Mormon missionaries vandalize and desecrate Catholic Shrine

[31_60rd0]

It’s the opinion of the prophet Spencer W Kimball, and can be found as the central theme of his opus The Miracle of Forgiveness.

amazon.com/dp/0884944441

President Kimball’s biography can be read here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencer_W._Kimball

It is interesting to see ashlon is another Latter-Day Saint who has no problem being deceptive or “spinning” to help the church. Hopefully those reading this discussion can get a firmer grasp on the principle of dishonesty in the service of “a higher form of honesty”. This is also known as “Lying for the Lord”.

mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord
youtube.com/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8

The doctrine on forgiveness is this, “I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.”

The Miracle of Forgiveness is about the individual gaining forgiveness of the Lord. Not on us forgiving others.

No one is perfect, we are not better than anyone else. We must forgive them or repent ourselves for not forgiving them.

 

[majick275]

You should forgive when someone has trespassed or crossed you. Please note that the above quote is just an opinion.

I’ll forgive anyone of these missionaries who sincerely apologizes. so far that’s none. (i give half credit to the one who regretted the incident but chose to remind everyone how persecuted the LDS are). I don’t hold the LDS church directly accountable. (some lingering issues about Mconkie’s doctrine but I can deal with that)

what I have the biggest issue with is the response of the LDS posters that I have seen at the SLT, MADB and even here. the supermajority of these indicates defiant lack of understanding (meaning they don’t WANT to underastand), a refusal to truly blame the guilty and hijacking of this incident to claim a superior right to victim status, some even going so far as to use this as justification to Catholics to repentance and demand that Catholics start actively defending the LDS against perceived persecution by any and all who would do so.

why can’t this be simple? LDS missionaries are told by LDS leaders who bothered to find out why this is so offensive to catholics. armed with that understanding said missionaries(all three/four) actually apologize for the specific offenses. The LDS mission president then explains how this happened and what he’s doing to prevent his missionaries from repeating this mistake. LDS who feel compelled to comment state unequivocally that these actions were wrong. They don’t “reverse the whip” or give a tired sound bite in a hurry to start preaching about their own persecution.The catholics accept this and THEN we all move on. (unless actual damage is proven then we add restitution to repair the damage and all else is the same)

sounds good to me.

 

[LaMar]

The doctrine on forgiveness is this, “I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.”

The Miracle of Forgiveness is about the individual gaining forgiveness of the Lord. Not on us forgiving others.

No one is perfect, we are not better than anyone else. We must forgive them or repent ourselves for not forgiving them.

No, it’s about gaining forgiveness period. Why not hold the LDS church to the same standard that it holds for its members?

I’m sure the Catholics will find the appearance of so many “new” posters, who arrive to “lie for the Lord” amusing.

 

[ashlon]

Lamar, You know what? I love you!

 

[majick275]

that’s cuz whyme keeps trying to threadswarm us on LDS boards

 

[PaulDupre]

Incidentally, are mishies really this sedentary these days, that they could weigh this much? Most of us on mine were starved to the very edge of life itself. When I first saw the photos, I had a hard time believing they weren’t actors. Missionaries today must have it fairly easy to look like that.

True. In my day (1977-1979) a mission was a sure way to lose weight. I left for my mission weighing 165 (my ideal weight) and came home at 123. My parents were aghast.

Paul

 

[LaMar]

that’s cuz whyme keeps trying to threadswarm us on LDS boards

LOL! That’s really funny, and doesn’t surprise me. How pathetic, that they need to shout down people who disagree with them.

There’s an LDS author named Grant Palmer who was disciplined for writing a book. (You get in much more trouble for thinking and writing than you do for desecrating a shrine). He has touched on the phenomenon of groupthink and the insecurity of individual members of the church whenever they enter into discussion with people who don’t bend over backwards for them.

For about a decade now, the LDS church has experienced a negative growth rate. New converts have had close to zero retention after only a few months, and 100,000 members leave the church every year. Palmer was an authority in the Church’s Education and Propaganda department. Those 100,000 are projected by Palmer to be the more intelligent, freethinking, autonomous members. This makes the church ever more extreme and insane looking, as the fanatics (like some on this forum) become more concentrated.

You can hear a good interview with Palmer here:
mormonstories.org/?p=92
His interview is quite lengthy, and split into 4 parts.

I wonder what Palmer would say about this latest round of lousy behavior in Colorado. Food for thought.

 

[zerinus]

One thing that ought to be mentioned in relation to this episode is that Mormons are totally unaware of the reverence with which Catholics (and some other churches) regard their altars. Mormon churches do not have altars. There is a table or desk from which the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper is administered; but it is seen just that—as a table. There is nothing sacred about the table. You can eat your lunch of the table, and nobody cares. But in Catholic eyes that would be considered sacrilege.

We do have altars in our temples; but there is nothing sacred about that either. You can change your baby’s nappy on the altar for all we care. We do not reverence the altar.

Those Mormon missionaries, one of whom was depicted sitting behind an altar preaching from the Book of Mormon, would not have had a clue that what they were doing would have been considered offensive by Catholics. In their own eyes they would not have thought that they were doing anything wrong. They thought they were having a bit of amusement, with photos which they thought they could take back from their missions as memorable experiences.

Perhaps in the future they will be better trained, so that they will not inadvertently do something that might give offense to other cultures or religions.

zerinus

 

[LaMar]

Perhaps in the future they will be better trained, so that they will not inadvertently do something that might give offense to other cultures or religions.

zerinus

What, you mean like “inadvertently” beheading statues honoring local heroes? Yeah, let’s hope so.

 

[why_me]

Personally, I think it’s a great book. I don’t know why we should be ashamed of it or try to minimize it. I just think the teachings in it ought to be applied uniformly, to the church as a whole as well as to individual members.

The Miracle of Forgiveness has received mixed reviews. I find it too harsh and I have heard that people did have issues with it when it was published. I am not sure just how much forgiveness was in that book. That being said, it is not doctrine and Spencer W. Kimball was not the prophet when he wrote it.

 

[why_me]

What, you mean like “inadvertently” beheading statues honoring local heroes? Yeah, let’s hope so.

It was almost two years since they discovered the statue was beheaded. I think that that does explain something about the statue. It could have already been beheaded before the missionaries got to the shine. How could a head stay on a statue for two years after it was beheaded?

 

[majick275]

One thing that ought to be mentioned in relation to this episode is that Mormons are totally unaware of the reverence with which Catholics (and some other churches) regard their altars. Mormon churches do not have altars. There is a table or desk from which the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper is administered; but it is seen just that—as a table. There is nothing sacred about the table. You can eat your lunch of the table, and nobody cares. But in Catholic eyes that would be considered sacrilege.

We do have altars in our temples; but there is nothing sacred about that either. You can change your baby’s nappy on the altar for all we care. We do not reverence the altar.

Those Mormon missionaries, one of whom was depicted sitting behind an altar preaching from the Book of Mormon, would not have had a clue that what they were doing would have been considered offensive by Catholics. In their own eyes they would not have thought that they were doing anything wrong. They thought they were having a bit of amusement, with photos which they thought they could take back from their missions as memorable experiences.

Perhaps in the future they will be better trained, so that they will not inadvertently do something that might give offense to other cultures or religions.

zerinus

you cannot be correct. Which mormons here think that using the altars in the temple ordinance rooms to change diapers on is okay please let us know.

Mormons are taught about altars for Adam (adam - ondhi ahman?) Abraham, temples. Anyone who read Packer’s book on the temple and anyone endowed (that includes all FT missionaries) would know altars are special. If two catholic seminarians in cassocks were going through a public tour of an LDS temple and took photos of them sacrificing each other on the altar in either an ordinance room or a sealing room and posting them on the internet would be loudly denounced as wicked by LDs (and rightfully so)

 

[majick275]

The Miracle of Forgiveness has received mixed reviews. I find it too harsh and I have heard that people did have issues with it when it was published. I am not sure just how much forgiveness was in that book. That being said, it is not doctrine and Spencer W. Kimball was not the prophet when he wrote it.

yet every bishop I have ever known uses it for church discipline. formal or informal.

 

[ibkc]

One thing that ought to be mentioned in relation to this episode is that Mormons are totally unaware of the reverence with which Catholics (and some other churches) regard their altars. Mormon churches do not have altars. There is a table or desk from which the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper is administered; but it is seen just that—as a table. There is nothing sacred about the table. You can eat your lunch of the table, and nobody cares. But in Catholic eyes that would be considered sacrilege.

We do have altars in our temples; but there is nothing sacred about that either. You can change your baby’s nappy on the altar for all we care. We do not reverence the altar.

Those Mormon missionaries, one of whom was depicted sitting behind an altar preaching from the Book of Mormon, would not have had a clue that what they were doing would have been considered offensive by Catholics. In their own eyes they would not have thought that they were doing anything wrong. They thought they were having a bit of amusement, with photos which they thought they could take back from their missions as memorable experiences.

zerinus, one of the photos showed one of the missionaries lying on the altar as a “sacrifice” and another missionary performing the “sacrifice.” I think that pretty well destroys your theory that these missionaries had no idea what an altar is for in the Catholic context.

 

[LaMar]

It was almost two years since they discovered the statue was beheaded. I think that that does explain something about the statue.

Yeah, it explains that for two years the LDS church has obfuscated and covered up the crime. Only now, after it becomes a national news story, have the brethren been forced to address it.

 

[zerinus]

you cannot be correct. Which mormons here think that using the altars in the temple ordinance rooms to change diapers on is okay please let us know.

Mormons are taught about altars for Adam (adam - ondhi ahman?) Abraham, temples. Anyone who read Packer’s book on the temple and anyone endowed (that includes all FT missionaries) would know altars are special. If two catholic seminarians in cassocks were going through a public tour of an LDS temple and took photos of them sacrificing each other on the altar in either an ordinance room or a sealing room and posting them on the internet would be loudly denounced as wicked by LDs (and rightfully so)

Believe it or not, Mormons haven’t a clue about altars in other churches, why they are there, and what functions they serve. To them it is just a slab of stone, and they haven’t a clue what it means.

zerinus

 

[majick275]

Believe it or not, Mormons haven’t a clue about altars in other churches, why they are there, and what functions they serve. To them it is just a slab of stone, and they haven’t a clue what it means.

zerinus

let’s put that to the test. how many mormons here think that an altar in a church is just a slab of stone with no particular significance?

I feel strange saying this but I don’t think mormons are that ignorant. I agree they don’t understand (or possibly care to understand) just HOW significant the altar is but I believe the average temple endowed mormon knows it isn’t just a slab of stone that you could "change nappies on ".

 

[PaulDupre]

In fact, anyone who has ever read the bible should understand the sacred nature of an altar.

 

[zerinus]

let’s put that to the test. how many mormons here think that an altar in a church is just a slab of stone with no particular significance?

I feel strange saying this but I don’t think mormons are that ignorant. I agree they don’t understand (or possibly care to understand) just HOW significant the altar is but I believe the average temple endowed mormon knows it isn’t just a slab of stone that you could "change nappies on ".

Agreed, let’s put that to the test. But how are you going to do that? Mormons here are faily knowledgable about other churches, especially the Catholic Church. I am talking about the average Mormon on the street. Do you want to conduct a survey? Good. When you have drawn up a set of suitable questions that we can both agree upon, and found an anti-Mormon whom I can trust to conduct the survery (which means nobody ), we can proceed.

zerinus

 

[ibkc]

zerinus,
Why did the missionaries play out a mock human sacrifice on the altar if they didn’t understand the significance of the altar?

Can you answer that, please?