Mormon missionaries vandalize and desecrate Catholic Shrine

[majick275]

Agreed, let’s put that to the test. But how are you going to do that? Mormons here are faily knowledgable about other churches, especially the Catholic Church. I am talking about the average Mormon on the street. Do you want to conduct a survey? Good. When you have drawn up a set of suitable questions that we can both agree upon, and found an anti-Mormon whom I can trust to conduct the survery (which means nobody ), we can proceed.

zerinus

so then you agree that you made an unfounded allegation.

 

[zerinus]

zerinus,
Why did the missionaries play out a mock human sacrifice on the altar if they didn’t understand the significance of the altar?

Can you answer that, please?

First of all I am not sure that they did. There have been pictures of them shown preaching from behind the altar, and there have been pictures of them shown holding the severed head; but I have seen no pictures showing them carrying out a mock sactifice on the altar. That could easily be a false accusation. Those who have been mindful enough to make copies of the other pictures to use as incriminating evidence against them, would not have missed to copy the one that depicts them making a mock sacrifice. So it is not at all certain that they did.

Assuming in the unlikely event that they might have done, that does not mean that they understood the significance of the altar in the worship of the Catholic Church. It means that they saw something that looked like an altar (such as depicted in the Book of Abraham for example) on which such a mock sacrifice could be performed. No sinister motive need be attributed to it.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

so then you agree that you made an unfounded allegation.

Certainly not. How did you manage to come to that ridiculous conclusion?

zerinus

 

[ibkc]

First of all I am not sure that they did. There have been pictures of them shown preaching from behind the altar, and there have been pictures of them shown holding the severed head; but I have seen no pictures showing them carrying out a mock sactifice on the altar. That could easily be a false accusation.

This was reported by the Salt Lake City press and it was not denied by the LDS spokesman.
From sltrib.com/portal/ci_8513613?_loopback=1

“A third photo showed one missionary pretending to sacrifice another on the altar at the Shrine of the Mexican Martyrs.”

I assume the photo of the mock sacrifice was not published because it was too inflammatory.

Those who have been mindful enough to make copies of the other pictures to use as incriminating evidence against them, would not have missed to copy the one that depicts them making a mock sacrifice. So it is not at all certain that they did.

Assuming in the unlikely event that they might have done, that does not mean that they understood the significance of the altar in the worship of the Catholic Church. It means that they saw something that looked like an altar (such as depicted in the Book of Abraham for example) on which such a mock sacrifice could be performed. No sinister motive need be attributed to it.

A mock human sacrifice is sinister and offensive by definition.

You continue to amaze me, zerinus.

 

[zerinus]

This was reported by the Salt Lake City press and it was not denied by the LDS spokesman.
From sltrib.com/portal/ci_8513613?_loopback=1
“A third photo showed one missionary pretending to sacrifice another on the altar at the Shrine of the Mexican Martyrs.”

There is no evidence. It could be a false accusation. I will accept it when I see the evidence.

I assume the photo of the mock sacrifice was not published because it was too inflammatory.

That is too much of an “assumption”. The enemies of the Church will look for any excuse to attack Mormonism. They have no interest in trying to hide it. The more “inflamatory” the evidence is from their point of view, the better.

A mock human sacrifice is sinister and offensive by definition.

You continue to amaze me, zerinus.

I am not surprised, and didn’t expect anything different from you either.

zerinus

 

[LaMar]

A mock human sacrifice is sinister and offensive by definition.

You continue to amaze me, zerinus.

I think it’s very sad to see Mormons represented by people of this miserable caliber.

In answer to your original question, I think the apologists might be half right. Of course we understand the significance of an altar, but at the same time we feel that this significance is evidence of the believer’s own stupidity and/or gullibility.

Again, Mormons are taught that other faiths are corrupt, and this idea of sacred space is one of the pieces of evidence of this teaching, along with paid clergy, iconography, statues, etc.

The defiling of the altar serves two simultaneous psychological purposes. It makes a mockery of the false religion, which is thought to be led by a conspiracy of people with Satan, and it also defines the desecrators as superior and different. The people who made a mock human sacrifice did so because at heart, that is the way they see the catholic ceremonies, as akin to something like a Satanic human sacrifice. At the same time, their mocking assured them that the Catholic God has no power over them, as they were symbolically calling down lightning and nothing happened.

All in all, these are faith promoting exercises for Mormons.

 

[PaulDupre]

That is too much of an “assumption”. The enemies of the Church will look for any excuse to attack Mormonism. They have no interest in trying to hide it. The more “inflamatory” the evidence is from their point of view, the better.

zerinus

Yes, persecution is the heritage of the faithful, don’t cha know.

 

[PaulDupre]

I think it’s very sad to see Mormons represented by people of this miserable caliber.

In answer to your original question, I think the apologists might be half right. Of course we understand the significance of an altar, but at the same time we feel that this significance is evidence of the believer’s own stupidity and/or gullibility.

Again, Mormons are taught that other faiths are corrupt, and this idea of sacred space is one of the pieces of evidence of this teaching, along with paid clergy, iconography, statues, etc.

The defiling of the altar serves two simultaneous psychological purposes. It makes a mockery of the false religion, which is thought to be led by a conspiracy of people with Satan, and it also defines the desecrators as superior and different. The people who made a mock human sacrifice did so because at heart, that is the way they see the catholic ceremonies, as akin to something like a Satanic human sacrifice. At the same time, their mocking assured them that the Catholic God has no power over them, as they were symbolically calling down lightning and nothing happened.

All in all, these are faith promoting exercises for Mormons.

LaMar,
You have great courage to be so intellectually honest. As a former LDS missionary, I agree with you.
Paul

 

[majick275]

Certainly not. How did you manage to come to that ridiculous conclusion?

zerinus

well you just outlined that you could come up with no way to prove this.

I’ll make the test easy though. you go to the “average” LDS in your ward and ask them if they were touring another denominations church that was open to the public and they saw that it had an altar if they think it is just a stone slab with no particular significance and then ask them if they were touring an LDS temple that was open to the public and had an infant with them who needed changing if it would be okay to use the altar in one of the sealing or ordinance rooms as a changing table. We’ll do this on the honor system. you go conduct that survey and let us know the results.

 

[zerinus]

well you just outlined that you could come up with no way to prove this.

I’ll make the test easy though. you go to the “average” LDS in your ward and ask them if they were touring another denominations church that was open to the public and they saw that it had an altar if they think it is just a stone slab with no particular significance and then ask them if they were touring an LDS temple that was open to the public and had an infant with them who needed changing if it would be okay to use the altar in one of the sealing or ordinance rooms as a changing table. We’ll do this on the honor system. you go conduct that survey and let us know the results.

That is the wrong question to ask. There is a name for that kind of question. It is called a “leading question”. You are already telling them the answer to the question before asking it. The right way to conduct such a servey is to show them several pictures of the inside of a Catholic Church, including some closeups of the altar, and ask them if they know what it is, what function it serves, how it is used, and if they thought the Catholics would be offended if you went up to it and touched it for example.

zerinus

 

[majick275]

That is the wrong question to ask. There is a name for that kind of question. It is called a “leading question”. You are already telling them the answer to the question before asking it. The right way to conduct such a servey is to show them several pictures of the inside of a Catholic Church, including some closeups of the altar, and ask them if they know what it is, what function it serves, how it is used, and if they thought the Catholics would be offended if you went up to it and touched it for example.

zerinus

how would that answer what YOU asserted? how is that related to mock sacrifice either? I don’t expect them to know what it’s for or how it’s used. I do believe we will find that they can see it has some significance and shouldn’t be the object of the actions depicted in the photos of this incident.(which is VERY different from just touching it) But I am also interested in testing your other assertion. I really want to know if the average LDS person who was received their endowments thinks it would be okay to change nappies on the altar in the temple.

 

[RC_Matt]

The rumor of Mormons thinking they are “superior” of others is not true. I have been raised to respect other religions and treat all people good and fairly. The above is just one false example of what is being used to downgrade religions. All religions have the same right to worship as they may. I met some of the finest people and they were Catholics in Brazil!

Why than, do you come to our homes, uninvited, to tell us that our faith is nothing but apostasy? Why have Mormons told me, including on this board, that I’m going to HELL because I have refused to convert to Mormonism? Now, I grant that not all Mormons think this way as individuals; but Mormon writings are FULL of condemnations of Christians, particularly Catholics. I really don’t think I have to tell you that. In fact, it is canonized Mormon scripture that all other churches are “abominations” and that “their professors are corrupt.” See Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith History, 1:18-19.

OF COURSE Mormons consider themselves superior, you have the “one true church” and the rest of us are “abominations in the sight of the lord.” I’m not saying that you personally believe this to be the case; however, it is what your church teaches and always has taught from its inception. This is precisely what gives rise to the attitude held by those missionaries (officially acknowledged representatives of the church) that the actions they took were acceptable, proper and sufficiently praiseworthy to be posted on the net for other Mormons to “enjoy.”

 

[LaMar]

LaMar,
You have great courage to be so intellectually honest. As a former LDS missionary, I agree with you.
Paul

Well, I appreciate the praise but I don’t think I’m worthy. I’ll print this out and keep it in my breast pocket for the day that I get up and start speaking openly at fast & testimony meeting…might happen, but it won’t be next month.

You seem like an interesting guy yourself. How is it that you came to pull up stakes and move over to the RC side?

I’ve seriously considered wandering away myself, possibly in the direction of the Episcopalians or the Unitarians. I keep hoping that the liberals will start standing up for themselves in Salt Lake City (there are some), but it never seems to happen.

I have a Grandma and a Mom and I don’t feel like taking the heat of leaving. Cowardly, but considerate; that’s me.

 

[PaulDupre]

I’ve seriously considered wandering away myself, possibly in the direction of the Episcopalians or the Unitarians. I keep hoping that the liberals will start standing up for themselves in Salt Lake City (there are some), but it never seems to happen.

I have a Grandma and a Mom and I don’t feel like taking the heat of leaving. Cowardly, but considerate; that’s me.

While you’re considering, have you looked into New Order Mormons? They are Mormons who don’t believe some or most of the LDS teachings but don’t want leave the church due to family, career or because they like the culture (hard for me to imagine). They have a website where you can learn about it.

God love you,
Paul

 

[bobzills]

Mormons are raised with a mocking and derisive attitude towards all things Catholic. It is hardly surprising that Mormon anti-Catholic indoctrination produces such results.

I don’t know why Mormons are going around invading Catholic Churches, mocking our religion, cutting the head off of our statues. Don’t they have anything else to do with their lives? Why are they not taught to respect private property?

 

[tal0n1987]

Thanks for your reply about a higher honesty lamar
clearly you fell aspleep in sunday school when the teacher said lying to outsiders was sacred. oorah to your honesty.
i thought it was funny how right after your explanation, a lot of examples and new members just sprang up out of nowhere. nothing quite like a good illustration to prove a point.

and if lying to outsiders is a sacred thing, i can also see why those missionaries, new members, and mormon leaders lack the courage to step up to the plate, act with a little humility, try to understand/admit what the three did was in the severest terms wrong and make amends instead of just trying to point the finger at other people who persecute them.

however, i dont understand how a belief system that claims to be christian and yet condones lying and bearing false witness to others, even to make itself look good, is really christian. Gods Church is a light for the world, a city upon a hill, is grounded on rock and not a bed of sand. or lies for that matter. Christ said He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. why would anyone at all, who is christian, need to lie to proclaim that to the world? whats the point of being a witness to outsiders, when you’re armed with deciet?
maybe to bait and switch?

and personally, i think them saying 5 Hail Mary’s is an excellent idea. which ever mormon over on the mormon thread who suggested that is clearly very very respectful of others faiths.

again, thanks for your insight. i look forward to reading more posts from you.

Semper Fidelis
Mike

 

[zerinus]

But I am also interested in testing your other assertion. I really want to know if the average LDS person who was received their endowments thinks it would be okay to change nappies on the altar in the temple.

Well, that was a bit of a hyperbole. Mormons don’t take their babies into those parts of the temple where an altar is likely to be found, so that situation will not arise. But in the unlikely event that it did, I don’t think that a Mormon would consider it committing “sacrilege” if they changed their baby’s nappies on the altar. We don’t worship the altar. Mormons are not like Catholics. Catholics will worship anything they can put their hands on—tables and chairs, icons, pictures, relics, the Shroud of Turin, dead men’s bones …—you name it, they will worship it! Mormons don’t. But since we respect other peoples’ religious beliefs, we don’t want to offend them in what they worship, even if we think it is wrong.

If you want to test that hypothesis, that is easy to do. Go and ask ten different endowed Mormons what they would think if they saw a woman in the temple changing her baby’s nappy on one of the altars there. Would they think that the woman was committing a terrible sacrilege, deserved to be banished from the temple immediately; or would they think that it was a bit of the mark, but no harm done either? See what they say.

zerinus

 

[tal0n1987]

…amazing…
since im catholic, i feel compelled to interupt you zerinus.
clearly you misunderstand the significance of the altar. or catholicism in general. the ignorance you just displayed is a perfect illustration of what so many on this thread have said about mormons and thier conduct towards catholics.

we dont worship the altar. but the altar is where the most sacred parts of the catholic faith take place. because it is where the bread and wine are prepared and ultimately become the Body and Blood of our Lord (the catholic/other christian Lord.). think about it. that is why the altar is sacred. catholics arent mormons, so you shouldnt try to understand the significance of the altar using your terms. no catholic would ever change thier baby on the altar, and with that said, mormons should repect that and realize that doing anything with the altar other than its intended purpose is highly disrepectful. maybe you dont hold the altar in such high regard, but that doesnt mean you should go out of your way to desecrate it. like you said, mormons arent catholics. that is essential if any sort of understanding is to come out of this.

as for worshipping what we get our hands on, thats just plain ignorant. if you have the time to make the accusation, then you should also take the time to do the research. i challenge you to go to catholic.org/encyclopedia/ and actualy do some research. “But since [you] respect other peoples’ religious beliefs” i expect you to do just that.
your post is dripping with respect

i wouldnt expect it to be wrong to change a baby on your altar. thats telling me just how sacred your faith or your place of woship really is. i guess if i ever go to one of your temples, i know i can change my kids diaper on the big diaper changing table/altar you have there. afterall, its not like anything sacred happens there anyways.

Semper Fidelis
Mike

 

[zaffiroborant]

how would that answer what YOU asserted? how is that related to mock sacrifice either? I don’t expect them to know what it’s for or how it’s used. I do believe we will find that they can see it has some significance and shouldn’t be the object of the actions depicted in the photos of this incident.(which is VERY different from just touching it)

The act of “mock” sacrifice shows they DID have an inkling as to the significance of the altar to Catholics. If they thought Catholics considered it a “table” as LDS do, it never would have occurred to them to portray it in a sacrificial manor. They understood it’s meaning and they meant to mock.

 

[RC_Matt]

We don’t worship the altar. Mormons are not like Catholics. Catholics will worship anything they can put their hands on—tables and chairs, icons, pictures, relics, the Shroud of Turin, dead men’s bones …—you name it, they will worship it!

zerinus

Dude, you are an ignorant bigot and you don’t even have a clue. Maybe you should go back to studying your Chick Tracts and stop posting here before you embarrass yourself further.