Mormon missionaries vandalize and desecrate Catholic Shrine

[PaulDupre]

Well, if anyone else feels that this desecration was promoted by a natural enmity between the two groups involved…

Not a natural enmity at all, but one that is carefully indoctrinated into Mormon children from birth. I saw it when I was LDS and now I see it in my Mormon nieces and nephews and grand-nieces and grand-nephews - a sick narcissism built on the teaching that they are Mormons because they were “valiant in the pre-existence” and therefore inherently better and more valuable than we are, whereas we “gentiles” were less than valiant before we were born, and are therefore spiritually inferior. So we were born into less-righteous, non-Mormon families.

Can any reasonable person be surprised at the behavior of these “valiant spirits” who desecrated the altar of a Catholic shrine? Or the valiant missionary who performed that shamefully racist lampoon of a local black minister.

Paul

 

[xulu]

Sorry, this turned out a little longer than expected.
I wasn’t born into the Mormon Church, I came into it at a later age, but growing up I have always felt the quiet joy that Christ is the Prince of Peace.
Setting aside doctrinal differences for the moment, I think all could agree with that.
We are taught “What would Jesus Do?”
I have a very difficult time picturing our Savior mocking a religious shrine of any kind like these three fools did.
Reading these stories here of some of what the Catholic people have encountered with Mormons is so contrary to what I have been taught I am wondering what church I really belong to.

Not to mention the stale and hollow apologies of the missionaries involved and my agreement that their sorrow is for merely getting caught.
I feel as though the church I belong to has been hijacked by a membership with a supremacist attitude, one which is definitely not shared by myself and others.
I know what I say will not sit well with some, especially those who obfuscate this issue, so deal with it.
In the past 30 years, there have been two great examples of what it means to have Christlike forgiveness- something which I am unsure I could be strong enough to do.
I would say the best one is when Pope John Paul II forgave his would be assassin.
How great a man could do that?
The second one, in my opinion, is when it was decided not to pursue the investigation in Colorado against the Mormon missionaries. (Sorry, I can’t recall the name of the Bishop involved).
Personally, I would have let things fall where they may, but I am not as forgiving.

 

[Jerusha]

Not to mention the stale and hollow apologies of the missionaries involved and my agreement that their sorrow is for merely getting caught.I feel as though the church I belong to has been hijacked by a membership with a supremacist attitude, one which is definitely not shared by myself and others.I know what I say will not sit well with some, especially those who obfuscate this issue, so deal with it.

The LDS church was hijacked a long time ago. It is only now that people are becoming aware of it. My sympathies and prayers are for all who are just now waking up.

 

[LaMar]

The LDS church was hijacked a long time ago. It is only now that people are becoming aware of it. My sympathies and prayers are for all who are just now waking up.

Hey Jerusha,

I wandered into an Easter Mass yesterday. From a Mormon perspective, it was very strange.

It was a Spanish language mass, and there didn’t appear to be a sermon or any real message. Just some scripture readings and then people went to the altar to get communion. I’m very proficient in Spanish but I’m open to the fact that I might have missed something important. It raised more questions than answers. I’ve been to the Episcopal church many times, and it was puzzling even in that context. It seemed like it started and then was done before it should have been.

Anyway, one Mormon went to atone for the childish behavior of others, in his own way.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hey Jerusha,

I wandered into an Easter Mass yesterday. From a Mormon perspective, it was very strange.

It was a Spanish language mass, and there didn’t appear to be a sermon or any real message. Just some scripture readings and then people went to the altar to get communion. I’m very proficient in Spanish but I’m open to the fact that I might have missed something important. It raised more questions than answers. I’ve been to the Episcopal church many times, and it was puzzling even in that context. It seemed like it started and then was done before it should have been.

Anyway, one Mormon went to atone for the childish behavior of others, in his own way.

What did you like about the Mass?

Also, the scripture readings are the message. And, usually there is a homily after the Reading of the Word. A Priest or Deacon would have stood at the lectern and taught something related to the scriptures, or, in some churches he might stand in front of the altar (some here will cringe at that).

 

[LaMar]

What did you like about the Mass?

Also, the scripture readings are the message. And, usually there is a homily after the Reading of the Word. A Priest or Deacon would have stood at the lectern and taught something related to the scriptures, or, in some churches he might stand in front of the altar (some here will cringe at that).

What’d I like? The aesthetics of it all.

The scripture readings were on topic (on the resurrection). I guess I was expecting it to be more similar to the Episcopal process, with a sermon or a message from the priest.

I also liked the fact that it was quick, there were less sit-kneel-stand acrobatics (again that’s an Episcopal tradition).

On the whole, compared to SacMtg., I find it much easier to have a meaningful spiritual experience at the Episcopal cathedral or the Reform temple (O, now I’ve done it) which vie as the alternate places I wander into on weekends. Sorta nice though.

The kids (there were many, and they were a little noisy) didn’t bother me. I’m used to that sort of thing.

 

[twopekinguys]

Hey Jerusha,

I wandered into an Easter Mass yesterday. From a Mormon perspective, it was very strange.

It was a Spanish language mass, and there didn’t appear to be a sermon or any real message. Just some scripture readings and then people went to the altar to get communion. I’m very proficient in Spanish but I’m open to the fact that I might have missed something important. It raised more questions than answers. I’ve been to the Episcopal church many times, and it was puzzling even in that context. It seemed like it started and then was done before it should have been.

Anyway, one Mormon went to atone for the childish behavior of others, in his own way.

It is very nice that you were at least open to the experience. That is above and beyond what many people would do.

The Mass can seem somewhat foreign to people that are unfamiliar with it, because it is somewhat different than what is experienced in many non-catholic worship services. One very interesting point that many people are unaware of is. If you attend Sunday Mass, every Sunday for 3 years, you will hear virtually the entire Bible.

Regretably, some churches will focus on just the New Testament, or the Old Testament, but we hear from all every Sunday. The first reading is the Old Testament, followed by a Psalm (responsorial), then a reading from one of the Epistles, and then from the Gospels.

I am sure that is more than you probably wanted to know, or encounter, but I hope it gives you a little more understanding.

God Bless

 

[ibkc]

The scripture readings were on topic (on the resurrection). I guess I was expecting it to be more similar to the Episcopal process, with a sermon or a message from the priest.

There usually is a sermon although Catholics call it the ‘homily.’ It rarely lasts very long, unlike in a typical Protestant setting. The priests at my church don’t speak for more than about 5-10 minutes tops and stay on topic with the week’s scriptural readings. The longest Catholic homily I have personally sat through was close to 40 minutes, but that was a serious rarity in my experience. The priest was very old and spoke slowly.

 

[RebeccaJ]

What’d I like? The aesthetics of it all.

The scripture readings were on topic (on the resurrection). I guess I was expecting it to be more similar to the Episcopal process, with a sermon or a message from the priest.

I also liked the fact that it was quick, there were less sit-kneel-stand acrobatics (again that’s an Episcopal tradition).

On the whole, compared to SacMtg., I find it much easier to have a meaningful spiritual experience at the Episcopal cathedral or the Reform temple (O, now I’ve done it) which vie as the alternate places I wander into on weekends. Sorta nice though.

The kids (there were many, and they were a little noisy) didn’t bother me. I’m used to that sort of thing.

That is what I liked about the first Mass I went to as well. The ritual. And I liked the prayers. I was atheist at the time and so it was, like you say, very strange. The Episcopal liturgy was harder for me to “get” than the Catholic, but then, I was having a hard time with it all at first.

Go again. Choose a different parish, or an English speaking Mass. I did that for a while, while also dropping in on the Episcopalians and Unitarian Universalists now and again too. And I was reading a lot of online material. For me, the roots of the Roman Catholic church is what made the difference.

And I’ll, add, as a Mormon you get trained to ask God if something is “true”. I wasn’t so good at prayer and so I stuck with one prayer, God, lead me to you. And once I was there, I asked God to lead me to where he wants me to be. He surprised me a couple of times.

 

[RC_Matt]

Hey Jerusha,

I wandered into an Easter Mass yesterday. From a Mormon perspective, it was very strange.

It was a Spanish language mass, and there didn’t appear to be a sermon or any real message. Just some scripture readings and then people went to the altar to get communion. I’m very proficient in Spanish but I’m open to the fact that I might have missed something important. It raised more questions than answers. I’ve been to the Episcopal church many times, and it was puzzling even in that context. It seemed like it started and then was done before it should have been.

Anyway, one Mormon went to atone for the childish behavior of others, in his own way.

Easter Sunday Masses are a little different than the normal Sunday Mass. They are usually crowded, which makes for a more lengthy Communion process. And, to be honest, you also have a lot of people who don’t regularly attend Mass, therefore are unfamiliar with the proper order to leave and return to their pews, and they can cause real chaos. Same deal on Christmas, Ash Wednesday and Palm Sunday; they’re the “A & P Catholics” (ashes and palms). You also have the annual renewal of baptismal promises. All of this cuts into the time normally available for the Homily (sermon) and it may therefore be abbreviated, particularly if there is another Mass scheduled. It was the same at the Mass I attended yesterday, the Homily was very brief. Normally, the Priest will explain the three readings; explain how they relate to each other, and how we can apply the lessons to our lives. The entire Bible, both the Old and New Testaments, is covered in a three year cycle.

Most Parishes are diocesan, meaning that they are under the local diocese and the Priests do not belong to particular religious orders (like Franciscans, Silesians, Passionists, etc.). Some parishes, however, do fall under a specific religious order. If you want to hear some outstanding Homilies, find a Jesuit Parish. Similarly, if you ever want to discuss theology on a high cerebral level, go see a Jesuit Priest (they will not try to convert you). It requires a high degree of intelligence and many years of education to become a Jesuit and, in my experience, they are also extremely affable. You can call your local diocesan office and inquire if there is one in your area. From what I’ve read of your posts, I think you might have a mutually enjoyable and worthwhile conversation (and that’s a compliment by the way).

 

[rich123456]

The Scripture that is read at Mass should be studied in its full context prior to attending. We have three readings. One from the Old Testement and two from the New. Again these reading need to be studied and meditated on. We have a Thursday night Bible study here in Utah to go over the up coming Sunday readings. Mass is strange to those who attend for the first time. I remember! But it is also two thousand years old. The core of it has not changed, the Last Supper. “Do this in memory of me”

Very familiar to these souls as well
catholic.org/saints/stindex.php
God Bless
www.utahmission.com

 

[why_me]

But yet, that is what you keep doing…Blaming everyone else, but those who did this.

Once again, you are straying off the subject. Exactly what does being Irish have to do with Mormon Missionaries desecrating a Catholic Shrine? Obviously, I am not following your connection of the two.

Hardly, but some of the catholics on this thread have been playing the ‘holier than thou’ game. I seek forgiveness and not hatred but the hatred by the former mormons of the mormon church is quite one sided and ridiculous. I see no foregiveness in their posts at all and I must say that such an attitude is not representative of the catholic church. Three young men commited a gross act. End of story. But the former mormons now ‘catholics’ seek to make it a big issue. Sorry that game doesn’t play.

 

[why_me]

What did you like about the Mass?

Also, the scripture readings are the message. And, usually there is a homily after the Reading of the Word. A Priest or Deacon would have stood at the lectern and taught something related to the scriptures, or, in some churches he might stand in front of the altar (some here will cringe at that).

The scripture readings become relevant when the reader makes the scriptures relevant. I gave the first reading during Easter Mass and I always try to read the scripture slowly and with intent. But some readers just read as if they are reading a novel and wish to get it over with as soon as possible.

 

[why_me]

Sorry, this turned out a little longer than expected.
I wasn’t born into the Mormon Church, I came into it at a later age, but growing up I have always felt the quiet joy that Christ is the Prince of Peace.

Reading these stories here of some of what the Catholic people have encountered with Mormons is so contrary to what I have been taught I am wondering what church I really belong to.

What the catholic people have encountered on this section of the forum might not be the whole truth but a one sided slant to suit their purposes. I would go by your own experiences in the lds church and leave it at that. I have also not experienced what the unforgiving catholics on this section of the forum have experienced with the lds church. My daughters are mormons and they are taught to love all people as christ commanded in the bible.

If you go to a protestant forum and there are former catholics on that forum, you will discover a one-sided slant to the former catholic posts which would also make you wonder about the exeriences that you have had with catholics and with the catholic church. People have agendas and it becomes important to see the agenda.

 

[why_me]

this is astounding!!! the mormon church claims to call these guys by revelation from God first to ordained elders in their church, then to be called on a mission to a specific place. they are then sent through their temple and given what is claimed to be a divinely revealed endowment of holy power where they make what are considered to be binding covenants with God and yet if they go and choose to use their mission as an opportunity to desecrate a catholic shrine we are supposed to believe that’s okay, no big deal just boys goofing off because catholics in ireland are alcoholics and priests abuse children and everyone who is offended by this is guilty of far worse and they wouldn’t be think this a big deal anyway if they weren’t “mormon-haters”…

well whyme with his fraudulent claims and unfounded assertions has shown us all even better than his partner zerinus just what mormons are all about. thank you both between the two of you there should be no doubt for anyone here that mormonism is false. yuo have done an excellent job of proving that.

Not quite. What I am saying is that no one is perfect and imperfection is a part of the human condition. It matters not if one is a catholic priest or a mormon missionary, they are not perfect and they will make mistakes. I have seen people in the missionary age group act stupid regardless of their religous background.

The thread has become too long and it no longer as validation. We all must wait for the story to unfold and see what happens.

The antimormons on this thread have much bigotry inside them and this is not representative of the catholic church at all. The catholics that I know in my parish have no bigotry about mormons. They may have misunderstandings but no bigotry and if they did have bigotry, Iwould set them straight fast.

 

[RC_Matt]

I gave the first reading during Easter Mass

Dude, as people here have told you before, that’s sacrilege; in fact it’s the same thing as what those missionary guys did. If you can’t understand what’s wrong there, you need to have a serious conversation with the Parish Priest and honestly explain your testimony and defense of the Book of Mormon and your encouragement of Catholics to have discussions with Mormon missionaries.

 

[majick275]

The scripture readings become relevant when the reader makes the scriptures relevant. I gave the first reading during Easter Mass and I always try to read the scripture slowly and with intent. But some readers just read as if they are reading a novel and wish to get it over with as soon as possible.

you are mormon so your readings are scandalous.

 

[majick275]

Hardly, but some of the catholics on this thread have been playing the ‘holier than thou’ game. I seek forgiveness and not hatred but the hatred by the former mormons of the mormon church is quite one sided and ridiculous. I see no foregiveness in their posts at all and I must say that such an attitude is not representative of the catholic church. Three young men commited a gross act. End of story. But the former mormons now ‘catholics’ seek to make it a big issue. Sorry that game doesn’t play.

actually we just want these 3 men to apologize for what they did. to date only one has and he didn’t say he was sorry nor did he give any indication that he understood what it was he had done. he just used it to express regret that it happened since the LDS are persecuted. what we have seen from the mormons (who are by definition anticatholic) is an attack for being offended and a lot of pontificating about how persecuted they are. THAT is what is so one sided and ridiculous.

 

[majick275]

What the catholic people have encountered on this section of the forum might not be the whole truth but a one sided slant to suit their purposes. I would go by your own experiences in the lds church and leave it at that. I have also not experienced what the unforgiving catholics on this section of the forum have experienced with the lds church. My daughters are mormons and they are taught to love all people as christ commanded in the bible.

If you go to a protestant forum and there are former catholics on that forum, you will discover a one-sided slant to the former catholic posts which would also make you wonder about the exeriences that you have had with catholics and with the catholic church. People have agendas and it becomes important to see the agenda.

yes people do have agendas. you have made yours apparent. anyone who goes to the mormon missionary forums that you keep advertising can see your devotion to joseph smith. that you continue to pretend to be catholic indicates deception on your part as well as an anticatholic bigotry in your attempts to win converts (or at least sympathizers) to mormonism. we do love all people that’s why we work so hard to keep them out of mormonism. it imperils their souls. we must warn them. catholic parents have an obligation to raise their children catholic. catholic people have an obligation to promote and defend the catholic faith for the good of ALL people. (not just the white and delightsome ones)

 

[majick275]

Not quite. What I am saying is that no one is perfect and imperfection is a part of the human condition. It matters not if one is a catholic priest or a mormon missionary, they are not perfect and they will make mistakes. I have seen people in the missionary age group act stupid regardless of their religous background.

The thread has become too long and it no longer as validation. We all must wait for the story to unfold and see what happens.

The antimormons on this thread have much bigotry inside them and this is not representative of the catholic church at all. The catholics that I know in my parish have no bigotry about mormons. They may have misunderstandings but no bigotry and if they did have bigotry, Iwould set them straight fast.

i believe you misuse these emotionally loaded words. one must choose what is right. that is NOT bigotry. the catholic church discriminates against many beliefs and behaviors. that is a GOOD thing. catholics cannot accept mormon doctrine nor can they stand idly by and watch people go into the mormon religion without any thought to their souls. we ARE our brothers keepers. do you think it’s wrong to be anti-satanist? anti-pagan? are laws against polygamy bigotry? what about gay marriage? isn’t speaking out against that bigotry?

if you study the history and doctrine of the catholic church you will find that it IS representative of the catholic church to denounce false doctrines, false prophets and to claim it to be the one holy catholic and apostolic church that christ founded. the only assurance of salvation is through the sacraments within it.