Mormon Patriarchal Blessing?

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Zerinus wrote in #31: ““Christianity apostatized. That is the long and short of it. There is no question about that. There will be no compromise on that one. Too bad you don’t like it. It is true.””

Zerinus, this is the most pathetic thing you’ve ever done. Apart from defending polygamy, that is.

You’ve provided no EVIDENCE, Zerinus/chasjohn. Your saying so is not EVIDENCE.

Too bad chasjohn isn’t really a lawyer who can produce evidence for his case. I have to wonder about a lawyer who could be so gullible.
 
Christianity apostatized. That is the long and short of it. There is no question about that. There will be no compromise on that one. Too bad you don’t like it. It is true.

zerinus
Hey Chasjohn! He’s your witness! Such calm reasoning, such careful delineation of the “facts,” such hooey.
 
You are nuts.

zerinus
I am nuts for the Lord, Zerinus, a concept with which you are thoroughly unfamiliar.

I take a charge of apostasy very seriously. I don’t appreciate it, and I know others here don’t appreciate it, either. Especially when it is so unprovable, and the people making the charge are such mental midgets.

Why don’t you just crawl back into the dark space under the stove and try to stay cool there. It is obvious to all that you can’t take the heat of the kitchen, either.
 
Evidence of the Apostacy is too lengthly to be set forth here; but those who have a sincere interest can find some information here:
fairlds.org/Mormonism_201/m20106.html
Thank you. Finally, there is something more than a burning bosom to grope. I am reading this, but I must say at the outset that it doesn’t appear to be much in the way of proof, though I might change my mind as I progress through it. It is an article written by someone named Barry Brickmore and is a specific critique of a book called Mormonism 101 by some evangelicals named McKeever and Johson. What I’ve read so far is specific to this book, with which I am unfamiliar. However, the author does give his definition of the apostasy, this way:

““the doctrine of the apostasy does not imply that everyone outside the Church of Jesus Christ is going to hell. It does not preclude the many beliefs and values we hold in common with other Christians. However, it does imply that the doctrines of other religions are in a number of ways corrupt, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only authorized Church of Jesus Christ upon the Earth. When we interact with our neighbors of other Christian faiths, our leaders encourage us not to be judgmental, but to build on common ground.””

Careful reading of this paragraph by Mr. Brickmore will reveal that the apostasy doctrine doesn’t imply that “everyone” outside the LDS is going to hell, but neither does it imply that most are not. Moreover, McConkie in Mormon Doctrine writes on page 44:

““With the loss of the gospel, the nations of the earth went into a moral eclipse called the Dark Ages. Apostasy was universal…‘and this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel’ (Doctines of Salvation, vol 3 pp. 265-326, attribution by McConkie).””

Therefore, it seems apparent even from this superficial view, that there is some wishy-washiness among Mormons as to what the word UNIVERSAL means. My understanding of the word UNIVERSAL is that it means everyone, everywhere, and I believe, based on my own conversations with Mormons, that Mormons believe that all Christians are apostate, then, and now. Let us therefore dispense with any need for polite chit-chat and just admit that Mormons, like the troll Zerinus, believe that all believing Catholics are doomed to hell, are apostate, and will remain so until they “come to a knowledge of the restored gospel.” Whether this is true of chasjohn remains to be seen, because he has not yet expressed himself on the subject as definitively as has Zerinus.
 
well let’s be very detailed and accurate. Mormons DON’T believe that Catholics or anyone else is necessarily going to “hell”.

The Telestial kingdom will be populated with murderers, thieves and liars, the terrestrial kingdom will have those who weren’t valiant and those who were blinded by the craftiness of men. That will cover most mormons and non-mormons. Those who were good mormons but somehow didn’t quite get everything right will be in the celestial kingdom as servants to the exalted. (the ones who become Gods)
The only mormon equivalent to hell is “outer darkness” which is reserved for the “sons of perdition”. these are ones with a “perfect knowledge” who made a fully informed CHOICE to follow Satan. (shedding of innocent blood is unforgiveable in mormon doctrine but doesn’t doom one to hell, just the telestial kingdom) Many mormons like to class apostates (their definition being those who apostatized from the LDs church) in this category but the actual doctrine would only place satanic apostates there. So a former LDs who left to become a devout Catholic would probable end up in the terrestrial kingdom. one who just left the LDS church and lived a “wordly” lifestyle would go to the telestial.

Of course a literal interpretation of the D&c says that if you were sealed in the temple and shed no innocent blood then you go through a purgatory like phase (the buffetings of Satan) and then go to the celestial kingdom.

As far as Christians who were never LDS? Mormons believe some will convert in the next life and the rest will go to o9ne of the lower kingdoms as I showed above.

(reference D&C 76 and 88)
 
Therefore, it seems apparent even from this superficial view, that there is some wishy-washiness among Mormons as to what the word UNIVERSAL means. My understanding of the word UNIVERSAL is that it means everyone, everywhere, and I believe, based on my own conversations with Mormons, that Mormons believe that all Christians are apostate, then, and now. Let us therefore dispense with any need for polite chit-chat and just admit that Mormons, like the troll Zerinus, believe that all believing Catholics are doomed to hell, are apostate, and will remain so until they “come to a knowledge of the restored gospel.” Whether this is true of chasjohn remains to be seen, because he has not yet expressed himself on the subject as definitively as has Zerinus.
You are lying through your teeth when you say that this is what I believe. I have discussed this very subject with you at great length elsewhere, and repeatedly told you that that is not what I belive. Quit telling lies about me foolish weatherman. It won’t help your cause any.

zerinus
 
Going forward in the Brickman article linked by chasjohn:

““As explained earlier, when Latter-day Saints say there was a “complete” apostasy, we do not mean that every single Christian personally rebelled against God. Rather, the rebellion, along with outside persecution, was extensive enough that the earthly Church organization was in a shambles, and was taken over by hostile forces. God allowed this because the culture was not prepared to allow the pure Gospel message to flourish in its midst, so God allowed a somewhat watered-down version to be substituted.””

This is easy to disprove from the witness of history. It is a historical fact that as the Roman Empire collapsed in the 4th and 5th centuries, it was the Catholic Church, especially through the agency of the monasteries, under the governance of Popes and bishops, whose names we know, that preserved civilization in the remains of the Empire. It was these Catholics who converted the invading barbarians and other invaders over to Christianity, which ultimately led to the conversion of Constantine, which ultimately led to the establishment of Christendom. If this Catholic Church were truly UNIVERSALLY apostate as these puny Mormons assert, there would have been no monasteries, no Popes, no bishops, no martyrs. No one dies for a lie that they know in their breast is a lie. No one who has RENOUNCED THE FAITH dies for that faith. Therefore, there could not have been an apostasy of the nature claimed by the Mormons.

The Mormons cannot present an iota of evidence that the Catholic Church organization was “in a shambles.” In fact, the historical evidence proves otherwise. No organization “in a shambles” would have been able to overcome the forces that were feeding on the remains of the Roman Empire by CONVERTING THEM TO CHRISTIANITY and teaching them how to be city dwellers and agriculturalists instead of roaming hoards of looters and rapers. This is what the monks did. They taught the pagan invaders civilization, and did so under the authority of Jesus Christ our Savior, thus converting them into the True Faith, a faith we inherited from these great men and women.

The Mormon claims are without evidentiary merit, and are illogical, and actually just downright stupid if you want to know the bare bones truth of it. One would have to be stupid and ignorant of history to accept these apostasy lies as truth.

More, later…
 
Whatever you do, you don’t want to bother a Mormon with DNA and our knowledge of racially-shared chromosomes, loci, and alleles. That whole science has blown away their whole reason for existence - their and Native Americans’ “heritage” from Israel.

Oh, well, at least they didn’t get it all out of a pulp fiction sci-fi paperback. That’s another crew.
 
You are lying through your teeth when you say that this is what I believe. I have discussed this very subject with you at great length elsewhere, and repeatedly told you that that is not what I belive. Quit telling lies about me foolish weatherman. It won’t help your cause any.

zerinus
Zerinus, don’t MAKE me go back and find quotes from you that would make you appear like a prevaricator.
 
Great. I notice you didn’t “find” any of the posts in which you stated that we Catholics are members of an apostate, dead religion and are going to hell. I don’t have time right now to look for them, but if you want me to do it, I will do it later. Will it be necessary?
 
BTW, Zerinus, I thought you had me set on ignore. How many times have you stated that you will not respond to any more of my posts? Why is it that you can’t stick to your word?

FYI, I don’t care at all that you ignore me. You and chasjohn must think that we Catholics get upset when you ignore us. Not at all. In fact, I prefer it. So, if you want to go back into ignore mode, go right on ahead, and maybe this time make a stronger effort at keeping it up.
 
amgid ignores me because I proved he was wrong from his own posts and he had to eat crow. then he came back as zerinus (who appears to be more than one person) he hasn’t responded to me but I am quick to point out his false teachings whenever he pops up with one.

Zerinus it is YOU who aren’t fooling anyone here. 😃
 
Great. I notice you didn’t “find” any of the posts in which you stated that we Catholics are members of an apostate, dead religion and are going to hell. I don’t have time right now to look for them, but if you want me to do it, I will do it later. Will it be necessary?
Yes, it will be necessary. I have never said that you are all going to hell. That is another big lie by you about me. Find it if you can. I am all eyes and ears.

zerinus
 
More from the Brickman article linked by chasjohn:

""The New Testament is absolutely clear that a major apostasy was already underway at that time, and was to culminate after the passing of the apostles. Paul told the Ephesian elders, "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."14 Paul chastised the Galatian Christians for turning away "unto another gospel,"15 and warned the Corinthians against “false Apostles” who were among them.16 Just prior to the end of his life, he complained to Timothy that "all they which are in Asia be turned away from me.“17 The seriousness of the situation can only be appreciated when one realizes that Asia Minor was where most of the Christian converts had been made during this early period.18"”

I’m not going to bother with picking through the Biblical citations. Here’s why: First, I am not a Biblical scholar, and therefore I do not engage in Biblical arguments, because if I did, I’d make too many mistakes. Second, it isn’t necessary. The writer here is trying to prove from the Bible that a UNIVERSAL apostasy was already underway during Apostolic times. The arguments seem pretty good, on the surface. However, I’ve seen them disproved before by other people more knowledgable about Bible than I am. Rather, I go on the historical evidence, some of which I’ve presented earlier. We know from history that it was the Catholic Church which preserved learning and civilization as the Roman Empire collapsed. It was the Catholic Church which converted the barbarians and other pagan invaders. It was the Catholic Church which rebuilt Rome and established Christendom, which within a very short time encompassed all of Europe, beat back the Moslems, reclaimed Spain from the Moors (that took about 700 years, so it was no easy task). Speaking of Spain, even under Moslem political and religious domination, the Catholic Church did not die. It lived underground and prospered, and in 1492 consummated the reconquest of Spain under devout Catholic monarchs. And, speaking of 1492, in that year a devout Catholic seaman, Admiral of the Ocean Sea, named Columbus, financed by those devout Catholic Spanish monarchs, discovered the Americas, which began the conversion of the American natives to Christianity.

The many great Popes, Bishops, theologians, men and women of God, all Catholics, some heretics, are far too numerous to mention here even in passing. But, suffice to say that they lived, they were Catholic, they were devout, we know who they were from what they wrote and the effects they wrought upon European and human history. Again, when a man renounces his belief, whatever it may be, whether communism, nazism, Mormonism, Catholicism, etc, he will not die for that thing. The Christians that these Mormons accuse of apostasy put their entire lives on the line for Jesus, for the Catholic Church. To accuse them of apostasy is a flagrant lie, an insult, a spit in their faces, and calls for a denunciation of those who make such accusations.
 
Whatever you do, you don’t want to bother a Mormon with DNA and our knowledge of racially-shared chromosomes, loci, and alleles. That whole science has blown away their whole reason for existence - their and Native Americans’ “heritage” from Israel
I assume what you are talking about here is the Mormon contention that some native americans descend from the House of Israel.

The Book of Mormon tells of three small groups [families] who migrated from the Middle East to the American Continent in ancient times. One, Jared and his family, came at the time of the Tower of Babel. Another, Lehi and his family, came about 600BC. The third are the Mulekites, who came at the time of King Zedekiah.

These groups, and their descendants, were some of the people who inhabited ancient america. They did not comprise all of the inhabitants, or even a majority.

The DNA studies that show that some of the native americans do not have the blood of Israel, does not prove that there was no such blood in ancient America.
 
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