Mormon/Polygamy question

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I personally feel that Brigham Young had a lot of responsibility keeping all these wives. In this sermon, you can tell how hen-pecked he was feeling by all these wives, he offers to set them free and take care of them. He just wants them to quit whining!

From Journal of Discourses:
Now for my proposition; it is more particularly for my sisters, as it is frequently happening that women say they are unhappy. Men will say, ‘My wife, though a most excellent woman, has not seen a happy day since I took my second wife;’ ‘No, not a happy day for a year,’ says one; and another has not seen a happy day for five years. It is said that women are tied down and abused: that they are misused and have not the liberty they Ought to have; that many of them are wading through a perfect flood of tears, because of the conduct of some men, together with their own folly.
Code:
"I wish my own women to understand that what I am going to say is for them as well as others, and I want those who are here to tell their sisters, yes, all the women of this community, and then write it back to the States, and do as you please with it. I am going to give you from this time to the 6th day of October next, for reflection, that you may determine whether you wish to stay with your husbands or not, and then I am going to set every woman at liberty and say to them, Now go your way, my women with the rest, go your way. And my wives have got to do one of two things; either round up their shoulders to endure the afflictions of this world, and live their religion, or they may leave, for I will not have them about me. I will go into heaven alone, rather than have scratching and fighting around me. I will set all at liberty. 'What, first wife too?' Yes, I will liberate you all.

"I know what my women will say; they will say, 'You can have as many women as you please, Brigham.' But I want to go somewhere and do something to get rid of the whiners; I do not want them to receive a part of the truth and spurn the rest out of doors.

"I wish my women, and brother Kimball's and brother Grant's to leave, and every woman in this Territory, or else say in their hearts that they will embrace the Gospel—the whole of it. Tell the Gentiles that I will free every woman in this Territory at our next Conference. 'What, the first wife too?' Yes, there shall not be one held in bondage, all shall be set free. And then let the father be the head of the family, the master of his own household; and let him treat them as an angel would treat them; and let the wives and the children say amen to what he says, and be subject to his dictates, instead of their dictating the man, instead of their trying to govern him.

"No doubt some are thinking, 'I wish brother Brigham would say what would become of the children.' I will tell you what my feelings are; I will let my wives take the children, and I have property enough to support them, and can educate them, and then give them a good fortune, and I can take a fresh start.

"I do not desire to keep a particle of my property, except enough to protect me from a state of nudity. And I would say, wives you are welcome to the children, only do not teach them iniquity; for if you do, I will send an Elder, or come myself, to teach them the Gospel. You teach them life and salvation, or I will send Elders to instruct them.

"Let every man thus treat his wives, keeping raiment enough to clothe his body; and say to your wives, 'Take all that I have and be set at liberty; but if you stay with me you shall comply with the law of God, and that too without any murmuring and whining. You must fulfil the law of God in every respect, and round up your shoulders to walk up to the mark without any grunting.'

"Now recollect that two weeks from to morrow I am going to set you at liberty. But the first wife will say, 'It is hard, for I have lived with my husband twenty years, or thirty, and have raised a family of children for him, and it is a great trial to me for him to have more women;' then I say it is time that you gave him up to other women who will bear children. If my wife had borne me all the children that she ever would bare, the celestial law would teach me to take young women that would have children. ...

"This is the reason why the doctrine of plurality of wives was revealed, that the noble spirits which are waiting for tabernacles might be brought forth. ...

"Sisters, I am not joking, I do not throw out my proposition to banter your feelings, to see whether you will leave your husbands, all or any of you. But I do know that there is no cessation to the everlasting whining of many of the women in this Territory; I am satisfied that this is the case. ... " 'But,' says one, 'I want to have my paradise now.' And says another, 'I did think I should be in paradise if I was sealed to brother Brigham, and I thought I should be happy when I became his wife, or brother Heber's. I loved you so much, that I thought I was going to have a heaven right off, right here on the spot.'

"What a curious doctrine it is, that we are preparing to enjoy! The only heaven for you is that which you make yourselves. My heaven is here—[laying his hand upon his heart]. I carry it with me. When do I expect it in its perfection? When I come up in the resurrection; then I shall have it, and not till then. ...

"But the women come and say, 'Really brother John, and brother William, I thought you were going to make a heaven for me,' and they get into trouble because a heaven is not made for them by the men, even though agency is upon women as well as upon men. True there is a curse upon the woman that is not upon the man, namely, that 'her whole affections shall be towards her husband,' and what is the next? 'He shall rule over you.'

"But how is it now? Your desire is to your husband, but you strive to rule over him, whereas the man should rule over you.

"Some may ask whether that is the case with me; go to my house and live, and then you will learn that I am very kind, but know how to rule. ...

"Prepare yourselves for two weeks from to morrow; and I will tell you now, that if you will tarry with your husbands, after I have set you free, you must bow down to it, and submit yourselves to the celestial law. You may go where you please, after two weeks from to-morrow; but, remember, that I will not hear any more of this whining." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, 1856, pp. 55-57)
 
Notice BY’s words: “my women”. Yuck! Sure glad my husband doesn’t refer to me as “my woman”.

And it hardly seems like a free choice (seems as if BY knew that there was no choice for the poor women and he himself was just whining and complaining and simpy chose this way to do it) since according to the D&C the women had to accept polygamy or loose any hope of salvation.
 
I personally feel that Brigham Young had a lot of responsibility keeping all these wives. In this sermon, you can tell how hen-pecked he was feeling by all these wives, he offers to set them free and take care of them. He just wants them to quit whining!

From Journal of Discourses:
Now for my proposition; it is more particularly for my sisters, as it is frequently happening that women say they are unhappy. Men will say, ‘My wife, though a most excellent woman, has not seen a happy day since I took my second wife;’ ‘No, not a happy day for a year,’ says one; and another has not seen a happy day for five years. It is said that women are tied down and abused: that they are misused and have not the liberty they Ought to have; that many of them are wading through a perfect flood of tears, because of the conduct of some men, together with their own folly.

"I wish my own women to understand that what I am going to say is for them as well as others, and I want those who are here to tell their sisters, yes, all the women of this community, and then write it back to the States, and do as you please with it. I am going to give you from this time to the 6th day of October next, for reflection, that you may determine whether you wish to stay with your husbands or not, and then I am going to set every woman at liberty and say to them, Now go your way, my women with the rest, go your way. And my wives have got to do one of two things; either round up their shoulders to endure the afflictions of this world, and live their religion, or they may leave, for I will not have them about me. I will go into heaven alone, rather than have scratching and fighting around me. I will set all at liberty. ‘What, first wife too?’ Yes, I will liberate you all.

"I know what my women will say; they will say, ‘You can have as many women as you please, Brigham.’ But I want to go somewhere and do something to get rid of the whiners; I do not want them to receive a part of the truth and spurn the rest out of doors.

"I wish my women, and brother Kimball’s and brother Grant’s to leave, and every woman in this Territory, or else say in their hearts that they will embrace the Gospel—the whole of it. Tell the Gentiles that I will free every woman in this Territory at our next Conference. ‘What, the first wife too?’ Yes, there shall not be one held in bondage, all shall be set free. And then let the father be the head of the family, the master of his own household; and let him treat them as an angel would treat them; and let the wives and the children say amen to what he says, and be subject to his dictates, instead of their dictating the man, instead of their trying to govern him.

"No doubt some are thinking, ‘I wish brother Brigham would say what would become of the children.’ I will tell you what my feelings are; I will let my wives take the children, and I have property enough to support them, and can educate them, and then give them a good fortune, and I can take a fresh start.

"I do not desire to keep a particle of my property, except enough to protect me from a state of nudity. And I would say, wives you are welcome to the children, only do not teach them iniquity; for if you do, I will send an Elder, or come myself, to teach them the Gospel. You teach them life and salvation, or I will send Elders to instruct them.

"Let every man thus treat his wives, keeping raiment enough to clothe his body; and say to your wives, ‘Take all that I have and be set at liberty; but if you stay with me you shall comply with the law of God, and that too without any murmuring and whining. You must fulfil the law of God in every respect, and round up your shoulders to walk up to the mark without any grunting.’

"Now recollect that two weeks from to morrow I am going to set you at liberty. But the first wife will say, ‘It is hard, for I have lived with my husband twenty years, or thirty, and have raised a family of children for him, and it is a great trial to me for him to have more women;’ then I say it is time that you gave him up to other women who will bear children. If my wife had borne me all the children that she ever would bare, the celestial law would teach me to take young women that would have children. …

"This is the reason why the doctrine of plurality of wives was revealed, that the noble spirits which are waiting for tabernacles might be brought forth. …

"Sisters, I am not joking, I do not throw out my proposition to banter your feelings, to see whether you will leave your husbands, all or any of you. But I do know that there is no cessation to the everlasting whining of many of the women in this Territory; I am satisfied that this is the case. … " ‘But,’ says one, ‘I want to have my paradise now.’ And says another, ‘I did think I should be in paradise if I was sealed to brother Brigham, and I thought I should be happy when I became his wife, or brother Heber’s. I loved you so much, that I thought I was going to have a heaven right off, right here on the spot.’

"What a curious doctrine it is, that we are preparing to enjoy! The only heaven for you is that which you make yourselves. My heaven is here—[laying his hand upon his heart]. I carry it with me. When do I expect it in its perfection? When I come up in the resurrection; then I shall have it, and not till then. …

"But the women come and say, ‘Really brother John, and brother William, I thought you were going to make a heaven for me,’ and they get into trouble because a heaven is not made for them by the men, even though agency is upon women as well as upon men. True there is a curse upon the woman that is not upon the man, namely, that ‘her whole affections shall be towards her husband,’ and what is the next? ‘He shall rule over you.’

"But how is it now? Your desire is to your husband, but you strive to rule over him, whereas the man should rule over you.

"Some may ask whether that is the case with me; go to my house and live, and then you will learn that I am very kind, but know how to rule. …

“Prepare yourselves for two weeks from to morrow; and I will tell you now, that if you will tarry with your husbands, after I have set you free, you must bow down to it, and submit yourselves to the celestial law. You may go where you please, after two weeks from to-morrow; but, remember, that I will not hear any more of this whining.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, 1856, pp. 55-57)
Wow! He opened the door and said shut up or git and don’t let the door hit ya on the way out. And the look on the women’s face must’ve been:eek:
 
This just goes to show that just because some people support or practice things that are harmful and wrong, that does not make those things beneficial and right.
I have lately listened to a true believing Momron argue that 19th century mormon poglyminy had many advantages, such as the ones listed by Cristine, but another that I found interesting:

HE said it reduced prostitution among the mormons

now you will often hear the seculars encourage the legalization of prostitution saying it is a victimless crime. I suppose this argument would be lost on the young drugaddicted girls selling oral sex for $20 a pop so as to feed themselves. Maybe if we had more pollygimy those little girls could find hubbies to share with other girls. But I doubt it.

sin is almost always offered up as a solution to mankinds problems, or as a kinder more humane way of doing business, unlike that ol’ debil’ catholic church that only wants to lock people down and keep them from having any fun.
 
Here is a question for our Mormon friends.
Have you come to place in your spiritual life where you know for sure that if you were to die today that you will be in heaven with God?
If Yes what do you base your yes upon?
 
Yes.

The requirements for being in heaven are not all that hard.

Christ is very merciful.
 
My question is: How can ANYONE be sure that they are guaranteed a spot in Heaven? Isn’t that what the Islamic fundamentalists say that they will achieve before they suicide bomb somebody in the name of Allah? Seriously…
 
Men are too controlling when they have only one woman to boss around. Polygamy offers protection from male domination.
Oh, COME ON. What is this, 2000 BC? While it is true that males and females have certain traits, these assumptions actually feed into the worst of our tendencies rather than our best. It says we must live at the most base level, as slaves to our animal natures, instead of aspiring to holy lives; and that all men are controlling creeps and that women must travel in harems to protect themselves, and not only that, this is the way it should be. This is very insulting and condescending to both sexes. You know what? How about the men learn to act like grownups in the real world, and how about the women not marry controlling jerks who won’t respect them unless they’ve got multiple wives to spread the abuse among?
Maybe it’s not as bad as people think. Also, many people commit serial polygamy, by getting married over and over after they divorce. This leads to families that are broken up, step-parents, etc.
Actually that is called serial monogamy, and I agree that it is a problem. However I disagree strongly that polygamy is the answer. Polygamy creates far more problems than it solves.
 
My question is: How can ANYONE be sure that they are guaranteed a spot in Heaven? Isn’t that what the Islamic fundamentalists say that they will achieve before they suicide bomb somebody in the name of Allah? Seriously…
Christ has been quite clear about the qualification’s for heaven. Those who follow him will get there. I’m by no means perfect, but I try to do what is right.
 
Christ has been quite clear about the qualification’s for heaven. Those who follow him will get there. I’m by no means perfect, but I try to do what is right.
Why do what is right if you’re assured Heaven? You see, it’s a non sequitur…
 
Why do what is right if you’re assured Heaven? You see, it’s a non sequitur…
Salvation is a gift. One that we must accept if we are to receive it.

If I where to act in a manor contrary to receiving that gift it would not be assured. Besides I have my sights set a bit higher than simple salvation. 😃
 
I think you just blew any chance you had.

😃
Not really. I can’t get there on my own thats for sure, but Christ has laid out a path to follow and even commanded us that we should follow him. Paul tells us that we can be joint heirs with Christ. That is more than simple salvation.
 
Not really. I can’t get there on my own thats for sure, but Christ has laid out a path to follow and even commanded us that we should follow him. Paul tells us that we can be joint heirs with Christ. That is more than simple salvation.
and here is where we disagree. salvation is never “simple”. to be ransomed from satan, to be raised up from death and brought into the very presence of God himself where he will SHARE with us all that he has forever…that IS salvation!
 
I Men are too controlling when they have only one woman to boss around.
That’s why i am not married… (that and a few other things).
. I met a polygamist wife in a restaurant in southern Utah, one of 4 wives.
How can she be polygamous when the state of Utah does not allow that? IT is against the law in all states, with maybe one exception?? No, i think that is a federal law… or it USED to be…
While she was working the children were in their own home being looked after by a co-wife. They were not hauled off to a day care center.
big deal. I would rather have my children in a day care… (not just any day care, but whatever…).
Maybe it’s not as bad as people think. Also, many people commit serial polygamy, by getting married over and over after they divorce. This leads to families that are broken up, step-parents, etc.
well, i don’t have to ask whether you are Catholic or not… (at least i HOPE i don’t???)

I would not share a man with ONE other woman, much less several… If my h-band (don’t have one) cheated on me, i would ditch him… maybe not foreger, but until he grew up…

But then… that would be like… a perpetual vow of celibacy… 😃
 
I am not advocating polygamy, (those are quotes from someone else, not me.) I’m just saying that maybe it isn’t as horrible as people make it out to be.

I do think that people who get married over and over, and have several batches of children by different spouses are (in a sense) polygamous, and much harm is done to their children by being split apart from their real parents.
 
and here is where we disagree. salvation is never “simple”. to be ransomed from satan, to be raised up from death and brought into the very presence of God himself where he will SHARE with us all that he has forever…that IS salvation!
I suppose a lot of that depends on your definitions. Being redeemed from death and hell is a great gift. living with and like God is something higher.
 
How can she be polygamous when the state of Utah does not allow that? IT is against the law in all states, with maybe one exception?? No, i think that is a federal law… or it USED to be…
Yo, dis,

Polygamy (or rather, bigamy) is illegal in Utah, just like every other state. The problem is that the polygamists there don’t legally marry more than one wife. They have a religious ceremony, but no one signs a state marriage certificate, or anything. So really, from a legal standpoint its just as if a man has a wife and a couple of live-in girlfriends. How can you prosecute that? If you started prosecuting people for shacking up without being legally married, where would it end? That’s why the state Attorney General in Utah has focused more on abuse cases, which can be more easily prosecuted.
 
I suppose a lot of that depends on your definitions. Being redeemed from death and hell is a great gift. living with and like God is something higher.
you seem to believe that God would “save” someone yet still exile them. i think it’s very binary you either go to heaven and enjoy all OR you go to hell and get none. your definition of salvation is in my mind akin to finding a shipwrecked man on a remote island and giving him the means to obtain food and water and heal his injuries yet leave him there. i think when God rescues us he takes us home with him
 
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