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Chris-WA
Guest
Neither is good. They are both bad situations.Chris-WA, that was just a rhetorical question. I think not everybody would answer the same as you. I have some more rhetorical questions…
Q. Is it better for a woman to have 100% of a lousy husband or 50% of a faithful husband?
No.Q. Are all men well suited to marriage?
It is our duty to respond to our vocation. We Catholics believe that most of us are called to the vocation of marriage. But unlike Mormons, we also believe some are called to another vocation as both Jesus and St. Paul described–that of celibacy. Celibacy is completely biblical, yet Mormons somehow reject this biblical principle. The reason they reject it is because celibacy doesn’t fit into their beliefs requiring eternal marriage to achieve the highest degree of heaven. But we KNOW from Jesus and St. Paul that some are called to celibacy “for the sake of the kingdom.” How do Mormons deal with Jesus’ and St. Paul’s teaching on this matter when both so clearly teach celibacy?Q. Is it the duty of a man to marry?
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Chris-WA
Guest
Absolutely! The Mormon Church still practices another form of polygamy to this very day. If a man’s wife dies and he remarries a new wife in the temple, they are sealed for eternity, which means he has at least two wives in heaven. Interestingly, the same is not true if the genders are reversed. A woman cannot remarry another man in the temple and have two husbands in heaven.Also, I’m still wondering, according to Mormon teaching, can a man have more than one wife in heaven even if he only had one wife on earth?
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Chris-WA
Guest
The argument against celibacy is completely different than the argument against homosexuality because one is moral and the other is not. One is biblical and the other is anti-biblical. Also, no one says that all or even most or even many should be celibate. God has provided two vocations–marriage and celibacy. Both are totally biblical and taught by Christ. Most are called to the vocation of marriage. Some are called to the vocation of celibacy.Majick, the argue against celibacy is the same as the one against homosexuality: if everyone practiced for a generation, the world would be empty and Satan would rejoice. If everyone praticed polygamy (so much as it’s possible and still have everyone married), the end result would be that every women would be married and there’d be a lot of babies!
Here’s another way to look at it. Jesus was not married to a woman, but the scriptures often describe him as being married to the whole Church! He is the bridegroom and she (the Church) is the bride. St. Paul taught this, correct? Jesus is more married to the church than I am to my wife, because he is the perfect bridegroom and she is his spotless bride. It is the same with priests. They act in the person of Christ–totally devoted to their bride–the Church. They are celibate for the sake of the kingdom, just like Jesus describes in the bible. They give up being an earthly father in order to be a spirtual father to many souls. Neither vocation is above the other, but both are necessary in God’s plan. Incidentally, this is a major reason why women cannot hold the Catholic priesthood. Christ is the bridegroom, the church is the bride. To have a woman be a bridegroom makes no sense in the marital covenant releationship that is the relationship between Christ and His church.So far as I know, the Catholics have restricted celibacy to the Priesthood and Nuns. I suppose they had their reasons for doing this but this is almost the opposite of the Mormon philosophy. They want their best and brightest to be family men and serving God at the same time. Since you were in a bishopric, you know how those two can conflict, but that’s another discussiion.
I commend you that at least you have tried to learn about this rather than put it on the back burner like most LDS do. It’s kind of the ugly thing we don’t talk about, right? I would encourage you to keep studying the history surrounding the origins of polygamy in your church. There’s plenty of information out there. Whether or not you choose to believe that Joseph’s intentions on this matter were less than pure are up to you, but I believe the more research you do on the matter the more problematic you will find the whole thing. What you do with that information is up to you.Good Daughter, I frankly do have some problems with polygamy and I don’t see why the early Mormons pushed it. Every true blue Mormon at terms has to come to grip with it and I’ve tried to lay out my thinking on the matter as best as I can. Some people (maybe who’ve been posting here!) have decided that it’s incompatible with Christian life and have left the Mormon church. If I believed 1/100 of the crazy things Joseph Smith was accused of, I’d leave too! But I very much agree with the philosophy and teachings the pratice was based on, even if I’m not that crazy about the practice itself.
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Good_Daughter
Guest
You mean earthly polygamy, right? I ask because, from what’s been explained on this thread, it is currently taught by the LDS Church as a heavenly reality.Good Daughter, I frankly do have some problems with polygamy and I don’t see why the early Mormons pushed it…
To tell you the truth, if I had to marry another woman (in addition to my current wife whom I love very much), I would have to think of it as a heavy responsibility and I would welcome it and fear it at the same time. Sort of like being in the Bishopric or any other heavy responsibility. On the other hand, every responsibility brings some rewards and since I generally like married life, that part would be nice. But failure would be so much easier!
Do you believe your wife would be as calm as you seem if she faced the prospect of polygamy here and now? If your wife had to marry another man (in addition to you whom I assume she loves very much), would she think of it as a heavy responsibility, welcoming it and fearing it at the same time? Sort of like motherhood or any other heavy responsibility. Maybe the responsibility of a second husband would bring some rewards and if she generally likes married life, that part would be nice for her too. Of course failure would be easier. (If she started to like the new guy more, she’d have to force herself to keep being nice to you, just to be fair.)
Could you really imagine your beloved wife in the marital embrace with another man? Could she imagine you loving and caring for another woman? I know it would reduce my marriage to a sort of contract rather than covenant.
rmcmullan, I hope I didn’t come across too harshly. I’m simply trying to illustrate a differet viewpoint.
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wademann
Guest
All of you on this thread have valid points,on polygamy I would not want to do it, but would you do it if God asked you to? Don’t say that, God wouldn’t ask. What if he did?
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Good_Daughter
Guest
I’m no feminist. I’m quite content with the all-male Catholic priesthood. I still have a hard time imagining how Mormons can believe this teaching to be of God. I’m starting to think the LDS Church is suffering from lack of a sexual revolution. I wonder if any Mormon theologians would consider reading “Theology of the Body” then praying to know if it is true (like Mormons ask non-Mormons to do with the BoM).Absolutely! The Mormon Church still practices another form of polygamy to this very day. If a man’s wife dies and he remarries a new wife in the temple, they are sealed for eternity, which means he has at least two wives in heaven. Interestingly, the same is not true if the genders are reversed. A woman cannot remarry another man in the temple and have two husbands in heaven.
So the Cestial Kingdom may resemble 19th C Utah in some ways? No disrespect intended, but I think I’ll remain Catholic and settle happily for the prospect of eternity in the Terrestrial or even Telestial Kingdom. Maybe Jesus and St. Paul will be there.
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Good_Daughter
Guest
wademann, what a great question! I’ve acctually been asking myself the same thing for the past couple days. As a Catholic I think one would have to insist that God wouldn’t ask as it would be contrary to His nature to ask us to sin. If He did ask, He wouldn’t be God. In addition, God didn’t ask the early Mormons to practice polygamy, Joseph Smith and other leaders asked. Mormons just put their trust in these men as God’s prophets.All of you on this thread have valid points,on polygamy I would not want to do it, but would you do it if God asked you to? Don’t say that, God wouldn’t ask. What if he did?
To answer the question though, if God asked me directly to do it, (yikes) I would refuse, preferring to spend all eternity with the devil over a God who would ask me or anyone else to commit such sin.
God wouldn’t ask. Excellent question though.
A
Allweather
Guest
I think that is a good question, because it strikes at the heart of how one tests the spirits. If we assume for a moment that Joseph Smith actually did receive spiritual revelations, the question naturally arises, were they of the Holy Spirit, or were they of spirits, spirits not necessarily in submission to God, not necessarily holy.All of you on this thread have valid points,on polygamy I would not want to do it, but would you do it if God asked you to? Don’t say that, God wouldn’t ask. What if he did?
This is the value of Sacred Tradition, which interprets Scripture, correctly. God “asking” someone to be a polygamist isn’t possible according to what we know from Scripture and Tradition. Therefore, any spiritual “revelation” of that type could not be valid. And so on and so on with regard to many other revelations that Joseph received, as well as those of other sects and cults that are break-a-ways from the true Christian religion. Having broken away, they have lost their doctrinal compass, and are therefore open to new and not-so-pure things, often things that will present themselves as holy, or expedient, or good.
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Good_Daughter
Guest
That’s it. My original post has just been answered. You even touched nicely upon the second part of my OP regarding authority. It’s taken a couple weeks and 160-odd posts to get here, but what an enjoyable ride. I feel like I’m 5’ 4" and I’ve just played basketball with the Lakers. I’ve managed to converse with people much smarter, better-informed and more articulate than myself and I’ve learned so much in the process.I think that is a good question, because it strikes at the heart of how one tests the spirits. If we assume for a moment that Joseph Smith actually did receive spiritual revelations, the question naturally arises, were they of the Holy Spirit, or were they of spirits, spirits not necessarily in submission to God, not necessarily holy.
This is the value of Sacred Tradition, which interprets Scripture, correctly. God “asking” someone to be a polygamist isn’t possible according to what we know from Scripture and Tradition. Therefore, any spiritual “revelation” of that type could not be valid. And so on and so on with regard to many other revelations that Joseph received, as well as those of other sects and cults that are break-a-ways from the true Christian religion. Having broken away, they have lost their doctrinal compass, and are therefore open to new and not-so-pure things, often things that will present themselves as holy, or expedient, or good.
Allweather, your post helps me to apply 1 Thess 5:21 (Test everything; retain what is good.) to my dealings with Mormon friends. Of course you had some pretty good assists from the likes of majick 275, Alma147, rmcmullin, wademann, etc., and for a thread this long everyone certainly stayed well on topic.
I think I’m now a little better informed on the Mormon faith and, as always after spending time on CAF, strengthened in my Catholic faith. Now to share it…
X
xmormon
Guest
This newspaper article we wrote really applies to this forum…
The fruits of polygamy can best be measured by polygamy’s effect on the first Mormon family who practiced it, Joseph and Emma Smith. Plural marriage (as Joseph called it) was devastating to his first wife Emma. Though Joseph in speeches and church publications continually denied the doctrine and practice of plural marriage, Emma strongly suspected her husband of practicing it and she enlisted support from other anti-polygamy women to spy on him.
In February of 1843 Emma became aware that Joseph had taken her best friend, Eliza R. Snow, as a plural wife. Emma became so enraged that she pushed Eliza down the stairs at their home with a broomstick causing Eliza to have a miscarriage. Now the cat was out of the bag and it became Joseph’s top priority to convince Emma she should accept polygamy.
In official LDS history, on the morning of July 12, 1843 Hyrum (Joseph’s brother) said to Joseph, “If you will write the revelation on celestial marriage, I will take it and read it to Emma, and I believe I can convince her of its truth, and you will hereafter have peace.” Joseph smiled and remarked, “You do not know Emma as well as I do.”… Hyrum then took the revelation to read to Emma.
When he came back, Joseph asked how he had succeeded. Hyrum replied that he had never received a more severe talking to in his life. After the revelation was written Emma teased, and urgently entreated Joseph for the privilege of destroying the revelation. Joseph became so weary of her teasing and to get rid of her annoyance, he told her she might destroy it and she did so. Of course Joseph knew he could re-write it at any time." (History of the Church, introduction to vol. 5).
Later after Joseph promised Emma she would be a queen and a priestess if she accepted plural marriage Emma briefly accepted plural marriage. temple records, church history and the personal journals of the women involved show that nine of Joseph’s first 12 wives were women then currently married to other men and reassigned to Joseph. Emma battled her feelings that plural marriage was an evil practice and even though she consented to Joseph’s marriages Emily Partridge (one of Joseph’s wives) wrote in her Journal: "from the very hour we were married to Joseph, Emma became our bitter enemy.
Official LDS history shows that Joseph Smith, as mayor of Nauvoo, ordered the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor (a newspaper that was making public, the secret-sacred plural marriage life of Joseph Smith). Joseph and his brother Hyrum were arrested on charge of treason (of course freedom of the press was and is a constitutionally protected right) and taken to Carthage jail (History of the Church, vol. 6, p.38).
Joseph’s plural marriages and what many considered treasonous act of destroying a free press had so angered the people that a mob formed at the jail and Joseph and Hyrum were killed in what can best be described as a gun fight in which Joseph Smith killed two men. Official LDS history records that when the mob approached the door to the room where Joseph and Hyrum were being held, Joseph; “approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Whellock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times, only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. Two or three (mobsters) were wounded by these discharges, two of whom died.” (History of the Church, vol. 7, pp. 102-3).
Emma later wrote, “it was the secret doctrines that got Joseph and Hyrum killed”. Emma left the church after Joseph’s death and claimed the authority of the church rested in her son, whom she used to start a new church called; "The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Obviously this church left out the practice of plural marriage and most of the other secret-sacred doctrines of Mormonism.
Because Emma’s church became a competition to the polygamous church led by Brigham Young, Brigham in an 1866 conference address said: “Joseph called his wife Emma into a secret council, and there he told her of the time she undertook to poison him, and he told her that she was a child of hell, and literally the most wicked woman on this earth, that there was not one more wicked than she.”
I know this doesn’t sound much like the romance fiction novels-movies now being published about the Joseph Smith era. But it’s time for someone to throw some light on the true origins and nature of polygamy and its disastrous consequences.
The fruits of polygamy can best be measured by polygamy’s effect on the first Mormon family who practiced it, Joseph and Emma Smith. Plural marriage (as Joseph called it) was devastating to his first wife Emma. Though Joseph in speeches and church publications continually denied the doctrine and practice of plural marriage, Emma strongly suspected her husband of practicing it and she enlisted support from other anti-polygamy women to spy on him.
In February of 1843 Emma became aware that Joseph had taken her best friend, Eliza R. Snow, as a plural wife. Emma became so enraged that she pushed Eliza down the stairs at their home with a broomstick causing Eliza to have a miscarriage. Now the cat was out of the bag and it became Joseph’s top priority to convince Emma she should accept polygamy.
In official LDS history, on the morning of July 12, 1843 Hyrum (Joseph’s brother) said to Joseph, “If you will write the revelation on celestial marriage, I will take it and read it to Emma, and I believe I can convince her of its truth, and you will hereafter have peace.” Joseph smiled and remarked, “You do not know Emma as well as I do.”… Hyrum then took the revelation to read to Emma.
When he came back, Joseph asked how he had succeeded. Hyrum replied that he had never received a more severe talking to in his life. After the revelation was written Emma teased, and urgently entreated Joseph for the privilege of destroying the revelation. Joseph became so weary of her teasing and to get rid of her annoyance, he told her she might destroy it and she did so. Of course Joseph knew he could re-write it at any time." (History of the Church, introduction to vol. 5).
Later after Joseph promised Emma she would be a queen and a priestess if she accepted plural marriage Emma briefly accepted plural marriage. temple records, church history and the personal journals of the women involved show that nine of Joseph’s first 12 wives were women then currently married to other men and reassigned to Joseph. Emma battled her feelings that plural marriage was an evil practice and even though she consented to Joseph’s marriages Emily Partridge (one of Joseph’s wives) wrote in her Journal: "from the very hour we were married to Joseph, Emma became our bitter enemy.
Official LDS history shows that Joseph Smith, as mayor of Nauvoo, ordered the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor (a newspaper that was making public, the secret-sacred plural marriage life of Joseph Smith). Joseph and his brother Hyrum were arrested on charge of treason (of course freedom of the press was and is a constitutionally protected right) and taken to Carthage jail (History of the Church, vol. 6, p.38).
Joseph’s plural marriages and what many considered treasonous act of destroying a free press had so angered the people that a mob formed at the jail and Joseph and Hyrum were killed in what can best be described as a gun fight in which Joseph Smith killed two men. Official LDS history records that when the mob approached the door to the room where Joseph and Hyrum were being held, Joseph; “approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Whellock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times, only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. Two or three (mobsters) were wounded by these discharges, two of whom died.” (History of the Church, vol. 7, pp. 102-3).
Emma later wrote, “it was the secret doctrines that got Joseph and Hyrum killed”. Emma left the church after Joseph’s death and claimed the authority of the church rested in her son, whom she used to start a new church called; "The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Obviously this church left out the practice of plural marriage and most of the other secret-sacred doctrines of Mormonism.
Because Emma’s church became a competition to the polygamous church led by Brigham Young, Brigham in an 1866 conference address said: “Joseph called his wife Emma into a secret council, and there he told her of the time she undertook to poison him, and he told her that she was a child of hell, and literally the most wicked woman on this earth, that there was not one more wicked than she.”
I know this doesn’t sound much like the romance fiction novels-movies now being published about the Joseph Smith era. But it’s time for someone to throw some light on the true origins and nature of polygamy and its disastrous consequences.
B
Benadam
Guest
Discerning the spirits that promote polygamy:
Gen6-2
The sons of God seeing the daughters of men, that they were fair, took to themselves wives of all which they chose. 3 And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.
Gen6-2
The sons of God seeing the daughters of men, that they were fair, took to themselves wives of all which they chose. 3 And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.
I
Irish_Kathy
Guest
My personal view of polygamy in the Bible is that, everywhere it occurs, it seems to cause more pain than happiness in the long run. Check it out for yourself. Look at Abraham and Jacob for just two good examples. The wives in these relationships are never happy. They were always competing with each other. I feel like these examples were put into the Bible because polygamy is not the way God intended marriage to be. From the beginning, God intended a man to just have one wife, not multiple ones.A Mormon missionary visited me yesterday and over the course of our discussion she gave her view on polygamy which I’d never considered before. She explained how the practice was permitted by God at various times in history (documented in the OT) and the early Mormon era was simply one more of these times.
She’s coming back next week and I’m wondering if there is a good Catholic response to her claim. I did a search for “polygamy” in this forum and I understand it was an unpleasant practice of the early Mormons, cloaked in piety.
Maybe the larger issue for a Catholic is really that of authority? Any advice would be welcome.
:kissme: Kathy :irish2:
C
Cowbell76
Guest
Hello all.
First off I am an active Mormon whom enjoys and loves my faith. It seems that there is a lot of talk about polygamy and I want to put the issue to rest.
1st - The church disavowed polygamy in 1888. No one has been practicing since. I invite you to read this short document - scriptures.lds.org/en/od/1
2nd - I read a post saying that God’s work was done and that there are no more prophets after the saints have died. Why then do you have a pope? If God does not talk to anyone why have a religion at all? His work is done right? I invite you to read this - scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/28 and this chapter - scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He continues to speak to his prophet on the earth today. I receive revelation for my family and follow the direction given.
I invite all members of all faiths to rejoice in that Christ has died for us and he is risen. If we will simply repent we can find mercy at his feet. Many of us will be on the right hand of God, it doesn’t take a whole lot of effort to show kindness to a stranger.
First off I am an active Mormon whom enjoys and loves my faith. It seems that there is a lot of talk about polygamy and I want to put the issue to rest.
1st - The church disavowed polygamy in 1888. No one has been practicing since. I invite you to read this short document - scriptures.lds.org/en/od/1
2nd - I read a post saying that God’s work was done and that there are no more prophets after the saints have died. Why then do you have a pope? If God does not talk to anyone why have a religion at all? His work is done right? I invite you to read this - scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/28 and this chapter - scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He continues to speak to his prophet on the earth today. I receive revelation for my family and follow the direction given.
I invite all members of all faiths to rejoice in that Christ has died for us and he is risen. If we will simply repent we can find mercy at his feet. Many of us will be on the right hand of God, it doesn’t take a whole lot of effort to show kindness to a stranger.
I
ibkc
Guest
The Pope is not a prophet.%between%
2nd - I read a post saying that God’s work was done and that there are no more prophets after the saints have died. Why then do you have a pope?
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
Disavowed (to deny responsibility for; to refuse to acknowledge or accept) but never denounced (to pronounce especially publicly to blameworthy or evil) a big difference to most people I know.1st - The church disavowed polygamy in 1888. No one has been practicing since.
Like a thief who says I don’t steal anymore without ever saying his previous behavior is in any way wrong.
There might be more sympathy toward the FLDS if they didn’t have a past history (and a conviction) of the same type of abuse of children. Where there was a 14 year old girl criminally treated by Warren Jeffs there was a mother and a father in the community who agreed to the horror and no other adult stepped in to stop it. If it was Priests and Bishops involved you all would be on it like flies on dung.
P
PaulDupre
Guest
Mormons misunderstand what Catholics believe about revelation, mostly because your leaders have endeavored to confuse you about it. They know better.2nd - I read a post saying that God’s work was done and that there are no more prophets after the saints have died. Why then do you have a pope? If God does not talk to anyone why have a religion at all? His work is done right? I invite you to read this - scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/28 and this chapter - scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He continues to speak to his prophet on the earth today. I receive revelation for my family and follow the direction given.
The Catholic Church does not deny that God speaks to his people now. The Pope and the Bishops in communion with him are guided by the Holy Spirit, as Jesus promised. They speak authoritatively for God in all matters of faith and morals, and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit they apply the teachings of Jesus as conveyed to us by the apostles to the times in which we live.
What the Catholic Church does deny is that there will be any further public revelation of new doctrine. Jesus is the final and complete revelation of the Father and there is nothing that needs to be added to what He taught. As the Church lives the gospel through the ages, we come to understand those doctrines more deeply, but the doctrines can never change. The Pope and the bishops zealously protect the deposit of faith handed down from the apostles and never change it.
We also believe that individuals can and do receive private revelation to help them live their lives in accordance with Jesus’ teachings. We generally do not discuss this - it is “private”.
If you read the papal encyclicals from Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI, you will see the Holy Spirit at work guiding the modern Church into all truth. By contrast, no Mormon “prophet” since Brigham Young has said or written anything noteworthy (except to disavow the teachings of Brigham Young).
Your prophets can tell you how many earrings you are allowed to wear, but can’t tell you when human life begins. You talk a great deal about your living prophets, but there is no “there” there.
Paul
J
J_C
Guest
Hi cowbell, welcome.Hello all.
First off I am an active Mormon whom enjoys and loves my faith. It seems that there is a lot of talk about polygamy and I want to put the issue to rest.
I am in process of learnign about your religion, and have a question. Are you a convert to the mormon religion? Or were you raised so from the cradle?
reason I ask is, I’m trying to get a handle on the differences in understanding of mormon history between converts and cradle mormons.
Thanks.
Z
zerinus
Guest
That is a false dichotomy. The difference is not between “cradle Mormons and converts”. The difference is between how long you have been an (active) member of the Church, how much experience you have had in it, and how much time you have taken to study it. I guess it is the same for Catholics.reason I ask is, I’m trying to get a handle on the differences in understanding of mormon history between converts and cradle mormons.
Thanks.
zerinus
D
DLC
Guest
Remember this there are no living prophets today. Read Hebrews 1:1-8.
Also, the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus of the Bible is eternal God and the Mormon Jesus is a created man who became a god. It does not matter what the Mormon church believes about poligamy if it is wrong about who Jesus is.
John 1:1-4; 10:28-34.
Also, the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus of the Bible is eternal God and the Mormon Jesus is a created man who became a god. It does not matter what the Mormon church believes about poligamy if it is wrong about who Jesus is.
John 1:1-4; 10:28-34.
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