Mormon/Polygamy question

[J_C]

Mormonism is the true Church that Jesus has established. It is the Catholic Church that is “out of communion” with it.

zerinus

what I said is in the context of how I consider all the various sects that are separated from the universal Churhc. while we can, and should, differentialte among them on the basis of specific beliefs and practices, I prefer to not to dwell on the differences. To me, it is sufficinet to see that they are all out of communion with Universal Christianity, the Catholic Church. The momromns are one among many separateds sects, hundreds of them, if not thousands.

 

[J_C]

This is what Brigham Young had to say about the first vision:

On February 18, 1855 this is what Brigham Young had to say about the first vision:

The messenger did not come to an eminent divine. The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven, but He did send His angel to this obscure person, Joseph Smith Jr. who afterwards become a prophet, seer, and revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religion sects of the day. Journal of Discourses, vol 2 page 171

it appears then that Brighim Young agrees with what I have read, which is that Joseph’s first description of the Frist Vision was of a single apparition, rather than two separate ones.

though I note that what I read about Josepeh’s first description did not contain the admonition about joinging other religious sects.

It appears from my reading that Joseph developed his story over time, adding this and that as he went along. finally, some time after Joseph’s unfortunate passing, the LDS leadership, realizing the importance of the Frist Vision, came up with the official version, which is what is taught today, and is different from Joseph’s frist revelation of his frist vision.

 

[DLC]

what I said is in the context of how I consider all the various sects that are separated from the universal Churhc. while we can, and should, differentialte among them on the basis of specific beliefs and practices, I prefer to not to dwell on the differences. To me, it is sufficinet to see that they are all out of communion with Universal Christianity, the Catholic Church. The momromns are one among many separateds sects, hundreds of them, if not thousands.

They are a cult plain and simple. By the way, the universal church is NOT found in any particulare denomination. It belongs to all those who are saved by faith alone in Christ alone.

 

[Mapi]

it appears then that Brighim Young agrees with what I have read, which is that Joseph’s first description of the Frist Vision was of a single apparition, rather than two separate ones.

though I note that what I read about Josepeh’s first description did not contain the admonition about joinging other religious sects.

It appears from my reading that Joseph developed his story over time, adding this and that as he went along. finally, some time after Joseph’s unfortunate passing, the LDS leadership, realizing the importance of the Frist Vision, came up with the official version, which is what is taught today, and is different from Joseph’s frist revelation of his frist vision.

that’s right, that’s what I wanted to say. According to
Brighan Young, Joseph Smith did not tell the truth to his followers, he changed his story many times!

 

[zerinus]

To me, it is sufficinet to see that they are all out of communion with Universal Christianity, the Catholic Church. The momromns are one among many separateds sects, hundreds of them, if not thousands.

Mormonism is not a “separated sect”. It is a Restoration of the true Church of God by revelation from heaven–after the original one had apostatized. It is either Mormonism or nothing.

zerinus

 

[J_C]

Mormonism is not a “separated sect”. It is a Restoration of the true Church of God by revelation from heaven–after the original one had apostatized. It is either Mormonism or nothing.

zerinus

i appreciate your perspective on this, but respectfully poinnt out that yours is shared by most of the others non-Catholic, no need to name them, they know who they are.

tracing the historical line gives insight, without resorting to theologcial arguments about numbers of angels on heads of pins, and the like.

the LDS religion was born in America in 1830. So were quite a few other sects, many of which still exist today, and which are in opposition to LDS as well as the other sects, and of course all these sects stand in opposition to the Catholic Church. In fact, it probabbly is not an exaggeration to say that this opposition to Catnolic Chruch is the one thing that unites the sects. Their common enemy!

So, it seems to me, the historical facts tell a big story. it also seems that, because we are in many important ways defined by the nature of our enemies, the commonality of these sects being that they are the enemies of the Catholic Church, is also telling.

often the arguments overcomplicate. It really isn’t all that complicated. Even I in my thick headedness can, by not getting bogged down in tiny theological distinctions, but rather looking at the overview, sense that all of these modern sects contain great errors, and that they are working against rather than in favor of, the Church of Jesus Christ.

 

[zerinus]

i appreciate your perspective on this, but respectfully poinnt out that yours is shared by most of the others non-Catholic, no need to name them, they know who they are.

I appreciate your perspective on this, but respectfully point out that yours is shared by most of the other non-LDS, no need to name them, they know who they are.

tracing the historical line gives insight, without resorting to theologcial arguments about numbers of angels on heads of pins, and the like.

Tracing the historical line of a religion that apostatized centuries ago does give considerable insight into that Apostasy, I agree.

the LDS religion was born in America in 1830. . . .

The LDS religion was Restored in America in 1830!

So, it seems to me, the historical facts tell a big story. . . .

They do. They tell the story of a Great Apostasy.

Even I in my thick headedness can, . . .

Well, I am glad you said that, I didn’t!

zerinus

 

[Stephen168]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3551025&postcount=67

 

[DLC]

Mormonism is not a “separated sect”. It is a Restoration of the true Church of God by revelation from heaven–after the original one had apostatized. It is either Mormonism or nothing.

zerinus

Q. In Mormonism how does come to know for sure that when they will be in heaven with God?

 

[pismopal]

A Mormon missionary visited me yesterday and over the course of our discussion she gave her view on polygamy which I’d never considered before. She explained how the practice was permitted by God at various times in history (documented in the OT) and the early Mormon era was simply one more of these times.

She’s coming back next week and I’m wondering if there is a good Catholic response to her claim. I did a search for “polygamy” in this forum and I understand it was an unpleasant practice of the early Mormons, cloaked in piety.

Maybe the larger issue for a Catholic is really that of authority? Any advice would be welcome.

You might try reminding her that although G-d may have “permitted polygamy” at various times in history, there is no evidence that G-d gave Joseph Smith permission to resurrect the practise. Actually, when it comes to that sect…most responses, Catholic or otherwise, will seem harsh to them and offensive. Sometimes…most of the time, it is difficult to sugarcoat the Truth. My Mormon relatives have given me a perspective regarding this.
All arguments having to do with Mormons seems to boil down to it’s essence…either JS was a prophet or he was not… period and end of story.

 

[zerinus]

Q. In Mormonism how does come to know for sure that when they will be in heaven with God?

Your question is not clearly worded. Can you rephrase it for us so that it makes better sense please.

zerinus

 

[teancum79]

All arguments having to do with Mormons seems to boil down to it’s essence…either JS was a prophet or he was not… period and end of story.

This is very accurate. If JS was a prophet than his teachings are God’s word and all should follow. If he was not than he is just one of many people with a different view.

I have learned for myself that the former is true and is saves me all softs of headaches and concision.

P.S I have not read this entire thread yet, but has the issues of Catholic Nuns all being married to Christ come up? I’ve never understood that one.

 

[majick275]

All arguments having to do with Mormons seems to boil down to it’s essence…either JS was a prophet or he was not… period and end of story.

This is very accurate. If JS was a prophet than his teachings are God’s word and all should follow. If he was not than he is just one of many people with a different view.

I have learned for myself that the former is true and is saves me all softs of headaches and concision.

P.S I have not read this entire thread yet, but has the issues of Catholic Nuns all being married to Christ come up? I’ve never understood that one.

i’ll agree with you here. mormonism boils down to a simple binary regarding JS claim to being a prophet. I have however learned that it is not true and that has saved me from heresy. the marriage of nuns to christ is symbolic and not in any way to mistaken for eternal marriage in the LDS sense.

 

[pismopal]

This is very accurate. If JS was a prophet than his teachings are God’s word and all should follow. If he was not than he is just one of many people with a different view.

I have learned for myself that the former is true and is saves me all softs of headaches and concision.

P.S I have not read this entire thread yet, but has the issues of Catholic Nuns all being married to Christ come up? I’ve never understood that one.

i’ll agree with you here. mormonism boils down to a simple binary regarding JS claim to being a prophet. I have however learned that it is not true and that has saved me from heresy. the marriage of nuns to christ is symbolic and not in any way to mistaken for eternal marriage in the LDS sense.

I have never considered the issue of JS to be troubling. I could never buy into his being a prophet so nothing else they have to sell makes any sense at all. Very easy decision for me.

 

[Cowbell76]

Prayer

We are all children of God. He loves us and knows our needs, and He wants us to communicate with Him through prayer. We should pray to Him and no one else. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded, “Ye must always pray unto the Father in my name” (3 Nephi 18:19). As we make a habit of approaching God in prayer, we will come to know Him and draw ever nearer to Him. Our desires will become more like His. We will be able to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that He is ready to give if we will but ask in faith.

I was given a challenge in a meeting lately to pray at certain intervals throughout the day. Intervals such as when I get in my car to leave, or restart my computer, etc. I took this challenge and it has changed my life for the better. I want to extend this to everyone as it is too good to keep to myself. Please try it, this goes to people of all faiths. The changes in my perception of things have changed. My testimony of the restored gospel has only become stronger and I have a sense of closeness to God at all times.

Please try it, I would love to see some posts about how this turned out for anyone who tried it.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Prayer

We are all children of God. He loves us and knows our needs, and He wants us to communicate with Him through prayer. We should pray to Him and no one else. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded, “Ye must always pray unto the Father in my name” (3 Nephi 18:19). As we make a habit of approaching God in prayer, we will come to know Him and draw ever nearer to Him. Our desires will become more like His. We will be able to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that He is ready to give if we will but ask in faith.

I was given a challenge in a meeting lately to pray at certain intervals throughout the day. Intervals such as when I get in my car to leave, or restart my computer, etc. I took this challenge and it has changed my life for the better. I want to extend this to everyone as it is too good to keep to myself. Please try it, this goes to people of all faiths. The changes in my perception of things have changed. My testimony of the restored gospel has only become stronger and I have a sense of closeness to God at all times.

Please try it, I would love to see some posts about how this turned out for anyone who tried it.

A five-fold AMEN!!!

And it was exactly this kind of prayer that lead me out of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and into the Mystical Body of Christ (though not fully received yet).

But I full-heartedly agree. Regardless of religion or denomination, I’m sure we can all agree on prayer’s efficacy.

 

[DLC]

There are no prophets today as Hebrews 1:1-8 tells us. We have Christ and the Bible and that is all we need.

 

[Eliza10]

A Mormon missionary… explained how the practice was permitted by God at various times in history (documented in the OT) and the early Mormon era was simply one more of these times. …

Maybe the larger issue for a Catholic is really that of authority? Any advice would be welcome…

(I did not read this whole thread. I am responding to the original poster).

Yes, the authority is Jesus, Who does not permit polygamy or any sin, ever, for any reason. Also the sin of adultery, practised by Joseph Smith, He never permits, for any reason.

Not-sinning is not just for certain occasions, but for all.

As Paul says in scripture, we are called to strive to be perfect. All the time. Not just sometimes, or convenient times. One cannot be perfect when you are sinning, or putting one’s own lust above the basic needs of others.

Tell your missionary friend that God is the same yesterday, today and always. He never changes.

You also asked for more information on polygamy. The best source is to read the experience of the wives of Joseph Smith. This website: wivesofjosephsmith.com has the testimonies of his wives (over thirty of them) from approved Mormon sources (the author of the site is a Mormon).

Let your missionary aquaintance read these experiences of these women, and ask herself if she thinks God thinks its okay for women to be hurt and decieved in certain times in history, but not in other times.

And realize also that the self-serving, deceitful, lying Joseph Smith is the author of the Mormon faith.

 

[why_me]

There are no prophets today as Hebrews 1:1-8 tells us. We have Christ and the Bible and that is all we need.

When one considers the fact that the bible has been translated and interpreted in different ways for centuries now, I would have to disagree with you. To believe that all of god’s words are just in the bible and nowhere else would be a shame on god. Do we need prophets or popes to guide us in these latter days? I think so. But of course, the prophet and pope need to be geniune and the lds prophet seems like he is as does the pope. A person will not go wrong regardless which one is followed more closely.

 

[why_me]

All arguments having to do with Mormons seems to boil down to it’s essence…either JS was a prophet or he was not… period and end of story.

This is very accurate. If JS was a prophet than his teachings are God’s word and all should follow. If he was not than he is just one of many people with a different view.

I have learned for myself that the former is true and is saves me all softs of headaches and concision.

P.S I have not read this entire thread yet, but has the issues of Catholic Nuns all being married to Christ come up? I’ve never understood that one.

It is true that it all comes down to JS. If he saw his vision, then, there is a god and He organized the restroration. If JS did not see his vision, then he was a fraud or a pious fraud.

The JS story is an interesting one and the early history of the heavenly visitations seems to be believable if one sees god organizing his true church again. No one has refuted these visitations and no one has denied seeing them along with JS. I refer to the witnesses here and to the individuals who received the keys to the priesthood from heavenly visitations.

That in itself is truly amazing.