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ibkc
Guest
So you’re admitting that you believe JS was a prophet and his teachings are God’s word. Are you finally dropping this ridiculous pretense of being Catholic?
Praise the Lord.
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Praise the Lord.
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teancum79
Guest
Well I’ve not read Hebrews this week, but last time I did I did not see it saying that there would be no more prophets could you show me where that part is?
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J_C
Guest
you are disagreeing according to your own interpretation.
cpouple of things. first, the Pope is not a prophet, he is a bishop.
Second, if the momron prophet is truly a prophet, then he is a prophet of a demon, certainly not of God. I prefer to believe that he is not truly a prophet, because I do not believe that Mromons are led by demons. the LdS presidents are good men, but they are not prophets.
from my limited reading, I am having a hrad time finding very much prophecy claimed by any of them since Brigham Yong. It seems like they are laying low. Even rev Hinkley commented on this, saying (my paraphrase, forgive if I am not quite accurate) that there is hard enough time just digesting what has already been prophesied let alone issueing forth more. it appears the LDs presidents mainly respond to cultural presure, such as the plygomy and black priesthood issues.
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Eliza10
Guest
Joseph Smith’s story is only interesting if you like read a twisted story of a very sick mind. It is certainly *not *amazing. I am sorry you have been stuck reading his life and not the lives of Saints. Read any life of a Saint and you will then know what is truly the amazing work of God in a human life.
Why Me, this is not the first thread that you have changed the Mormon related question to your question: “Can anyone refute that Joseph Smith saw these visions?”
Perhaps you bring it back to this, rather than answer the many unanswerable questions about Mormonism posed here, because it is akin to me saying: “I don’t believe you had that dream last night you said you had.” I could never definatively prove that, since I was never in your brain.
But I could look at other things and make an educated guess.
The amount of people that will believe your story (that you had a particular dream) depends on how good a storyteller you are. If its a good story, more will listen. (Smith had a reputation for being a fantastic story teller before he had the alleged Mormon vision.)
Another way I could guess at whether or not you had a dream you said you had, since obviously no one could ever prove it, is see if there is anything in it for you to tell this dream.
If claiming to have your dream meant you could become the star of your own religion, and if obviously you loved being in the limelight and having everyone look up to you because you the exclusively selected one that God tells his important secrets to, then I would be suspect.
Then suppose I saw that you abused your power to coerce young helpless girls, who just lost their parents to sickness (somehow he found so* many* helpless young girls in his proximity who just lost their parents). You told each girl, dispite her lack of interest in you as a man, that God had told you personally she was commanded be your next wife, among your crowd of wives.
Also God instructed that she had to lose her innocence and consumate the marriage immediately, in order not to displease and disobey God. But God wanted this marriage kept secret from everyone - so she is not to tell anyone, just go live secretly in some back room off an alley and wait for when he could sneak away to be with her.
Then I would just say you are a very sick man whom God has left long ago, in disgust, and I not going to believe any dreams you had.
I think that would be the only reasonable guess.
In addition, I know that Jesus’ disciples did not live lives of selfish disgusting immorality. At least not the 11 He left to begin His Church. Their lives were total self-giving and they lived the morality of God, not satan. Our Lord has never chosen people of the ilk of Joseph Smith to lead His people in new ways. *And He never will. *He is God and He changeth not.
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majick275
Guest
the very beginning (chapter 1 ) it tells that in the PAST god spoke to us through prophets but NOW he speaks through a son. (Jesus) the instruction is that Jesus gave us the “complete” word of God. the Catholic church is best able to speak to the meaning of the bible due to it’s role in the assembly and preservation of these writings AND because of the sacred Tradition in which the context is preserved as well as the original application. (not to mention the guiding role of the Holy Spirit)
your quote from John is not the least bit problematic either as God is 3 persons. they talk to each other, they share a bond that is beyond our understanding (the hypostatic union) but one they promise to share with us in the beatific vision. so literally we CAN become one with Jesus as he and the father are one if he takes into his presence and then shares this relationship with us. we can literally be given ALL that God has but only by him.
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twopekinguys
Guest
What? All of your “nun friends” at the convent never explained this to you? I thought you, the nuns, and the priest were all pals? I would have figured this would have come up before now.
Can anyone else see these nuns and priests besides you?
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zaffiroborant
Guest
LMAOWhat? All of your “nun friends” at the convent never explained this to you? I thought you, the nuns, and the priest were all pals? I would have figured this would have come up before now.
Can anyone else see these nuns and priests besides you?
I think Leo McCarey and Dudley Nichols could see them too.
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DLC
Guest
Mormons may have permitted poligamy but God never did. Read Deut. 17:17.
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J_C
Guest
hi DLC. do not fear, our mormon friends have a detailed analysis of this scripture which interprets on their side.
that is the major problem of arguing with a sectist over scripture. They will use the scriptures to their own devices. They usually start out with a preconceived notion and then make scripture fit that notion. The mormons are no different.
May God bless.
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xixxvmcm85
Guest
You won’t have to look far: Heb 1:1-2 (NAB)
“In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all hings and through whom he created the universe.”
I have a question for you though:
Where in the scriptures does it say that there must at all times (for the church to be viable) be a prophet in office?
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teancum79
Guest
I’m seeing a clear decoration that Christ is more important than a prophet of the past, but nothing here suggesting that God was done sending prophets.
Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, abut he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
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Benadam
Guest
"through whom he created the universe"
*in times past, God spoke in partial and various ways…*isn’t the author expressing a means of communication that lacks Himself? God is not variable nor can He be divided into parts.
*in these last days…*an expression that divides the present from the past.
He has spoken through a son… A person of a kind that is exclusive.
*"through whom He created the universe…*What more can be revealed that this person through whom this universe is created can’t reveal? Time, space, existence, All IS, Via Him.
first it expresses that communication in the past lackedGod in that it suffered division. secondly it seperates the former days that lacked from the present days. Thirdly it describes a new kind of person that God will speak ‘through’. Finally it describes the uniqueness of the person as a being outside of creation. Uncreated being.
What need is there of partial revelation? Revelation with variable sources? Revelation at all?
Through whom time is created…What is revealed transcends time. It defines reality. It describes a moment that describes the whole of history. So what it reveals describes creation in that moment and every moment thereafter. As the moment proceeds through time the revelation proceeds with it. describing creation.
Finally, Prophets like those before Jesus looked foreward into the future revealingf Christ. What purpose would that kind of prophet be to folks living in days called ‘the last’?
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teancum79
Guest
(sorry I did nto get back to this sooner).
The return of Christ would be something to look forward to. We also look back to his time on earth.
Revelation is needed to provided those who want to follow Christ with current guidance.
Did Paul say that everything God would ever want to tell anyone was going to be put into the Bible?
And also why would Christ himself not tell us that there would be no more prophets? What he did tells us was to be weary of false ones and that we would know them by their fruits. If he did not plan on sending more why not just say “There will never be another prophet”?
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Benadam
Guest
Sokay
Indeed. Except we don’t need prophecy for the former.
This is perhaps only a difference in terms. Catholics believe that since in Jesus the beginning and end are revealed there is nothing left to be revealed.
We ask the Holy Spirit ( HS is a Witness) to remind us of what is revealed ( eternity entered time in Jesus) in order that He will guide us in the present. In other words, we seek out an understanding of what is already revealed with the help of the Holy Spirit today who will lead us to a knowledge of the whole revelation. Too much can be too much according to Jesus, knowing as needed I think is His method. Perhaps you would call that revelation?
Nope. If He did what would His Spirit have to teach us eh?
Prophecy is fulfilled in Christ. Christ makes all things new. This is what happened to prophecy. It has been made new. Now prophecy is manifest in a new way with a new character. Incidentally, prophecy that is seeking it’s object would not be of Christ. Prophecy has found it’s object and reveals Him to guide us in the present. Jesus is the Lord of History and through Him we can look into even the forgotten past that God may want us to know.
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DLC
Guest
Ok lets take a look at what Paul said in Hebrews. The Bible gives us the answer to prophets.
Heb 1:1-4
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
Fist keep in mind God would never give a message to a prophet that would disagree with the Bible to say god said poligamy is ok is wrong because it disagrees with the Bible in Deut.17:17 and 1 Tim. 3.
We don,t need prophets today because wehave the Word of God and Christ.
Heb 1:1-4
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
Fist keep in mind God would never give a message to a prophet that would disagree with the Bible to say god said poligamy is ok is wrong because it disagrees with the Bible in Deut.17:17 and 1 Tim. 3.
We don,t need prophets today because wehave the Word of God and Christ.
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Filius99993
Guest
Are you sure? Bible Christians split (as are all non-Catholic) from the Catholic Church (off of some Calvinist or Lutheran denomination or another), which should automatically end all prophetic legitimacy whatsoever. Unless you claim that their was a prophet that came AFTER your church was formed. But then, why would your church form in the first place? If you’re a Bible Christian, and go by the Bible alone, there isn’t a mention of predestination… It’s a paradox, no matter which way you look at it.
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DLC
Guest
Yes absolutely sure. Positive. No, no no. This shows that you do know your history. Those with in the Church saw the need to follow the truth of God’s Word and not a religious sytem. Those without never belongd to the church at all. They felt the need to follow the church and never join it. What ended all prophetic legitimacy was the completion of Canon of Scripture the Bible.If there is prophetic needs for today then all will agree with the final authority the Word of God. Notice what the Bible says to us.
2 Peter 1:16-21
For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased” — 18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure (The BIBLE), **to which you do well to pay attention **as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture (notice it is prophecy, future events that in view here and not the whole Bible itself) is a matter of one’s own interpretation (we must compare one frophets message with another and they will never be in conflict), 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
NASU
Peter, James, and John saw the Lord in His glory on the of Transfiguration. This was a fantastic event. But As God tells us we have a more important witness to truth, The Word of God, The bible.
2 Peter 2:1-3
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
NASU
How do we know a false prophet? They teach false doctrine that are not found in the bible, like plural marriage. To deny the Master who baought is say that Jesus is not THEE God of CREATION and eternity.
The last true prophet was Jesus Christ Hebrews 1:1-8. Have you read this passage? There is a mention of predestination in the Bible. Eph 1:5
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
KJV
Eph 1:11
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
KJV
There are not prophets today and God never told anyone that it was ok to have more than one wife, period.
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teancum79
Guest
You know Abraham had >1 wife so did Jacob (who was latter called Israel) Their God seemed okay with the practice and I trust Him.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
God never commanded either one to take another wife. They did it on their own.
In the case of Abraham, it was directly against what an Angel had said was going to happen…That his WIFE was going to bear a son. They doubted God, and Abraham took a concubine in order to force God’s promise to happen.
God clearly came through on his promise when Sarah, by a miracle, conceived.
It is only a person with a view that God never forgives and shows His love and mercy, that would see this as condoning their sinful actions. God did not condone Abrahams actions, if you read the story you will clearly see that Abraham asked for God’s mercy in the treatment of his son by Hagar, who was NOT his WIFE.
Why? In this culture, a father would never ask for such a thing if they believed everything was all okee dokee with God. Abraham knew he screwed up, and asked God to bless his son he had by Hagar anyway. God FORGAVE Abraham, and blessed that son also.
And, there is the fact that Hagar was never a wife, she is always described as Sarah’s servant.
With Jacob, he was tricked. In that particular culture, a woman would be outcast if she were to have sexul intercourse with a man she was not married to. There was no place for an outcast woman to go. A woman had no way to support herself in that culture, other than prostitution. Jacob did not leave her to that fate.
That he took another wife is also a cultural practice, which was never, not once, commanded by God.
Joseph Smith claimed that God commanded polygamy, and he based it on very erroneous understandings of scripture.
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