Mormon/Polygamy question

[DLC]

Rebecca,
Please remember the idea of eating and drinking the blood of Christ is synonymous with believing, John 6:47. We use the same metphor when we say that you need to digest this thought, chew the cud over this idea, take in this idea, or to swallow the whole ball of wax. The Jews knew what Jesus meant and they never believed He was asking them to eat, in a physical sense, His body. Jesus only asks us to believe or trust in Him as ones personal Savior in order to be saved., John 3:16, 36, John 5:24; John 20:30-31; John 6:47. Eph 2:8-9; Acts 16:31.

 

[ibkc]

Rebecca,
Please remember the idea of eating and drinking the blood of Christ is synonymous with believing, John 6:47. We use the same metphor when we say that you need to digest this thought, chew the cud over this idea, take in this idea, or to swallow the whole ball of wax. The Jews knew what Jesus meant and they never believed He was asking them to eat, in a physical sense, His body. Jesus only asks us to believe or trust in Him as ones personal Savior in order to be saved.

So how do you explain these passages from John 6?
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Sounds to me like Jesus was pretty emphatic that He was speaking literally and it sounds to me like many of His Jewish followers were repulsed by what He was saying and left Him over it. The original Greek bears this out. He used the verb for “gnaw” or “chew”. He did NOT use or even imply any kind of symbolic meaning. His disciples knew this and many of them simply could not accept it. And that continues to this day, obviously.

 

[Benadam]

So how do you explain these passages from John 6?60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
Sounds to me like Jesus was pretty emphatic that He was speaking literally and it sounds to me like many of His Jewish followers were repulsed by what He was saying and left Him over it. The original Greek bears this out. He used the verb for “gnaw” or “chew”. He did NOT use or even imply any kind of symbolic meaning. His disciples knew this and many of them simply could not accept it. And that continues to this day, obviously.

It’s interesting that this particular time what Jesus taught was considered so radical and upsetting if what he was teaching was Himself as bread to digest metaphorically. He had taught that many times before. Wassup wit dat?

 

[DLC]

Simply the Jews misunderstood what Jesus meant. Q. Was Jesus telling them to commit canibalism? Of course not, so the jews missed His point of believing alone on Him, for salvation, John 6:28-29, 35, 40, 47. You see from these verses that Jesus was telling them to believe for salvation throught this chapter and then He said the same thing in a metaphore of eating and drinking. Salvation is always by faith apart from works in the God of Creation who takes away our sins.

In order to go to heaven we must be as righteous as God is. It is impossible to make ourselves this righteous through our own self efforts. This is why God, through out faith in Christ alone, gives us His righteousness as a gift, 2 Cor. 5:21, Eph 2:8-9.

 

[Filius99993]

Simply the Jews misunderstood what Jesus meant. Q. Was Jesus telling them to commit canibalism? Of course not, so the jews missed His point of believing alone on Him, for salvation, John 6:28-29, 35, 40, 47.

I think it’s really hypocritical for a sola scriptura Christian such as yourself to accuse Jews of misinterpreting Christ.

 

[Benadam]

Simply the Jews misunderstood what Jesus meant. Q. Was Jesus telling them to commit canibalism? Of course not, so the jews missed His point of believing alone on Him, for salvation, John 6:28-29, 35, 40, 47…

Everybody but the core group leaves because of something Jesus teaches with more clarity. Jesus uses metaphore for this?

 

[DLC]

The purpose of the book of John is found in John 20:30-31

Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; **and that believing you may have life in His name.**NASU

John would never say to us that his purpose for writing his book is so that after believe in His name may have life, then another place say that we have to work for our salvation or that communion saves. John used the word faith, trust, or believe over 80 times to in his gospel to show us what is need for salvation. In another gospel Paul said it this way Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
NASU

How more simpley could it be stated than what Paul says in Eph.
Salvation is by faith alone in Christ a part from any works that we may do. No anount of personal works could ever remove from us our sin problem or make us righteous enough to be fit for heaven.

 

[Benadam]

Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; **and that believing you may have life in His name.**NASU

Perhaps we conceptualize the passage differently. Who’s to say that the concepts you are attaching to the words are the concepts the author had in mind?

The words were written so that we may believe that Jesus is… and…that believing you may have…meaning to me…and that continuing to believe you may have life in His name.

John would never say to us that his purpose for writing his book is so that after believe in His name may have life, then another place say that we have to work for our salvation or that communion saves.

We don’t exist in eternity. We exist in a state of becoming. That’s why John said ‘believing’ rather than ‘believed’.

Wouldn’t John have said; ’ and once believed you may have…

John used the word faith, trust, or believe over 80 times to in his gospel to show us what is need for salvation. In another gospel Paul said it this way Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
NASU

From a perspective like St John’s or St Paul’s isn’t it more likely that they were refering to " When we were yet sinners ". Having lives so closely patterned after their Savior’s ‘doing’ as He did would be a gift that to many would appear as their own work. At the same time this kind of doing is what distinguishes a true disciple. Doing as He did in that Sacramental gift also sanctifies or ‘perfects’ the soul as He explained to the rich young man.

How more simpley could it be stated than what Paul says in Eph.
Salvation is by faith alone in Christ a part from any works that we may do. No anount of personal works could ever remove from us our sin problem or make us righteous enough to be fit for heaven.

Indeed, no person at any time in history could claim a good act as exclusively their own. On the other hand according to Jesus if we wish to be perfect we must do them.

 

[Cowbell76]

good morning, cowbell.

I don’t want to bombard you, as I see others far more capable than I have already posted excellent responses for you to consider.

but I have a question about this statement, which I quited above.

I have been doing some reading about the momron religion, and one thing that I have learned is that there are several versions of Joseph’s “first vision”. according to one report given by Joseph himself, the first vision did not involve the two personages you describe, for instance. I assume that you are aware of these varying descriptions of the first vision.

I wonder if, when you get time, you could lay out your means of resolving these varying reports by Joseph of the first vision.

thank you.

To answer your question:

There are in fact 8 seperate (not different) accounts of the first vision. It is my testimony that it is not important how it happened, but that it did happen.

 

[RebeccaJ]

To answer your question:

There are in fact 8 seperate (not different) accounts of the first vision. It is my testimony that it is not important how it happened, but that it did happen.

Different, as in, JS kept changing it to match his changing doctrines of diety.

 

[Cowbell76]

1 And it came to pass that as the disciples of Jesus were journeying and were preaching the things which they had both heard and seen, and were baptizing in the name of Jesus, it came to pass that the disciples were gathered together and were united in mighty prayer and fasting.
2 And Jesus again showed himself unto them, for they were praying unto the Father in his name; and Jesus came and stood in the midst of them, and said unto them: What will ye that I shall give unto you?
3 And they said unto him: Lord, we will that thou wouldst tell us the name whereby we shall call this church; for there are disputations among the people concerning this matter.
4 And the Lord said unto them: Verily, verily, I say unto you, why is it that the people should murmur and dispute because of this thing?
5 Have they not read the scriptures, which say ye must take upon you the name of Christ, which is my name? For by this name shall ye be called at the last day;
6 And whoso taketh upon him my name, and endureth to the end, the same shall be saved at the last day.
7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
9 Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;
10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.
11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.

I have been pondering this passage for a couple of days and has brought me to this question:

Why is the Catholic church called catholic and not the Church of Jesus Christ? For if it is the church handed down through tradition should it not bear his name? If I remember correctly catholic means the gift (I could be wrong) where is the name of Christ? On any of the catherdrals the name of Jesus Christ does not appear either. Where is he? Or in other words where is his name by that you do your works?

Just Curious

 

[Cowbell76]

There are no prophets today as Hebrews 1:1-8 tells us. We have Christ and the Bible and that is all we need.

The coming forth of the Book of Mormon is a sign that the Lord has commenced to gather Israel and fulfill his covenants—Those who reject his latter-day revelations and gifts shall be cursed. Between A.D. 34 and 35
1 And now behold, I say unto you that when the Lord shall see fit, in his wisdom, that these sayings shall come unto the Gentiles according to his word, then ye may know that the covenant which the Father hath made with the children of Israel, concerning their restoration to the lands of their inheritance, is already beginning to be fulfilled.
2 And ye may know that the words of the Lord, which have been spoken by the holy prophets, shall all be fulfilled; and ye need not say that the Lord delays his coming unto the children of Israel.
3 And ye need not imagine in your hearts that the words which have been spoken are vain, for behold, the Lord will remember his covenant which he hath made unto his people of the house of Israel.
4 And when ye shall see these sayings coming forth among you, then ye need not any longer spurn at the doings of the Lord, for the sword of his justice is in his right hand; and behold, at that day, if ye shall spurn at his doings he will cause that it shall soon overtake you.
5 Wo unto him that spurneth at the doings of the Lord; yea, wo unto him that shall deny the Christ and his works!
6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost!
7 Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get again, that there can be no miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become like unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!
8 Yea, and ye need not any longer hiss, nor spurn, nor make game of the Jews, nor any of the remnant of the house of Israel; for behold, the Lord remembereth his covenant unto them, and he will do unto them according to that which he hath sworn.
9 Therefore ye need not suppose that ye can turn the right hand of the Lord unto the left, that he may not execute judgment unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the house of Israel.

 

[RC_Matt]

The coming forth of the Book of Mormon is a sign that the Lord has commenced to gather Israel and fulfill his covenants—Those who reject his latter-day revelations and gifts shall be cursed.

So, let me see if I’ve got this right…. You’re saying that we all have to become Mormons or we’re going to be cursed? Like we’re all gonna burn in hell or something if we don’t fall in line behind Joseph Smith, et. al.? Is that what your church has taught you?

 

[Cowbell76]

Those who reject his latter-day revelations and gifts shall be cursed.

God himself said this - not the mormons. Read the text a little closer. When plainness is spoken they harden their hearts against it for they understand it not.

 

[RC_Matt]

Why is the Catholic church called catholic and not the Church of Jesus Christ? For if it is the church handed down through tradition should it not bear his name? If I remember correctly catholic means the gift (I could be wrong) where is the name of Christ? On any of the catherdrals the name of Jesus Christ does not appear either. Where is he? Or in other words where is his name by that you do your works?

Just Curious

Dude, it came to pass that “catholic” means “universal.” The Catholic Church means the “universal church.” “Church” means either all of Christendom, or a specific Christian community. Mormonsim does not meet either one of those qualifications, therefore should not be called a “church” at all.

 

[Cowbell76]

6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost!

a little further clarification.

 

[RC_Matt]

Those who reject his latter-day revelations and gifts shall be cursed.

God himself said this - not the mormons. Read the text a little closer. When plainness is spoken they harden their hearts against it for they understand it not.

Dude, even I, a cradle Catholic, apparently know more about what Mormonism teaches than you do. I’d explain it to you, but I’m tired of teaching Mormon catechism to Mormons.

Discuss it with your bishop.

 

[Cowbell76]

Dude, it came to pass that “catholic” means “universal.” The Catholic Church means the “universal church.” “Church” means either all of Christendom, or a specific Christian community. Mormonsim does not meet either one of those qualifications, therefore should not be called a “church” at all.

You are dancing around the issue’ as many do when they are confounded. Why is your church not called the Church of Jesus Christ. Is it not his? If it is his why does it not bear his name?

 

[teancum79]

do you really think anyone here answers real questions?

I think I’m running about a 25% response ratio to mine.

 

[Benadam]

Why is the Catholic church called catholic and not the Church of Jesus Christ? For if it is the church handed down through tradition should it not bear his name? If I remember correctly catholic means the gift (I could be wrong) where is the name of Christ? On any of the catherdrals the name of Jesus Christ does not appear either. Where is he? Or in other words where is his name by that you do your works?

Just Curious

The Name and the Named are initmately interwoven. We write our names on earth and it becomes visible through our acts.

In this way the name and the named are one. The name shares in the being of the named.

To do something in a person’s name is to do something in the pattern revealed by the visible life of the named. What is the meaning of alife? That is what a name means. We act as they act.

In this light those who would act in another’s name by necessity cannot claim the name as their own. A name is not just a sound one responds too. Your name is what you are. When Eve bore Cain she said " I have got me a man" Cain means ‘acquired’. When Rachel bore Benjamin she suffered and eventually died. She named her child ‘son of my grief’. Afterwards, probably for the sake of the child Jacob renamed his son ‘son of my righteousness’. Although these names don’t make obvious the profound depth of being that a spirit’s name is to a spirit.

In John’s Gospel Jesus is refered to as the Word through whom everything that is came to be. This universality permeates everything Jesus taught and did. ’ No division of race, gender nation etc. This universality is exclusive to Christ. God’s creations possess His perfections and in the infinite multiplicity of perfections God reveals Himself. This multiplicity of perfections leading to a universal perfection is how creation makes God visible. That Universal meaning of creation is also what the Church means and that is reflected in the Church’s name. The Catholic Church is the Universal Church and that is what Catholic means