Mormon PR Campaign: Do Good Individuals Equal A Good Church?

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Diana, you will get no argument from me about non-Mormons ignorance when it comes to the role of Mormon women and their place in early Mormon culture. I, too, can remember talking myself blue in the face to non-Mormons about the Mormon women rights, esp prior to UT becoming a state and after it’s statehood. 🙂

With that many don’t realize it was illegal for a Catholic to vote or hold public office prior to the Declaration of Independence.

catholiceducation.org/articles/history/us/ah0016.html

Both Mormons and Catholics have been on the receiving end of discrimination and misunderstands during various parts of this country’s life (most forget that America was born of a very strong WASP influence)

It takes time for cultures to evolve and get over their fear and prejudices of minorities. America has been no different. Whether it’s religious differences, or for women, or immigrants.

Hope you have a wonderful evening and a fulfilling and uplifting Sabbath day tomorrow! 👍
 
Not sure what LJ ment by “women’s rights” but both faith traditions can claim, and rightfully so, that, if a close study is made, women certainly have had rights.
My issue with women’s rights and Mormonism is that a woman, according to LDS theology, cannot get to heaven unless her husband guides her there. Related to that is that a mother cannot give a “blessing” to her children, because her husband has the “priesthood.” In polygamy, a woman had no right to put her foot down, and refuse to accept becoming a co-wife. She was basically forced to accept the situation. And, the most revealing thing is that a woman who has been married cannot re-marry in the temple, unless her previous husband was unworthy. And this is all related to polygamy, and marriage “for eternity.”

Yes, Utah was an early state to advocate the vote for women, BUT, were women actually free to vote for who they wanted, or were they controlled by their husbands?
 
My issue with women’s rights and Mormonism is that a woman, according to LDS theology, cannot get to heaven unless her husband guides her there. Related to that is that a mother cannot give a “blessing” to her children, because her husband has the “priesthood.” In polygamy, a woman had no right to put her foot down, and refuse to accept becoming a co-wife. She was basically forced to accept the situation. And, the most revealing thing is that a woman who has been married cannot re-marry in the temple, unless her previous husband was unworthy. And this is all related to polygamy, and marriage “for eternity.”

Yes, Utah was an early state to advocate the vote for women, BUT, were women actually free to vote for who they wanted, or were they controlled by their husbands?
LJ, I see the point you are trying to make. But it’s an unfair point in terms of LDS theology because an LDS man can’t be exaulted either without being sealed.

In LDS theology a person HAS to be sealed to their spouse under the authority of their priesthood. Men and women. I see that as an equality between the sexes.

Now, it’s fair to say a man, in LDS theology, can be sealed to more than one woman but a woman only to one man. However, at least in Old Testament times, a man having multiple wives, (or a wife and her handmaiden) wasnt unheard of.

So, to be fair, look to the Old Testament, and know that a man, called of God, was sleeping with more than just his wife. And doing so with his wife’s permission/encouragement.

Mormons’ arent pulling that one out of their butts. Sorry.
 
LOL and some men will use ANY excuse to exercise unfair domination over their wives. Some good points, there, Marie.
 
LOL and some men will use ANY excuse to exercise unfair domination over their wives. Some good points, there, Marie.
If we want people to at least try and understand our theology, even if they completely disagree with it, it never hurts to try and understand the whys and wherefore’s of their theology in a charitable manner.

Abraham, Jacob (Israel), David, etc., DID have relationships with more than one woman. I dont think any Bible reading Christian would disagree with those facts.

And in the case of Abraham and Jacob (Israel) with the encouragement and approval of their wives.
 
Diana, you will get no argument from me about non-Mormons ignorance when it comes to the role of Mormon women and their place in early Mormon culture. I, too, can remember talking myself blue in the face to non-Mormons about the Mormon women rights, esp prior to UT becoming a state and after it’s statehood. 🙂

With that many don’t realize it was illegal for a Catholic to vote or hold public office prior to the Declaration of Independence.

catholiceducation.org/articles/history/us/ah0016.html

Both Mormons and Catholics have been on the receiving end of discrimination and misunderstands during various parts of this country’s life (most forget that America was born of a very strong WASP influence)

It takes time for cultures to evolve and get over their fear and prejudices of minorities. America has been no different. Whether it’s religious differences, or for women, or immigrants.

Hope you have a wonderful evening and a fulfilling and uplifting Sabbath day tomorrow! 👍
I’m not going to argue with you regarding this either–I know that Catholics had a very hard time once the Reformation got its teeth into the Christian cultural and political life!
 
I have to correct one error I thought I saw,

Wyoming Territory gave women the right to vote in1869, one year before Utah 😃
 
I have to correct one error I thought I saw,

Wyoming Territory gave women the right to vote in1869, one year before Utah 😃
OK. 😃
And in the case of Abraham and Jacob (Israel) with the encouragement and approval of their wives.
In the case of a sterile marriage, and if adoption is not acceptable, I can see that. Solomon Spalding may have been troubled by that, even though he did have an adopted daughter, she may not have satisfied his longing for descendants. 🤷 Just one little dig I couldn’t resist. In some cultures, it is acceptable for a man in a sterile marriage to allow a best friend, or brother, access to his wife for the purpose of conceiving a descendant.
 
My issue with women’s rights and Mormonism is that a woman, according to LDS theology, cannot get to heaven unless her husband guides her there.
In LDS doctrine, neither the man OR the woman can reach full exhaltation alone; she can’t get there without him…and he can’t get there without her. " Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, nether the woman without the man, in the Lord." 1 Cor. 11:11. We really mean that part.

However, if one member of a couple messes up, then it will be possible for the other one to get there–with someone else. There is nothing that prohibits a woman from going to heaven exactly the same as a man does, LJ.
Related to that is that a mother cannot give a “blessing” to her children, because her husband has the “priesthood.”
No, a woman cannot give a priesthood blessing to her child, because women don’t hold the priesthood. She can, however, pray for her child and have her faith rewarded. So how is that different in Catholicism? Well, except for the fact that in Catholicism the child’s father can’t give a priesthood blessing to his child, either?
In polygamy, a woman had no right to put her foot down, and refuse to accept becoming a co-wife. She was basically forced to accept the situation.
Sorry, but no. In actuallity, the wife had pretty much all the power there. She could be pressured, but if she said no, it was no, the vast majority of the time. That power was reserved to her.
And, the most revealing thing is that a woman who has been married cannot re-marry in the temple, unless her previous husband was unworthy. And this is all related to polygamy, and marriage “for eternity.”
LJ, it would be a really good idea if you got the facts before you make statements like this.
Yes, Utah was an early state to advocate the vote for women, BUT, were women actually free to vote for who they wanted, or were they controlled by their husbands?
Oh, now…that’s exactly the **** that the Feds used to dictate to Utah when they told 'em to take the vote AWAY from the women before they could be a state.

You can, of course, ask the question, but the answer is—(and I’m still trying REALLY hard to curb my temper…) it was, as it remains, a SECRET BALLOT, my friend. As in…once in the voting booth nobody knows who voted how. Mormon women were at that time, as they are now, better educated than almost any other group of women in America. (Jewish and atheist women are running ahead of us by a wee bit…and Catholic women fall far behind.). They were doctors. They were writers and artists…and they were also stubborn, opinionated and quite outspoken. They didn’t put up with much.

The point is, LJ, Mormon women could vote before almost any other American woman could…and they excercised that right freqently, and independently. They had a LOT more say in their personal and family lives that you want to think they did, they are no more dependent upon their husbands for exhaltation than their husbands are upon them, and I have news for you: a Mormon woman can marry again in the Temple if she chooses to–SHE gets to decide whether she wants to keep the one she had, or try again with someone else. She can get a cancellation of sealing; she doesn’t have to wait for her husband to do it.

…speaking of marrital rights, a Mormon woman whose husband has dumped her for someone else CAN divorce him, kick him to the curb and find someone worthy of her–and become sealed to him in the Temple.

A Catholic woman, evidently, can’t. If the Catholic guy runs off and fools around with someone else, leaving her behind, she’s…stuck, unless she can get a priest to declare that her original marriage was never really a marriage. Which, I understand, isn’t all that easy.

Hmmn. Oddly enough, that doesn’t sound as if the MORMON is the one who is denied the rights.
 
…speaking of marrital rights, a Mormon woman whose husband has dumped her for someone else CAN divorce him, kick him to the curb and find someone worthy of her–and become sealed to him in the Temple.

A Catholic woman, evidently, can’t. If the Catholic guy runs off and fools around with someone else, leaving her behind, she’s…stuck, unless she can get a priest to declare that her original marriage was never really a marriage. Which, I understand, isn’t all that easy.
LOL. 👍 Touche. 🙂

To be fair here, too, though, that isn’t gender specific. Catholic guy would face the same problem as a Catholic woman. 😉

(But I know the point you are making)
 
A Catholic woman, evidently, can’t. If the [non-Christian guy, say of Mormon cultural heritage] runs off and fools around with [his previous ex], she’s…stuck, [but can ask the Marriage Tribunal to declare that her original marriage was never really a marriage. Chances are good, especially if wife number three was simply desperate to have children and family]
Particularly if he re-marries wife number 2 immediately after the divorce is final. 👍 But perhaps ex-wife number three was so burned by the situation she doesn’t want to re-marry. No more questions, I presume.
 
And the misconceptions of Mormons as polygamists are inaccurate.

They need to focus on one male and one female marriage model. 🤷
We need to remember that we are in a culture that allows Polygamy, just serially and not in parallel.

The LDS Church does still teach Polygyny (multiple wives) as a condition of heaven so that if a man’s wife dies and he remarries,he will have both as wives in heaven.

The actual practice of polygyny is only still practiced by heretical sects that are excommunicated by the LDS church.
 
Particularly if he re-marries wife number 2 immediately after the divorce is final. 👍 But perhaps ex-wife number three was so burned by the situation she doesn’t want to re-marry. No more questions, I presume.
Well, this explains some of the bitterness…but you substituted a few things incorrectly. We ARE, after all, talking about two LDS people who were married in the Temple, not a Catholic and a non-Catholic—which marriage, I understand, is automatically considered non-binding in Catholic thought?

Please compare apples to apples, not apples to broccoli. What if the man and wife concerned here were both Catholic, married in a full on Catholic ceremony?

Oh…and given the obvious beliefs held by wife number three, what in the world was she doing getting married to a man who had messed up two previous marriages, anyway?
 
My issue with women’s rights and Mormonism is that a woman, according to LDS theology, cannot get to heaven unless her husband guides her there. Related to that is that a mother cannot give a “blessing” to her children, because her husband has the “priesthood.” In polygamy, a woman had no right to put her foot down, and refuse to accept becoming a co-wife. She was basically forced to accept the situation. And, the most revealing thing is that a woman who has been married cannot re-marry in the temple, unless her previous husband was unworthy. And this is all related to polygamy, and marriage “for eternity.”

Yes, Utah was an early state to advocate the vote for women, BUT, were women actually free to vote for who they wanted, or were they controlled by their husbands?
And what year was it when they allowed women to pray during the Sacrament meeting?
 
Catholics have not been, historically, known for being really fond of women’s rights–but Mormon women were voting and had equal rights with men in terms of property from the beginnig.
The “beginning” to which you refer is 1830, in New York, founded by Joseph Smith, a treasure seeker, who “saw things” by looking through “peep stones” in his hat. The 2000-year-old Catholic Church, which built western civilization, was founded by the God-Man Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Hardly a comparison.
 
If we want people to at least try and understand our theology, even if they completely disagree with it, it never hurts to try and understand the whys and wherefore’s of their theology in a charitable manner.

Abraham, Jacob (Israel), David, etc., DID have relationships with more than one woman. I dont think any Bible reading Christian would disagree with those facts.

And in the case of Abraham and Jacob (Israel) with the encouragement and approval of their wives.
Mt 5:31 - “It was also said [by Moses], ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

Christ said Moses was wrong even to even allow divorce. Mt 19:3-5 - ". . . Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause? He answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife [singular] and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.”

Mt 19:8-9 - He said to them, “For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.”

A man or woman in a valid, sacramental marriage (under God) may divorce, for just reason, but if he/she marries another while his/her spouse is still living, he/she commits adultery.
Polygamy is adulterous many times over.

This is Christianity. This is another reason why Mormonism, with its now suppressed teaching on polygamy, is not Christian.

Scriptures from the Protestant RSV.

Jim Dandy
 
We need to remember that we are in a culture that allows Polygamy, just serially and not in parallel.

The LDS Church does still teach Polygyny (multiple wives) as a condition of heaven so that if a man’s wife dies and he remarries,he will have both as wives in heaven.

The actual practice of polygyny is only still practiced by heretical sects that are excommunicated by the LDS church.
According to Webster:

Polygamy: the condition or practice of having more than one spouse, esp. a wife, at one time.

Polygyny: the condition or practice of having more than one wife at one time.

Polyandry: the condition or practice of having more than one husband at one time.

The practice of polygamy (or polygyny) in Mormonism is merely “on hold” – it was supressed, not denounced or condemned – in order for Utah to become a state. It is still the preferred form of Mormon marriage, and is practiced in the Mormon afterlife, as it is in the Mormon “pre-existence.” Multiple Gods have multiple goddess wives who help them procreate “spirit children” to populate their worlds. All Mormons who qualify for “exaltation” will become Gods (and Goddesses) and enjoy this same life on their own world forever. “Exaltation” requires faithful tithing and obedience to the rules. Polygamy is still extolled in the Mormon “scriptures.”

Joseph Smith received a revelation from God, tailor made for his wife, Emma, putting Emma on notice BY NAME that she was to accept Joe’s other wives or else she would be destroyed. It’s my favorite quotation from the Doctrine and Covenants.

Christian? :nope:
 
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