Mormon PR Campaign: Do Good Individuals Equal A Good Church?

[RebeccaJ]

Smith and others close to him (including Brigham Young) also practiced polyandry…ie, men took for them a polygamous wife who was already married to another man.

 

[Todd520]

Man has this thread gotten way off topic!

IMHO - Good people are essential but not sufficient for a Good Church

Creating Good people requires education and community
Every parish/ward must deliver these benefits, or it is failing to make Good people and is not a good church
At the end of the day, a church is always local

 

[dianaiad]

The “beginning” to which you refer is 1830, in New York, founded by Joseph Smith, a treasure seeker, who “saw things” by looking through “peep stones” in his hat. The 2000-year-old Catholic Church, which built western civilization, was founded by the God-Man Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Hardly a comparison.

Your opinion of our beginnings is noted…and is certainly your right…as is your opinion of Catholic beginnings. I disagree with them, of course—but your opinion and my opinion of our joint beginnigs is irrelevant.

The facts are still as I stated them.

 

[dianaiad]

a.d. 33.

Interesting. Y’all were celebrating Mass two years or so before Jesus was crucified?
…and lay women are allowed to celebrate Mass?

 

[PRmerger]

Interesting. Y’all were celebrating Mass two years or so before Jesus was crucified?
…and lay women are allowed to celebrate Mass?

Hey, Diana!

(Sorry to usurp this thread, but I don’t think you answer PMs so I have to ask this publicly)…

What’s the quote you had a few months ago in your signature that went something like this:

“The mark of a humble man is the person who changes his mind even if the person he was arguing with will crow about it and take it as a victory”.

or something like that.

Clearly, it was more eloquent than what I posted.

 

[PRmerger]

Interesting question…

What year were women allowed to pray in Mass?

The first Mass was the Last Supper.

Women, of course, were there. It was a supper, wasn’t it? (Who did the cooking?)

Of course women were allowed to pray there!

 

[Marie5890]

Interesting question…

What year were women allowed to pray in Mass?

Diana are you asking what year women were allowed to pray in Mass?

Then you posted "Interesting. Y’all were celebrating Mass two years or so before Jesus was crucified?
…and lay women are allowed to celebrate Mass? "

Or celebrate it?

You chose two different words that, I am sure you realize, have distinctly different meanings in Catholic theology.

Catholic women are no more going to celebrate the Mass any more than Mormon women are going to administer the Mormon Sacrament.

And for the same reason. The Man from Nazareth was a dude, it was His mom that was the dudette!!

 

[dianaiad]

Hey, Diana!

(Sorry to usurp this thread, but I don’t think you answer PMs so I have to ask this publicly)…

What’s the quote you had a few months ago in your signature that went something like this:

“The mark of a humble man is the person who changes his mind even if the person he was arguing with will crow about it and take it as a victory”.

or something like that.

Clearly, it was more eloquent than what I posted.

I answer PM’s, PRmerger! (well, I do unless the person sending it is on my ignore list, anyway…in which case I don’t even see them) Have you sent me one I didn’t answer? If so, I’m sorry.

…and yeah, that’s pretty close to what I wrote. So…do you have the answer to this question regarding whether laywomen can celebrate Mass? (I found out where in some period of history an Abbess could.) I haven’t found anything about that.

Mormon women have been allowed to offer public prayer and speak in Sacrament meeting since the beginning.

 

[PRmerger]

I answer PM’s, PRmerger! (well, I do unless the person sending it is on my ignore list, anyway…in which case I don’t even see them) Have you sent me one I didn’t answer? If so, I’m sorry.

Yep, I sure did. But, no biggie.

and yeah, that’s pretty close to what I wrote.

Oh! It was your quote, not something you were citing?

So…do you have the answer to this question regarding whether laywomen can celebrate Mass? (I found out where in some period of history an Abbess could.) I haven’t found anything about that.

Mormon women have been allowed to offer public prayer and speak in Sacrament meeting since the beginning.

Catholic women have been abbesses, mother superiors, CEOs of hospitals, orphanages, doctors of the church and have been able to pray since the Virgin Mary, the first Catholic woman, offered her beautiful Magnificat.

But celebrate Mass? No. Ontologically impossible. Women just can’t be fathers.

 

[dianaiad]

The first Mass was the Last Supper.

Women, of course, were there. It was a supper, wasn’t it? (Who did the cooking?)

Of course women were allowed to pray there!

As Tokotikiguy was referring, not to private prayer, but to public prayer (as in opening/closing) and perhaps even speaking in Sacrament meeting, I was refering to the equivalent; Catholic women who were allowed to publically celebrate Mass, as a priest is.

,and cooking the food for the Last Supper is no more participating and officiating in it any more than baking the wafers is the same as consecrating them for administrating the Eucharist.

By the way, there is absolutely no evidence (absent some speculation about the presence of Mary Magdalene) that there was anybody at the last supper but Jesus and His apostles. It was held in an ‘upper room,’ a meeting room separate from the household. Certainly there is no indication anywhere (including Sacred Tradition as far as I am aware!) that there were women in on the meeting. I know, there are a lot of 'could’ves…" but not a single 'yep, she was there."

…and before I get nailed again, no, I do not think that this is proof that there were no women there. There is simply no mention of any.

 

[PRmerger]

As Tokotikiguy was referring, not to private prayer, but to public prayer (as in opening/closing) and perhaps even speaking in Sacrament meeting, I was refering to the equivalent; Catholic women who were allowed to publically celebrate Mass, as a priest is.

No. Women have never publicly celebrated the Mass. It’s ontologically impossible. Women cannot be fathers.

and cooking the food for the Last Supper is no more participating and officiating in it any more than baking the wafers is the same as consecrating them for administrating the Eucharist.

Well, of course. I never said that the women who cooked the food at the Last Supper consecrated the Eucharist. :whacky:

By the way, there is absolutely no evidence (absent some speculation about the presence of Mary Magdalene) that there was anybody at the last supper but Jesus and His apostles. It was held in an ‘upper room,’ a meeting room separate from the household. Certainly there is no indication anywhere (including Sacred Tradition as far as I am aware!) that there were women in on the meeting. I know, there are a lot of 'could’ves…" but not a single 'yep, she was there."

…and before I get nailed again, no, I do not think that this is proof that there were no women there. There is simply no mention of any.

Agreed. Women were not in the upper room most likely. But whether they were allowed to pray, why in the heck wouldn’t they be allowed to pray?

I am a latecomer to the conversation–I only joined to ask you about the quote I saw in your signature.

Anyway, can you articulate it better than I did–how you had it in your signature? I liked it!

 

[dianaiad]

Diana are you asking what year women were allowed to pray in Mass?

Then you posted "Interesting. Y’all were celebrating Mass two years or so before Jesus was crucified?
…and lay women are allowed to celebrate Mass? "

Or celebrate it?

You chose two different words that, I am sure you realize, have distinctly different meanings in Catholic theology.

I am aware that ‘celebrate’ has a very special meaning in regards to Catholics and Mass–which is why I used it. I am quite sure that Catholic women are allowed to pray in church; that’s obvious. However, the inference was that Mormon women were not allowed to have official parts in our Sacrament meetings: no public prayers, or perhaps even speaking. What we do in Sacrament Meeting (the opening/closing prayers and the speakers) are as close as we get to ‘celebrating’ in the Catholic term of the word.

…and LDS women have been ‘officiating’ (or rather, giving public prayers and speaking in church) since the beginning.

Catholic women are no more going to celebrate the Mass any more than Mormon women are going to administer the Mormon Sacrament.

And for the same reason. The Man from Nazareth was a dude, it was His mom that was the dudette!!

 

[Marie5890]

I think I see where there may be a bit of confusion.

There is something known as the “Order of the Mass”…

With in that there are various parts including what is known as the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. They are separate.

There was a time when only priest and deacons could do the “Liturgy of the Word” (ie the readings)…Not even laymen were allowed this is my understanding…

That has evolved. Both laymen and women who are commissioned (I think that is the word) can do the non-Gospel readings…Still only a deacon or priest can declare the Gospel…

The Liturgy of the Eurcharist is the priest only…(the deacon can assist him, but he doesnt do the consecration)

I expect there are more informed Catholics that can explain…

It is the priest who opens and closes the Mass with formal prayer (I have never seen a deacon do this)…The priest also leads in the penitential act…

It’s not like ANY layman can do these (open and close the Mass with the formal prayers extra) so it’s not gender specific those terms…

The priest (and deacon) have gone thru the sacrament known as Holy Orders…

(none of this is unusal if one remember the Christianity is the continuing forward of Judiasm…Its not like women were ever allowed to officiate in the temple sacrifices etc…even then its not like any man could either…Looking back into the Jewish traditions of worship, sacrifice etc, is a pre-cursor to understanding the Mass)

 

[dianaiad]

Yep, I sure did. But, no biggie.

Oh! It was your quote, not something you were citing?

Catholic women have been abbesses, mother superiors, CEOs of hospitals, orphanages, doctors of the church and have been able to pray since the Virgin Mary, the first Catholic woman, offered her beautiful Magnificat.

But celebrate Mass? No. Ontologically impossible. Women just can’t be fathers.

Well, there you go.

Mormon women do not hold the priesthood, either…but we have the Relief Society, which is very much the same sort of thing you are referring to.

 

[dianaiad]

No. Women have never publicly celebrated the Mass. It’s ontologically impossible. Women cannot be fathers.

Well, of course. I never said that the women who cooked the food at the Last Supper consecrated the Eucharist. :whacky:

Agreed. Women were not in the upper room most likely. But whether they were allowed to pray, why in the heck wouldn’t they be allowed to pray?

I am a latecomer to the conversation–I only joined to ask you about the quote I saw in your signature.

Anyway, can you articulate it better than I did–how you had it in your signature? I liked it!

Oh, dear…

I’m going to have to go back a bit, because I can’t quite remember how I put it! Something like: “True courage is in doing the right thing, even when your enemies will see it as a victory for them, and gloat.”

(grin) I think it gets more or less…curmudgeonly…depending upon my mood.

 

[stormy99]

Well, there you go.

Mormon women do not hold the priesthood, either…but we have the Relief Society, which is very much the same sort of thing you are referring to.

**The Relief Society is not the same as giving the readings during the Mass…which Catholic women do all around the world every day. They are not in another room, they are church with us…extraordinary ministers administer the sacraments and many in our parish are women…is that a job for the women of the Relief Society? It wasn’t when I was a Mormon.

stormy**

 

[dianaiad]

The Relief Society is not the same as giving the readings during the Mass

No, I meant the sort of thing you were refering to in regard to the role of women in the Catholic church in terms of service.
stormy99;7080256:

…which Catholic women do all around the world every day. They are not in another room, they are church with us…extraordinary ministers administer the sacraments and many in our parish are women…is that a job for the women of the Relief Society? It wasn’t when I was a Mormon.

stormy

Nobody blesses and administers the Sacrament but priesthood holders. However, women now, and have always, been able to open and close meetings with prayer, and speak in church (give talks…)

So…I think we have established that this attempt to portray Mormon women as downtrodden, illiterate second class citizens who are utterly subservient and subject to men is now defeated?

 

[benidict]

No, I meant the sort of thing you were refering to in regard to the role of women in the Catholic church in terms of service.

Nobody blesses and administers the Sacrament but priesthood holders. However, women now, and have always, been able to open and close meetings with prayer, and speak in church (give talks…)

So…I think we have established that this attempt to portray Mormon women as downtrodden, illiterate second class citizens who are utterly subservient and subject to men is now defeated?

ive never viewed LDS women to be subservient and downtrodden. but…correct me if im wrong my friend, is it not taught in the COJCOLDS that a woman must have a husband to be ressurected?and that their eternal state is that of an eternal incubator? that in a sense puts them in a lower class than the men. its interesting to note too, that humanly speaking, women do not need men. men however for some odd reason really need a female! then of course there are the odd balls like myself, who are complete in and of themselves and need no-one. i hope to God your Church is wrong about polygamy in heaven. i wouldnt even want to deal with one on earth here…lol! Peace

 

[Marie5890]

While I can see that the LDS doctrine of polygamy may give rise to the stereotype of a down trodden and illiterate Mormon pioneer woman of the late 19th century for those non-Mormons who vehemently oppose polygamy , I don’t believe that kind of stereotype exists for the present day LDS woman. I know I never felt it in my LDS days and I have been out almost 20 years now…

If anything what I experience was more of just an general ignorance. I found many confused us with our Amish brothers and sisters…

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Your opinion of our beginnings is noted…and is certainly your right…as is your opinion of Catholic beginnings. I disagree with them, of course—but your opinion and my opinion of our joint beginnigs is irrelevant.

The facts are still as I stated them.

It is not my “opinion” – it is verifiable, historical fact.

Political “rights” – such as voting rights – are the province of the State, not the Church.