Mormon President

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You do know that an excatholic could appear on a TV show and claim: ‘When I left the catholic church I became a christian. I saw the grace in the scriptures and how I was saved by believing in Jesus. Now I confess my sins to the lord and not to a priest. Finally I found Jesus’.

You know that this could happen, right?
Here is a great article from CA on confession. It is a great information.

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9810fea2.asp

Catholics have it all, that is one reason that I won’t ever leave…The Bible~ New and Old testament, The Trinity, The Blessed Mother praying for us in Heaven, along with the intercession of all the Angels and Saints the list goes on and on. The more help to try and get to heaven the better. I guess I am selfish…I want all the help that I can get…
 
Here is a great article from CA on confession. It is a great information.

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9810fea2.asp

Catholics have it all, that is one reason that I won’t ever leave…The Bible~ New and Old testament, The Trinity, The Blessed Mother praying for us in Heaven, along with the intercession of all the Angels and Saints the list goes on and on. The more help to try and get to heaven the better. I guess I am selfish…I want all the help that I can get…
Well, I can’t disagree with you. But my example can still be valid. People leave their faith for many reasons and for most, they need to find justification for doing so. It is only human. The catholic faith has much to offer a human being. I know because I have been attending Mass again with a new insight and I have met many good catholics who are now my friends.
 
majick275;2018274:
I wrote what you quoted allweather as saying. I wanted to clarify that. Now about Martin Harris. Martin Harris never denied what he saw. However antimormons often claim that later Martin said that he saw the book with ‘spiritual eyes’ as if he were hullucinating about the book. But to my recollection, he never denied what he saw. And that says alot. The problem with Mormonism, is that there are all these witnesses to the book and no one actually denied their testimony even after leaving the church. David Whitmer perhaps left the strongest testimony of the book.

And yet, there are various interpretations out there about it all and various heresay stories. But the lds church still survives. The mormon church has an interesting history. It is unique. Even Oliver Cowdery one of the witnesses to the book of mormon left the church at one time over polygamy. He later returned. He never denied what happened to him at that time when he was transcribing the book of mormon and with Joseph Smith when the priesthood was restored. How to figure that one out? I can’t and this is why the mormon story is an enigma.

Mitt is a part of that church with an interesting story. He must not be that bad.
as best as I can tell, Harris never denied his testimony of the shaker scriptures either. many muslims swear by the testimonies of the companions of mohamed regarding the koran. many churches/religions with scriptures of their own still survive. there were certainly financial incentives for Oliver Cowdery, david whitmer and even emma smith to continue with their own versions of what happened. I wonder how many people really know what happened the BoM was being “transcribed”. do they know that joseph placed the seer stone (which has been displayed at BYU and is locked away in the LDs vaults) in his hat and dictated what to write without the plates even being visibly in the room on some occasions. oliver, harris and emma all served a scribes. as to the restoration of preisthood, why not moroni since he would have been the last with the keys? or the 3 nephites? or john? what was described seems to make little sense. some accounts indicate that when oliver “heard” the lord at that “restoration” it sounded a lot like sidney rigdon. in any case you shouldn’t discount the role rigdon played in editing the BoM, writing the D&C and establishing much of the structure and practices of the LDS church. i find mormonism interesting but only enigmatic in the intelligent and educate, good, kind people who seem to be duped by it.
 
i find mormonism interesting but only enigmatic in the intelligent and educate, good, kind people who seem to be duped by it.
I have to go off the boards right now but I will try to respond to your post later…take care and thanks for the response. 🙂
 
Well, I can’t disagree with you. But my example can still be valid. People leave their faith for many reasons and for most, they need to find justification for doing so. It is only human. The catholic faith has much to offer a human being. I know because I have been attending Mass again with a new insight and I have met many good catholics who are now my friends.
Good for you!!! I will keep you in my prayers…Happy Journey!!!
 
why me;2018676:
I find mormonism interesting but only enigmatic in the intelligent and educate, good, kind people who seem to be duped by it.
So true. It is really sad!!! I know a lot of good Mormons too. I pray for their converstion to Christianity. Catholicism would be even better, since they think they are very similar to the Catholics.
 
You do know that an excatholic could appear on a TV show and claim: ‘When I left the catholic church I became a christian. I saw the grace in the scriptures and how I was saved by believing in Jesus. Now I confess my sins to the lord and not to a priest. Finally I found Jesus’.

You know that this could happen, right?
of course it happens all the time. that is why you have to listen to what they say, research it in the light of scripture, tradition, history and common sense. think about it, pray about and see what matches up with God says. he is absolutely consistent. you can verify peoples claims if you really want to.
 
Did these mormon communities make mistakes? Yes, they did. But in a country that supposed religious freedom and toleration, what happened to the mormon community was a travesty of justice. They were prevented from practicing their religion and that is a blight on religious freedom in a country that professed religious freedom.
History shows that both sides had blood on their hands, something you won’t usually hear from present-day LDS. And there are limits to the freedoms associated with the practice of religion–even in the USA. One of the limits the Mormons crossed early on was polygamy. When the surrounding communities got wind of this practice among the Mormons, they became enraged and very suspicious of the LDS. Polygamy caused much turmoil and led to much of the persecution. Did the Mormons get a bad deal?–yes. Did they bring a lot of it on themselves?–yes. Religious freedom doesn’t mean you can do whatever you want, and polygamy (which was and still is illegal) added a lot of fuel to the anti-Mormon fire. Modern day Mormons always try to minimize the polygamy issue, but to do so is dishonest and ignores the genuine history. Polygamy was central to the Mormon religion and caused much of their persecution and the near destruction of their church by the U.S. government. Had they ignored the government’s demands to end the practice the church would have been dismantled and the leaders taken away in federal shackles.
 
I watch it quite often. I like it. But I did take issue with the exmormon fellow on that program ‘Journey Home’. He also claimed mormons were not christians.
I understand why Mormons are upset with this claim and I’m sure I would be too if I were LDS. But I have to technically agree that Mormons are not Christian simply for the reason that their version of Heavenly Father and Christ are so different from all other Christian faiths. They use the same names for deity, but have very different meanings. Mormons believe that Christ is a created being, not eternal, and a spiritual brother of Lucifer. They also believe that Heavenly Father is a created being and was once a man on some other world. These distinctions are major disqualifiers for being Christian. In my view, Mormons are better classified as pseudo-Christian since they believe in Christ but also believe Christ to be something quite different compared to the rest of Christianity. Definitions are very important, and if one defines “God” and “Christ” so differently as to cause them to be very different gods, then one cannot be considered Christian in the same sense as the majority of the Christian world.
 
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but…I would NEVER vote for a Mormon. Theirs is one of the scariest religions on Earth, IMO, and ONLY IMO. Again, please hear me. I mean this in a GOOD way, okay?:crying: :bowdown: :rotfl: :grouphug: :kissme:
 
I understand why Mormons are upset with this claim and I’m sure I would be too if I were LDS. But I have to technically agree that Mormons are not Christian simply for the reason that their version of Heavenly Father and Christ are so different from all other Christian faiths. They use the same names for deity, but have very different meanings. Mormons believe that Christ is a created being, not eternal, and a spiritual brother of Lucifer. They also believe that Heavenly Father is a created being and was once a man on some other world. These distinctions are major disqualifiers for being Christian. In my view, Mormons are better classified as pseudo-Christian since they believe in Christ but also believe Christ to be something quite different compared to the rest of Christianity. Definitions are very important, and if one defines “God” and “Christ” so differently as to cause them to be very different gods, then one cannot be considered Christian in the same sense as the majority of the Christian world.
Thank you for your insight. This is what I have been trying to say, but haven’t had the words. I agree completely. 👍
 
That is an even dumber comment still. I thought that weatherman had made the dumbest possible comment in this thread. I didn’t think it was possible to up his score. But you have broken his record.
Oh, Zerinus, we can always count on you for great insults. In the last few weeks you have called me both “evil” and “dumb.” If you have any other zingers why don’t you just spout them all at once and be done with it so we can have a serious discussion?
Okay, let’s suppose you are right, and LDS discontinued polygamy purely as a result of pressure from the American Government. If so, why should they oppose its legalization now? Surely they should welcome it, because the restriction would then be removed. There would be no more pressure or obstruction. All would be legal and aboveboard. So why should they oppose its legalization now?
If you read my earlier posts you would have noticed that I said the only way the Mormon church would push for legalization of polygamy is if they controlled the presidency, congress, and the courts–in other words, the whole government. But if a Mormon were elected president and tried to legalize polygamy, without Mormon control of the other two branches of government, then it would be suicide for the LDS church to support polygamy.

And just for a little history reminder, here is some material on the subject from John Krakauer’s book, Under the Banner of Heaven:
The harder the Saints resisted federal control, however, the more Washington resolved to bring them to heel. In March 1887, Congress passed the harshest legislation yet directed at the Mormons, the Edmunds-Tucker Bill. Four months later John Taylor died, still in hiding, and a day after he was laid to rest, federal lawyers initiated a series of legal actions intended to bankrupt the Mormon Church. On May 19, 1890, they achieved their desired end when the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on these actions against the Saints, allowing church holdings to be seized by the government.

The whole of Mormondom was wobbling on the brink. With the death of Taylor in 1887, an eighty-two-year-old apostle named Wilford Woodruff had been installed as the fourth Mormon prophet. And he recognized, with great pain, that the Kingdom of God had no choice but to surrender to Washington’s demands. After taking to his bed on the evening of September 23, 1890, Woodruff reported, he “struggled all night with the Lord about what should be done with the existing circumstances of the church.”

In the morning he called together five trusted Mormon leaders and, “with broken spirit,” informed them that God had revealed to him the necessity of relinquishing “the practice of that principle for which the bretheren had been willing to lay down their lives.” To the shock and utter horror of the other men in the room, President Woodruff explained that “it was the will of the Lord” that the church stop sanctioning the doctrine of plural marriage.

On October 6, 1890, Woodruff’s momentous revelation was formalized in a brief document that became known as “the Woodruff Manifesto,” or simply “the Manifesto.” It read, in part,
Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention of submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise…

And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain form contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

WILFORD WOODRUFF
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
 
Chris-WA quoted Woodruff :
Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention of submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise…

And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain form contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

WILFORD WOODRUFF
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Most people that have replied to my original post agree that it is unlikely the LDS would ever resume polygamy given their desire to be more mainstream Protestant. I still feel that given the loosening of American morals it is only a matter of time in which our society ends up legalizing homosexual unions and polygamy. Although the LDS may deplore it now we can see by the Woodruff quote Chris-WA that this decisionwas only to keep Mormons within the law. Polygamous groups will come out of the woodwork and spread in areas they already exist such as Colorado, Arizona, and Utah and also into more populated states and back into Mormon Utah. What will the average Mormon feel about this? Will they end up condemning a practice they only gave up because it was “forbidden by the law of the land.” What if it has the approval of the law of the land? What will the average Mormon feel? Abhorrence? Longing? Forget what the official LDS response is. What about the common folk?

 
Chris-WA quoted Woodruff :
Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention of submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise…

And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain form contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

WILFORD WOODRUFF
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Most people that have replied to my original post agree that it is unlikely the LDS would ever resume polygamy given their desire to be more mainstream Protestant. I still feel that given the loosening of American morals it is only a matter of time in which our society ends up legalizing homosexual unions and polygamy. Although the LDS may deplore it now we can see by the Woodruff quote Chris-WA that this decisionwas only to keep Mormons within the law. Polygamous groups will come out of the woodwork and spread in areas they already exist such as Colorado, Arizona, and Utah and also into more populated states and back into Mormon Utah. What will the average Mormon feel about this? Will they end up condemning a practice they only gave up because it was “forbidden by the law of the land.” What if it has the approval of the law of the land? What will the average Mormon feel? Abhorrence? Longing? Forget what the official LDS response is. What about the common folk?

Most of today’s rank and file LDS think polygamy was a minor matter practiced by a few in the early days of the church and that it’s long over with. They are unware of just how central and important polygamy was to the church back in the mid and late 1800’s. Many are largely unaware of the fact that an LDS man today can be sealed to another LDS woman in the temple and have her for a plural wife in heaven, but that an LDS woman cannot do the same. Therefore I believe most LDS today would have a real hard time accepting polygamy in their lives. Also, women are much more independent now and LDS women would probably not want anything to do with polygamy.
 
I found the following link on Muslims and polygamy in Europe particularly interesting. In Europe it appears that polygamous unions are being allowed in the spirit of multiculturalism and respect for Muslims. It may well be that this is another avenue for polygamous practices to spread and eventually get legalized in the USA.
asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=8664&size=A
saludos,
cubalibre
 
majick275;2019138:
So true. It is really sad!!! I know a lot of good Mormons too. I pray for their converstion to Christianity. Catholicism would be even better, since they think they are very similar to the Catholics.
I did not say the quote that you mentioned on this post. It was another poster. You need to learn how to use the quote button so you can quote the actual poster. 👍
 
History shows that both sides had blood on their hands, something you won’t usually hear from present-day LDS. And there are limits to the freedoms associated with the practice of religion–even in the USA. .
From: lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/1831_1844/eom.htm
Although the Latter-day Saints migrated to western Missouri to build a city of peace and refuge, they encountered major hostility. Older settlers considered these newcomers a threat to their own patterns of living. Missourians complained that Mormons sought to influence slaves, that their “eastern” lifestyle was incompatible with the Missouri frontier, that they were an economic and political threat, that their friendship for the Indians threatened the region’s security, and that they held unusual religious beliefs. These charges indicate a significant cultural clash between the LDS immigrants and older settlers. Rapid immigration of Latter-day Saints into Jackson County intensified the tensions, resulting in confrontation.

After violence erupted in the summer of 1833, Governor Daniel Dunklin sent a local militia into the area to establish peace. Assuming that the militia would protect all settlers, Latter-day Saints surrendered their arms to this military force. But other Missourians were not disarmed, leaving Church members defenseless. In early November 1833, mobs drove more than a thousand Latter-day Saints from Jackson County, forcing them to abandon their homes and farms. Most of them escaped across the Missouri River to Clay County.
I see nothing there about polygamy. I am afraid that you are mistaken.
 
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but…I would NEVER vote for a Mormon. Theirs is one of the scariest religions on Earth, IMO, and ONLY IMO. Again, please hear me. I mean this in a GOOD way, okay?:crying: :bowdown: :rotfl: :grouphug: :kissme:
That is okay by me. However, I see that you are a fan of Paulo Freire. He was a great man. His book Pedagogy of the Oppressed was instrumental in reshaping how academics and teachers view their own careers and goals. I take my hat off :tiphat: to Paulo. However, I am a fan of critical revolutionary pedagogy as defined by Peter Mclaren.

That being said and don’t take this the wrong way but the same could be said of the catholic church by those who don’t know much about it. :hug1:
 
That being said and don’t take this the wrong way but the same could be said of the catholic church by those who don’t know much about it. :hug1:
It could be, but isn’t.

Even those who “don’t know much about it” (Catholicism/Christianity) aren’t afraid of electing a Catholic. But you put a Mormon up there atop a major political party vying for the White House, and I gawrahntee you, there will be lots of talk about his Mormonism. The only way a Mormon could be elected to the White House is if he basically denies all of the offensive tenets of his faith. This wasn’t required of JFK. Everyone in 1960 knew that there was nothing to be feared of Catholicism, except perhaps a quaint mistaken idea about papal loyalty among Protestants. To my knowledge, John Kerry’s Catholicism wasn’t a factor in 2004. But Mitt Romney’s Mormonism will be a MAJOR factor in 2008 if a miracle happens, and he gets the Repub nomination.
 
From: lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/1831_1844/eom.htm
Although the Latter-day Saints migrated to western Missouri to build a city of peace and refuge, they encountered major hostility. Older settlers considered these newcomers a threat to their own patterns of living. Missourians complained that Mormons sought to influence slaves, that their “eastern” lifestyle was incompatible with the Missouri frontier, that they were an economic and political threat, that their friendship for the Indians threatened the region’s security, and that they held unusual religious beliefs. These charges indicate a significant cultural clash between the LDS immigrants and older settlers. Rapid immigration of Latter-day Saints into Jackson County intensified the tensions, resulting in confrontation.

After violence erupted in the summer of 1833, Governor Daniel Dunklin sent a local militia into the area to establish peace. Assuming that the militia would protect all settlers, Latter-day Saints surrendered their arms to this military force. But other Missourians were not disarmed, leaving Church members defenseless. In early November 1833, mobs drove more than a thousand Latter-day Saints from Jackson County, forcing them to abandon their homes and farms. Most of them escaped across the Missouri River to Clay County.
I see nothing there about polygamy. I am afraid that you are mistaken.

I will agree with you that polygamy was not an issue in Missouri. Polygamy was not being publicly practiced by Joseph at that time–even though he was doing it secretly. It was later at Nauvoo that polygamy became a huge issue and was one of many reasons that inflamed the local populace against the Mormons.

Now as to the history you quoted above, in typical Mormon fashion it is completely one-sided. Yes, Missouri treated the LDS terribly as tensions escalated, and unjustly so, but let’s look at some of the things that led up those events. As chronicled again in Under the Banner of Heaven:In 1831, Joseph received a revelation in which God commanded the Saints to “assemble yourselves together to rejoice upon the land of Missouri, which is the land of your inheritance, which is now the land of your enemies.” When Missourians became aware of this commandment, they regarded it as an open declaration of war–an impression that seemed to be confirmed by an article published in a Mormon newspaper promising that the Saints would “literally tread upon the ashes of the wicked after they are destroyed from off the face of the earth.”

This kind of rhetoric convinced Missourians that the Mormons aimed to take over and rule Missouri, and trample them in the process. Keep in mind that Missouri was the western frontier full of tough, strong-willed characters, who weren’t going to be trampled or marginalized by anybody. They wrongly took matters into their own hands, and it was only a matter of time before Mormons responded with violence themselves after their appeals to the government yielded little help. In October of 1838 Joseph declared at Far West, Missouri:We are an injured people. From county to county we have been driven by unscrupulous mobs eager to seize the land we have cleared and improved with such love and toil. We have appealed to magistrates, judges, the Governor, and even the President of the United States, but there has been no redress for us…If the people will let us alone, we will preach the gospel in peace. But if they come on us to molest us, we will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was “the Alcoran {Qur’an} or the Sword.” So shall it eventually be with us–"Joseph Smith or the Sword!"And Joseph was right, for not long after Mormon war parties began raiding Gentile towns and plundering food, livestock, and valuables, burning around 50 non-Mormon homes in the process. This escalated the conflict and things only got worse from there until the Mormons eventually fled to Illinois in the spring of 1839. This is the part of history Mormons don’t talk about. In their eyes they are always the victims. Yes they were treated terribly, but they also had blood on their hands.
 
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