Mormon prophet

[lynnettejane]

Can someone please tell me why Joseph Smith, 8 years after his first vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ, tried to join the Methodist church. Especially in view of the fact that he had specifically been commanded to join any of the existing churches as they were an abomination?

 

[ParkerD]

Can someone please tell me why Joseph Smith, 8 years after his first vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ, tried to join the Methodist church. Especially in view of the fact that he had specifically been commanded to join any of the existing churches as they were an abomination?

LynnetteJane,

His name shows up on the roll of a Methodist Sunday school class, after he had already had the First Vision.

That doesn’t mean “joining” a church. It means “attending” a class.

It is OK to expand one’s knowledge of religious views others have, and that is but one example of that kind of thing. If everyone in the world thought they couldn’t attend another religious class than their own religion or their parents’ religion, then it would be a pretty narrow-viewed world. Expanding one’s knowledge of others’ sincerely held religious beliefs can be a healthy thing to do in this world where there is unfortunately so much mistrust and misunderstanding and non-peaceful communication.

 

[KathleenGee]

But Parker,

I would imagine such an experience would be so profound and earth shattering…what made him pick the Methodist Church?..the narrative seems to imply he is still searching.

 

[Samuel63]

Interesting. I have not bothered to go deeper into this “faith.”

The way I see it, this was individual revelation to one person and therefore there are no supporting witnesses (very covenient). There are no reports of miracles that have been corroborated by others. I view miracles as God’s stamp of approval on the event. This one is “missing the stamp.”

This is enough evidence for me to close the door on the Mormon faith.

 

[Defender1]

LynnetteJane,

His name shows up on the roll of a Methodist Sunday school class, after he had already had the First Vision.

That doesn’t mean “joining” a church. It means “attending” a class.

It is OK to expand one’s knowledge of religious views others have, and that is but one example of that kind of thing. If everyone in the world thought they couldn’t attend another religious class than their own religion or their parents’ religion, then it would be a pretty narrow-viewed world. Expanding one’s knowledge of others’ sincerely held religious beliefs can be a healthy thing to do in this world where there is unfortunately so much mistrust and misunderstanding and non-peaceful communication.

I saw LDS in your profile here . I have read that Joseph Smith taught some things that may or may not be taught today in your church . Joseph Smith taught polygamy, he taught that God had a number of sons and lived on the planet SOlO(spelling is probably way off) That Jesus and Satan were both brothers on this planet . Jesus said that salvation should be through his death on the cross and resurrection while Satan said we should be punished and tormented. They had a war and Jesus won,GOd sided with Jesus.The people who supported Jesus were the white people,The people that supported Satan were the black people (which is why black men were not able to be involved in the priesthood in the Mormon church until 1968) The People that took neither side were the south Americans and Asians. I am sorry but this seems to make no sense , how could he get Mormons back then to believe this ? And I am not up to date on your doctrine for the present day . So if you would ,can you tell me if you hold fast to those traditions Joseph Smith taught?

 

[Tony888]

I saw LDS in your profile here . I have read that Joseph Smith taught some things that may or may not be taught today in your church . Joseph Smith taught polygamy, he taught that God had a number of sons and lived on the planet SOlO(spelling is probably way off) That Jesus and Satan were both brothers on this planet . Jesus said that salvation should be through his death on the cross and resurrection while Satan said we should be punished and tormented. They had a war and Jesus won,GOd sided with Jesus.The people who supported Jesus were the white people,The people that supported Satan were the black people (which is why black men were not able to be involved in the priesthood in the Mormon church until 1968) The People that took neither side were the south Americans and Asians. I am sorry but this seems to make no sense , how could he get Mormons back then to believe this ? And I am not up to date on your doctrine for the present day . So if you would ,can you tell me if you hold fast to those traditions Joseph Smith taught?

Hi Defender, I’ve only been with the LDS for 1 yr but will give it a go.

I’m concerned you may be learning your LDS theology from cartoons rather than reliable sources. This is why what you posted doesn’t make any sense to you.

The LDS do not deny polygamy was taught by the church but it is not practiced now by the church.

Your story of God living on the planet SOIO is news to me as is any teaching that God the father lived on a specific planet. The LDS do teach we are all God’s spirit children and we were created by God before the Earth was created. Metaphorically, it may help one to envision everyone living on a planet but that is not official literal doctrine. LDS may use the term premortal spirit world, but it is not meant to define a physical planet.

The LDS do believe Christ and Satan were both created by God, and thus are spirit brothers. However, this was so long before the earth was created. The key difference between the plan of Jesus and of Satan was whether man would have free will. a couple links:

• How Satan became the devil
• The battle between Christ and Satan- Christ became our savior

Satan and the spirits that supported his plan were sent away from God and cast down from heaven. Since they were denied the right to receive mortal bodies, it would be impossible for them to represent any earthly race or skin color as you suggested. Also, there is no teaching that spirits had any race or color

There was a belief among most Christians of Joseph Smith’s era (and before) that blacks were cursed as the descendants of Cain. I expect many LDS shared this incorrect view broadly held by Protestants. Even Catholics were known to share this belief. I urge you to do some research on Christianity and slavery. Here is a link to get you started: Christian support of slavery: 5th century CE through abolition

None of this justifies racism expressed by any member of LDS or Christian denomination. I include only for educating you on context.

 

[Stavros]

Okay, so you’ve only been a member one year, so I can pretty much guarantee you that what you’ve learned is an amazingly sanitized version of LDS history. Let me address the issues you that you have countered.

Polygamy
Polygamy was not “taught” by the church. It was practiced by the church. You are taught that Jesus is God, but you practice polygamy by marring 51 wives (and having 56 children) as Brigham Young did. Other leaders had multiple wives as well, including founder Joseph Smith (33) and Heber C. Kimball (45). This practice was only stopped when the US government said that they would not annex Utah as a state unless the practice was stopped.

God’s planet
The name of the planet in question, where the Mormons have always taught that God resides, is one called Kolob. Next time you’re in church, go to your hymnal and turn to Hymn #284, “If You Could Hie To Kolob.” Feel free to bring that to your Elders Quorum president and ask about it. If he explains that Kolob is part of the translation of Abraham, ask him about the translation of the papyrus. Then read this web site about the truth about the translation. Long story short, once real Egyptologists evaluated Joseph’s sacred scroll, it came to be known that it was a very run-of-the-mill funeral scroll, nothing more. And nothing like Joseph Smith “translated” it to be, according to learned egyptologists.

Catholic Jesus vs LDS Jesus
You are missing a HUGE HUGE HUGE part of the difference between Jesus and Satan. LDS scripture teaches that God is one person, a perfect person, a glorified person, but a person. And then there’s all of his creation. That’s you, me, Satan, all angels, all demons, all souls. Everyone was created at the exact same time, and all of these spirit children were equal. Then God asks, who’s got a plan. Jesus says, I’ll say follow you and give You the glory, Father. Satan says, I’ll make them follow you, and I’ll get the glory. Wackiness ensues, and 1/3 of the angels get kicked out of heaven.

Catholic/Christian Jesus, however, is God. God is three different entities in one. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit (Holy Ghost). Three things. It’s like your brain and your fingers and your breath that you breathe in and out are all you, but all separate at the same time. Kind of. If you have children, they have your DNA, but they are not you. They are them. And you are you. And you are superior over them and created them and rule over them. But they are not you, nor are they equal to you.

The point is not “free agency”. The point of salvation is not to show that you can be a good Mormon and endure to the end. Jesus did not die on the cross because he wanted you to do food storage and journal and teach young women how to iron and scripture chase. Jesus died for you because He loves you. And all Jesus wants is to love you, and for you to love Him. If you love Him, you will have a delicate conscience and would prefer death to committing even the smallest deliberate venial (small) sin.

Skin color and spirituality in the pre-existence
Here’s some quotes from prominent LDS founders about race and spirituality from a book, and an edition, that we had in our home growing up (emphasis added):

“Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes.” LDS “Apostle” Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition

“THE NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, …but this inequality is not of man’s origin. IT IS THE LORD’S DOING, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the LACK OF SPIRITUAL VALIANCE OF THOSE CONCERNED IN THEIR FIRST ESTATE [the Mormon pre-existence].” LDS “Apostle” Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527 - 528, 1966 edition

“THE NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, …but this inequality is not of man’s origin. IT IS THE LORD’S DOING, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the LACK OF SPIRITUAL VALIANCE OF THOSE CONCERNED IN THEIR FIRST ESTATE [the Mormon pre-existence].” LDS “Apostle” Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527 - 528, 1966 edition

Sadly for new converts, you get stuck in the double-bind of the church when it comes to your history. If you don’t research the history outside of the approved church sources, you will receive a whitewashed, cherry-picked “faith-affirming” view of the history of the church, but will live in ignorance. If you do research primary sources away from the church, you will “feel” bad, which the church will tell you is the devil and that must prove that it is false. Except it’s not. So you’re either ignorant and lied to, or “feel” bad and must be influenced by Satan. There is no way to win this.

 

[KathleenGee]

Tony888,

Were you a Christian before you became a Mormon?

What attracted you to Mormonism?

 

[Tony888]

Stavos, you are wrong in most points

• The early church claimed revelation they were commanded to practice polygamy, hence it was taught
• You are completely wrong on Kolob (too many cartoons?). “Kolob” is the name for a star, not a planet. This star is used as a teaching metaphor in Abraham 3:3. to teach Abraham that there is a hierarchy in all things.
  There are many stars, and one star is “closest” to God. In a similar way, there are many intelligences, or moral agents, some greater than others. The greatest of these is God.
• Catholic Jesus vs LDS Jesus
  The LDS offer more background story but RCC and LDS both agree Christ died to grant us salvation. Naturally we differ on Godhead vs Trinity (3 seperate Beings united in purpose vs 3 persons united in one Being)
• Skin color
  Your Bruce McConkie quote is not doctrine. I urge you to look at the links I posted to see how broadly the Christian community has been bigoted against non whites or non europeans over the centuries. It’s a human weakness rather than scriptural

 

[lynnettejane]

OK lets gat back to topic. Joseph Smith claimed that in 1820ish he saw God and Jesus who told him not to join any church and named the methodists. Parker D you are waffling- why would he need to continue to go another sunday school or be in any way associated with any existing church when god expressly forbade it?? Why did his wife become presbytarian when she knew her husband had had so monumental an experience? Why would he need to try out another church and its teachings when god had already told him all other churches were an abomination, he didn’t need to try to expand his knowledge as god had already spoken on the issue.
BTW I am ex mormon, now catholic thank God.

 

[lynnettejane]

As a Mormon, I believed those points Stavros has made, and polygamy was taught and practiced as the highest form of marriage, which was restored by God with the LDS church. However, god relented and allowed this most sacred and exalting form of marriage to be abandonned when Utah was being denied entry into the USA. What rubbish, if god had restored this neither hell nor high water would have persuaded him to ditch it, it was purely politicaL. furthermore, exaltation to godhood depended upon it. By the way, if the Temples are part of god’s restoration why don’t you sacrifice as you have resurrected the Levitical priesthood which is defunct since Christ, and its main function was to sacrifice to God. As saint Paul pointed out, we are no longer under the law but have freedom in Christ our ONLY priest after the order of Melchisadec, the Levitical priesthood no longer being necessary due to Christ’s atoning sacrifice

 

[lax16]

• Skin color
  Your Bruce McConkie quote is not doctrine. I urge you to look at the links I posted to see how broadly the Christian community has been bigoted against non whites or non europeans over the centuries. It’s a human weakness rather than scriptural

What about Brigham Young? Prophet/President
BYU is named after him so I know he was important.

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race–that they should be the “servant of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second ‘Prophet’ of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.

 

[ParkerD]

But Parker,

I would imagine such an experience would be so profound and earth shattering…what made him pick the Methodist Church?..the narrative seems to imply he is still searching.

Kathleen,

I have no idea what “narrative” you are reading. (I guess I should point out that having done family history research using historical records, a “same name” may not mean the “same person”–so all that is being said is that the name Joseph Smith shows up on a Sunday school role for a Methodist assembly in the area where he lived.)

He lived in a religious community. Why not be interested in the people around him attending the Methodist church, and their study of the Bible?

The “fear factor” that people sometimes associate with God is just not part of what Joseph Smith experienced and became aware of about God.

God tells man to “learn from the world around you and learn from Me and My Son and the Holy Ghost”, so associating with Methodist church members would not be something Joseph Smith would feel “prohibited” or “fearful” about doing–it is called educating oneself, which is a good thing–not thinking that God is going to do all the teaching by His own revelation in every instance for what one needs to learn.

We are to learn from the world around us, and from the experiences of the people around us, and to look for the good in people.

 

[Stavros]

Stavos, you are wrong in most points

• The early church claimed revelation they were commanded to practice polygamy, hence it was taught
• You are completely wrong on Kolob (too many cartoons?). “Kolob” is the name for a star, not a planet. This star is used as a teaching metaphor in Abraham 3:3. to teach Abraham that there is a hierarchy in all things.
  There are many stars, and one star is “closest” to God. In a similar way, there are many intelligences, or moral agents, some greater than others. The greatest of these is God.
• Catholic Jesus vs LDS Jesus
  The LDS offer more background story but RCC and LDS both agree Christ died to grant us salvation. Naturally we differ on Godhead vs Trinity (3 seperate Beings united in purpose vs 3 persons united in one Being)
• Skin color
  Your Bruce McConkie quote is not doctrine. I urge you to look at the links I posted to see how broadly the Christian community has been bigoted against non whites or non europeans over the centuries. It’s a human weakness rather than scriptural

I will concede that Kolob may be a star, but as a child, I believe I was taught that Kolob was the nearest star to the planet. That doesn’t change the fact that the doctrine of Kolob was derived from the book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price, which was errantly “translated” from what was later discovered to be a common Egyptian funeral scroll depicting mummification. Even simple children’s books illustrate the commonality of what was depicted as common. And that’s splitting hairs - that’s like saying that the car parked in that spot is a Ford Taurus and not a Chevy Cavalier. Yes, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s parked in a handicapped spot with no tags and it’s wrong.

Also, the only cartoons I ever saw about Kolob were those taught in Primary. From the time I was 3-4 when my parents converted until the time I graduated as a Merry Miss. I was raised Mormon, and was taught these things for my entire childhood. To say that my learning is from “cartoons” is not mature, nor correct. Not all knowledge about the church that is not in line with prophet teaching comes from “The Godmakers”.

As far as “background story”, no background story is needed, and again, you are neglecting the point that LDS teaches that God is a glorified man and that we are of the same nature as Christ. We are not - God is God, Christ is God, Holy Spirit is God. The Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. There is no equal to Christ because Christ is God. According to Catholics, anyway.

As far as Bruce McConkie is concerned, he was a member of the First Council of the Seventy of the LDS Church from 1946 until his calling to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1972, where he remained until his death. Priesthood holders speak for God through the authority of the priesthood, and general authorities (“Brethren”) even more so. Unless of course they are wrong, in which case the were speaking as man. Did I mention the Mormon double bind yet?

Also, your version may not have the original verses of the Book of Mormon that teach that dark skin = marked sinful, and white skin = “delightsome”. Your version of the Book of Mormon probably does not say what my edition does, the one that I received when I was baptized in 1979: “And then shall they rejoice: for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people.” (2 Nephi 30:6). Yes, the Book of Mormon has had more than 3,913 changes, some of which, like this, were to “whitewash” the history.

 

[ParkerD]

To the general reader,

Since Stavros made a comment about “white and delightsome” as seeming to be a bad thing, one who studies the Bible as the word of God should know that “white” is not conveyed as a racial differentiation. One can read about the “armies which were in heaven” “clothed in fine linen, white and clean” (Revelation 19:14).

One can read about “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;” (Isaiah 1:18)

One may also take note that the Book of Mormon prophets loved the words of Isaiah, whose writings they had with them and felt blessed to have those wonderful prophetic writings which testify so eloquently of the Messiah, the Anointed One, the Savior and Redeemer and Rock of Israel.

It is an unfortunate misunderstanding of the Bible if anyone takes the word “white” and makes it into something derogatory and offensive to anyone, since the atonement of Jesus Christ is all about receiving the wonderful blessing of being healed and cleansed from all our sins, and being cleansed ties to the idea of being “pure” which ties to the words of Isaiah, “white as snow”.

A continuing wish of peace to all readers.

 

[lynnettejane]

Parker D you deflect all the time from the issue, playing with words, it is such a typical mormon tactic. God told JS to have nothing to do with any of the existing churches, but JS went to a methodist church it is a matter of record. He was also asked to leave or confess his former charlatan ways such as trying to find treasure by money digging - he chose to leave,also a matter of record. He had been a con man for years, but could face a methodistcongregation and confess his wrong doing. Mormonism stands or falls with him, he was not a prophet

 

[Jim_Dandy]

It is an unfortunate misunderstanding of the Bible if anyone takes the word “white” and makes it into something derogatory and offensive to anyone, since the atonement of Jesus Christ is all about receiving the wonderful blessing of being healed and cleansed from all our sins, and being cleansed ties to the idea of being “pure” which ties to the words of Isaiah, “white as snow”.

The word “white” clearly refers to skin color in 2 Nephi 5:21 -

“And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceeding [sic] fair and delightsome, that they might be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. 22. And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they reprent of their iniquities.”

Black skin was a curse; white skin was “delightsome.” God cursed them by turning them into “loathsome” black people.

Reference: Book of Mormon published 1950

 

[ParkerD]

Parker D … God told JS to have nothing to do with any of the existing churches, but JS went to a methodist church it is a matter of record…

Lynette Jane,

I hope you have had a good day.

Here is the quotation you seem to think said “have nothing to do with”:

"I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;"

“Join” in the use that would be understood within Protestant churches of the 1820’s in the United States, would have to do with “membership in”, rather than “attend”.

Words ought to be understood as precisely as possible, rather than jump to erroneous conclusions.

 

[lynnettejane]

Parker D, what rubbish, god told him to have nothing to do with other churches because they draw near to me with their lips but their hearts are far from me, which account of the first vision are you quoting because as I am sure you know there are several. The established church was supposed to be apostate, so it can be inferred that god had done with them, and was going to “restore” the original through JS. There was absolutely no reason for him to attend a methodist sunday school, what could he learn from there if all other churches were false

 

[ParkerD]

…There was absolutely no reason for him to attend a methodist sunday school, what could he learn from there if all other churches were false

Lynnette Jane,

There was good reason for him to attend a Methodist Sunday school class, if they were reading and studying the Bible in such a class. Maybe he thought he could add to the conversation they were having about the Bible. But he would be “with people”, and he was a “people person”, although he was known to also be a meditative, contemplative kind of person in his youth also. So he had an introspective side, and a gregarious side of his personality. There is nothing wrong with that.

God did not tell him to stop studying the Bible, nor to stop enjoying the company of people around him, nor to think of everyone as a “bad person” because the true church was not on the earth.

It seems to me, and perhaps others, to be a wrong idea to take words that had a precise meaning and generalize a different, incorrectly derived meaning and especially to then take offense from the incorrect meaning so derived.