Mormon Religion

[twopekinguys]

Well, I don’t see a commonality between heresy, procuring an abortion, dropping the Host on the floor, and taking a swing at a Bishop, either, but Catholics who do any of these are excommunicated at the instant they do any of these.

…and you do NOT excommunicate murderers–unless the victim of the murderer is the Pope, a Bishop or an unborn child.

(shrug)

…and you are forgetting; Hardy didn’t pose. The men who did were disciplined, but NOT excommunicated. I guess the difference is between being a pimp and being a prostitute; prostitutes are sometimes viewed with sympathy–a pimp never is.

Wrong.

Dropping the Host/Eucharist is not a reason for excommunication. Neither is taking a swing at a Bishop. Your comment about the Pope, or Bishop is not only false, but way out of line.

Where are Earth do you come up with these things? Now who is telling who what they believe?

Diania, you yourself said they were called into a hearing, but no one knows what the discipline was, if any. But yet you are saying they were disciplined, but not excommunicated.

Either you know for sure, or you don’t. Either way, stick with one side.

So what if Hardy didn’t pose. I don’t think it is a requirement for the publisher of any calendar or magazine to pose. NOt everyone is meant to be on that side of the camera lens.

You have NO idea how this was handled with the individual models. Neither do I…and none of us ever will. Many of them were called to disciplinary hearings. What happened there is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS. However, being called to such a hearing is by no means getting off ‘scott free,’ and your assumption than anything less than excommunication IS ‘getting away’ with something is erronious.

 

[Stephen168]

I’m not attempting to teach it, Stephen.

…unless you didn’t know about it yourself?

In fact, do please educate me. I am very willing to learn something new.

Just in case you really want to understand, go to the wikipedia page on Latae sententiae. There is something common in all the things which will cause a person to incur excommunication latae sententiae. I believe a Catholic could find it and a Mormon might never find it.

Well, I don’t see a commonality between heresy, procuring an abortion, dropping the Host on the floor, and taking a swing at a Bishop, either, but Catholics who do any of these are excommunicated at the instant they do any of these.

…and you do NOT excommunicate murderers–unless the victim of the murderer is the Pope, a Bishop or an unborn child. (shrug)

No, you don’t really want to understand. You prefer to glow in your ignorance.

 

[aspirant]

Catholics who do any of these are excommunicated at the instant they do any of these.

Only in peculiar circumstances. The person must, for example, already know both the relevant canon law and its consequence. The person must be at least 16 years old and not lack the use of reason. The law must be deliberately violated, the person not coerced by grave fear, the person not acting in legitimate self-defense or defense of another, etc. It’s difficult to incur this kind of penalty, and impossible to incur it without knowing in advance it’s going to happen. One must, so to speak, be very committed incurring the penalty in order to incur the penalty.

 

[aspirant]

Catholics don’t excommunicate murderers, either, while they DO excommunicate people who drop the Host on the floor.

No, people who drop the Host by accident are not excommunicated. Only a person who deliberately desecrates the Host could be excommunicated, provided all the other necessary circumstances apply.

 

[Stephen168]

Plenty of mormons do not wear their garments, or dress immodestly, and are not excommunicated.

It is not “pharisitic” to ask which commandment has been broken.

You know, when mormons are excommunicated for adultery or murder, these are serious sins. Is what Hardy & Co. did at this level?

I’m not seeing the commonality between posing with a shirt off and sleeping with the neighbor’s spouse. Or murder.

Very good point. If you are wrong I’m sure a Mormon would be able to defend the Mormon Church’s actions. Let’s see:

Well, I don’t see a commonality between heresy, procuring an abortion, dropping the Host on the floor, and taking a swing at a Bishop, either, but Catholics who do any of these are excommunicated at the instant they do any of these.

…and you do NOT excommunicate murderers–unless the victim of the murderer is the Pope, a Bishop or an unborn child.

(shrug)

nothing but anti-catholic ignorance, so far.

…and you are forgetting; Hardy didn’t pose. The men who did were disciplined, but NOT excommunicated. I guess the difference is between being a pimp and being a prostitute; prostitutes are sometimes viewed with sympathy–a pimp never is.

So the Mormon Church saw the missionaries as prostitutes and Hardy as a pimp? I guess that explains it. Ofcourse I’m not sure that really answers your questions: Is posing with a shirt off equal to sleeping with the neighbor’s spouse or murder? Is what Hardy & Co. did equal to sleeping with the neighbor’s spouse or murder?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, I don’t see a commonality between heresy, procuring an abortion, dropping the Host on the floor, and taking a swing at a Bishop, either, but Catholics who do any of these are excommunicated at the instant they do any of these.

…and you do NOT excommunicate murderers–unless the victim of the murderer is the Pope, a Bishop or an unborn child.

(shrug)

yes, Stephen168 already challenged you to answer this. Catholics know the commonality.

So, what is the commonality for a mormon. why get excommunicated for making a calendar?

…and you are forgetting; Hardy didn’t pose. The men who did were disciplined, but NOT excommunicated. I guess the difference is between being a pimp and being a prostitute; prostitutes are sometimes viewed with sympathy–a pimp never is.

Over the top analogy there.

Free will, remember? Those young men could say no, and Hardy has no calendar. Or, do you think Hardy had coerced those young men in the same evil ways a pimp coerces women?

 

[Catholic_to_LDS]

ok… I just have to say a few things. “Big Love” is a good show. Being LDS, I often laugh at the thing that are soooooo very wrong!!! I have never been interigated by a bishop. I have been in and am in a very difficult position of not being able to pay our tithing. I went to my bishop and recieved cousel. We give as much as we can, then make up the rest in service to the ward. This could be helping clean the church building, helping with ESL classes, to helping other member who need help (taking to dr apt’s, picking up their food orders when we pick up ours, or other small tasks). I have never been denied entrance to the temple because I can not pay a full thithing.

People are correct that we don’t practice plural marriage. There are many reasons for this and this could open a huge can of worms if we sit and explain every reason. We just don’t any more.

As far as home teaching…a pair of men (no they don’t have to be ablt to attend the temple) are assigned to a family. They are to share a message with the family from the Presidency of the church. They are to idealy relate the message in a way that relates to the family. They are also to see if the family is need of anything. If you think about your Priest, you know that he is only one person and often depends on lay members to get info about members of the parish. So, our bishop is only one person. By having home teachers, he can make sure that the needs of the members are meet.
An example of this would be if a family hadn’t been in church for awhile, the home teachers would call and make an appointment to come over. They would see if there was anything wrong. Maybe a pregnant mom is on bedrest and they have many other small children. The father may not be able to attend church. The home teachers would then be able to get the word out that the family was in need of help. The bishop could let the Relief Society (women’s group) know and they could orgnize child care, meals, house cleaning, rides for the children and the mom for dr apt’s. for example. The men could make sure that the family could still recieve the sacrement, that the lawn, house, and other things were taken care of. If the family didn’t have enough food, they could recieve food from the store house, money to help pay bills, and the fellowship and support needed at a time of need.
I wish the Catholic church did something like that when I was a member…my mom was a single mom(my dad left after an affair) and could bearly keep a roof over our heads. She went to the parish preist and was told that since she was divorced, they couldn’t do anything. The LDS church wouldn’t have done that…even nonmembers a can recieve aid.

If a family no longer wished to have visits and to leave the church they may. No one should “chase after them”. If they did it would be a cult. The bishop may counsel them on the the implications if they wish to have their names removed from the membership. That’s it.

Hope this helps.

 

[twopekinguys]

Snipped to here
I wish the Catholic church did something like that when I was a member…my mom was a single mom(my dad left after an affair) and could bearly keep a roof over our heads. She went to the parish preist and was told that since she was divorced, they couldn’t do anything. The LDS church wouldn’t have done that…even nonmembers a can recieve aid.

Hope this helps.

Different parishes offer different types of assistance to the community at large.

For example, our parish operates a food pantry through St. Vincent DePaul Society. There are no membership requirements to receive food from the pantry.

Other parishes in our area help with utility bills, rent payments, etc. Again, no membership requirement, only a need.

In many metropolitan areas, different parishes will assist with different needs, instead of every parish offering the same service.

Have you ever heard of Catholic Charities? It happens to be, if not The largest private network of social service organizations in the United States works to support families, reduce poverty, and build communities.

While the particular parish you belonged to at the time may not have been able to provide the assistance you were looking for, I think you may have their reasoning wrong. Maybe they didn’t offer, or couldn’t offer the assistance you were looking for at that time.

While divorce is wrong, it doesn’t stop people from receiving the sacraments or assistance. It only causes a problem when a divorced individual remarries. Even then, it does not preclude receiving assistance in a humanitarian form.

Also, you have heard of all the Catholic hospitals around the world right? Literally millions of dollars of free medical care is provided yearly to individuals who cannot pay, regardless of religous affiliation.

Hope this helps.

 

[Catholic_to_LDS]

I have heard of Catholic Charities…I said that I wished that they had something like that when my mom needed. I am glad that things have changed. As late as 1988, my mom sought assistance from her parish. She even begged…yes begged a priest for help. I was there and he wouldn’t help because my father had divorced her. I was attending Catholic school and she couldn’t afford the last tuition payment. I was forced in frount of my class mates to clean out my desk, retrive my belongings, and leave at once. My mom had been current until then.
As an adult, I don’t think that the Catholic church in a whole is like that. I have meet some of the most wonderful Sister who work with the poor. I am glad that things have changed. I hope that no other person/child would ever have an expeirence like mine.

Thankyou for the update.

 

[twopekinguys]

I have heard of Catholic Charities…I said that I wished that they had something like that when my mom needed. I am glad that things have changed. As late as 1988, my mom sought assistance from her parish. She even begged…yes begged a priest for help. I was there and he wouldn’t help because my father had divorced her. I was attending Catholic school and she couldn’t afford the last tuition payment. I was forced in frount of my class mates to clean out my desk, retrive my belongings, and leave at once. My mom had been current until then.
As an adult, I don’t think that the Catholic church in a whole is like that. I have meet some of the most wonderful Sister who work with the poor. I am glad that things have changed. I hope that no other person/child would ever have an expeirence like mine.

Thankyou for the update.

Catholic Charities in the USA has been around since 1910.

Tuition is something different than helping people with basic needs. Lets not confuse the two.

 

[why_me]

Different parishes offer different types of assistance to the community at large.

For example, our parish operates a food pantry through St. Vincent DePaul Society. There are no membership requirements to receive food from the pantry.

Other parishes in our area help with utility bills, rent payments, etc. Again, no membership requirement, only a need.

In many metropolitan areas, different parishes will assist with different needs, instead of every parish offering the same service.

Have you ever heard of Catholic Charities? It happens to be, if not The largest private network of social service organizations in the United States works to support families, reduce poverty, and build communities.

While the particular parish you belonged to at the time may not have been able to provide the assistance you were looking for, I think you may have their reasoning wrong. Maybe they didn’t offer, or couldn’t offer the assistance you were looking for at that time.

While divorce is wrong, it doesn’t stop people from receiving the sacraments or assistance. It only causes a problem when a divorced individual remarries. Even then, it does not preclude receiving assistance in a humanitarian form.

Also, you have heard of all the Catholic hospitals around the world right? Literally millions of dollars of free medical care is provided yearly to individuals who cannot pay, regardless of religous affiliation.

Hope this helps.

Much depends on where in the world one lives. Not all catholic parishes can afford to help or serve the poor. It takes money and infrastructure. Also, catholic hopitals do charge for their services and they would rather have a paying customer than a non paying customer. I don’t think that a catholic hospital would consider giving free care to a middle class person who may lack the resources to pay. In fact, certain catholic hospitals and nursing homes can be quite expensive.

In the past a divorced and remarried women was not in a very good position in the catholic church. My catholic aunt was divorced and she did not feel that welcomed in the catholic church. But this was years ago.

 

[why_me]

Catholic Charities in the USA has been around since 1910.

Tuition is something different than helping people with basic needs. Lets not confuse the two.

Catholic charities have done a wonderful job. The catholic worker movement is great in helping the poor in various communities. However the lds have a great program of help. In utah there are church run supermarkets where if one has a bishop’s order form, one can food and clothes from the store. Plus, many wards have employment representatives where members are helped in finding jobs. But not all lds wards have such services on offer. It also depends on location.

Sadly regardless of the help catholic charities and the lds church gives, the poor are getting poorer and parts the middle class are suffering economically.

 

[aspirant]

I have heard of Catholic Charities…I said that I wished that they had something like that when my mom needed. I am glad that things have changed… Thankyou for the update.

Forgive me, but I find it extremely difficult to believe the events you described happened more than 100 years ago.

 

[Stephen168]

…my mom was a single mom(my dad left after an affair) and could bearly keep a roof over our heads. She went to the parish preist and was told that since she was divorced, they couldn’t do anything.

My Dad ran away from home and left my Mom with five children; the oldest being eight (me). We always had a roof over our head and my Mom never expected the Catholic Church to support us. The Catholic community help as best they could and my Mom coached Pee Wee league and was a Den Mother (she helped give back). We were always welcome at Church and we received the sacraments.

…The LDS church wouldn’t have done that…even nonmembers a can recieve aid.

Are you saying the Mormon Church gave your Mom her basis needs and paid your Catholic School tuition?

 

[Xavierlives]

Are you saying the Mormon Church gave your Mom her basis needs and paid your Catholic School tuition?

 

[Stephen168]

I don’t think that a catholic hospital would consider giving free care to **a middle class person **who may lack the resources to pay. ?QUOTE] What?

In the past a divorced and remarried women was not in a very good position in the catholic church. My catholic aunt was divorced and she did not feel that welcomed in the catholic church.

Sounds like a personal problem. My Mother never felt that way and still doesn’t.

 

[twopekinguys]

Sounds like a personal problem. My Mother never felt that way and still doesn’t.

Now you know why I have why me on ignore.

The only time I am unfortunate enough to see his posts is when someone quotes him.

 

[RebeccaJ]

If they did it would be a cult.

If? They do…cult…bingo.

 

[dianaiad]

No, you don’t really want to understand. You prefer to glow in your ignorance.

Stephen, I think that this entire thing can be demonstrated by the fact that you are using Wikipedia for your information, and I went to the 1983 Code of Canon Law.

 

[dianaiad]

Only in peculiar circumstances. The person must, for example, already know both the relevant canon law and its consequence. The person must be at least 16 years old and not lack the use of reason.

OK…so? Are you claiming that no Catholic anywhere is aware of this? I find it difficult to believe that the church would keep this a great secret.

By the way, you might be correct, at that. It wasn’t that long ago that the church excommunicated an entire family, including the nine year old involved, for procuring an abortion for her after she was raped by a relative. Her not being 16 didn’t seem to affect her own excommunication for this action.

The law must be deliberately violated, the person not coerced by grave fear, the person not acting in legitimate self-defense or defense of another, etc. It’s difficult to incur this kind of penalty, and impossible to incur it without knowing in advance it’s going to happen. One must, so to speak, be very committed incurring the penalty in order to incur the penalty.

While the above may well be true, so what? I am having a difficult time here understanding this mindset; it’s ok to do something that gets you excommunicated if you aren’t aware that it will get you excommunicated?

On one hand, you seem to be saying that since Catholics don’t KNOW about this provision of canon law, that they aren’t excommunicated, so that’s all right. I don’t know about you, but that opens a whole 'nuther can of worms. Why DON’T y’all know? Isn’t this stuff in the catechism? I mean after all, if it is important enough to get you EX’d, don’t you think you should be TOLD about it?

But if you aren’t told–WHY aren’t you told? Is it to protect you from this sort of excommunication? If so, why is it a part of canon law in the first place? Is it a sort of secret, kept from the hoi paloi…but that’s not it, because it’s right there in canon law. It’s no secret–anybody can find it.

I mean, really.

Why ISN’T every single Catholic who has ever gone through catechism and confirmation aware of this? It seems like a pretty important matter to me.