Mormon Religion

[twopekinguys]

Rebecca, I have an apology to make. It is true that most of the people who have been arguing with me were caught blindsided by the idea that someone who gets an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication. It is also true that their ignorance has been hotly defended by these people by claiming that it’s not important…that everything they need to know is found in the catechism, and that is doesn’t MATTER that the church doesn’t teach this to everybody. It is very true that I have been roundly insulted up one side and down the other for wondering WHY the church doesn’t teach something this important to everybody, and not ONE person has come to me and said “well, actually, it does. If Catholics don’t know about it it’s because they aren’t paying attention.” EVERY defense (especially from you, I might add) has been ‘they didn’t teach me because it isn’t important,’ or ‘it’s too difficult to understand if you aren’t a canon lawyer,’ or, more specifically, that I’m a bigoted anti-Catholic and an ignorant arrogant twit for even wondering.

All the above is true…but being rampantly curious, and having REAL problems understanding why the church would impose its most serious penalty/remedy on abortion and not TELL anybody about it, I went looking.

And I found this, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three, Life in Christ
Section two/ The Ten Commandments

Chapter Two “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”

Article 5, paragraph 2272:*** Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” ***

I feel a LOT better about this, y’know? I was wrong. The church DOES teach this, and rather clearly, in the Catechism. You know, the catechism which is written for all CAtholics to read and understand without degrees in canon law. In fact, it actually quotes the statement FROM the code of canon law, verbatim. I guess that means that the church considers her members to have enough brains to understand the sentence without five years of study and a doctoral degree.

It’s right there, in a section that is fairly comprehensive about a topic that the church cares a great deal about. You, who were a convert to the church, had to read the catechism and take classes in it even more than those who were born in the faith.

So the question is…why didn’t you know?

And rather than go look it up in the catechism to see if the church DOES teach this, did you defend your own ignorance as if it were something positive, and approved by the church?

Now me, I feel a lot better about the church knowing that they do clearly teach this in the catechism; it’s a very good thing.

Praise Jesus

 

[Stephen168]

Rebecca, I have an apology to make. It is true that most of the people who have been arguing with me were caught blindsided by the idea that someone who gets an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication. It is also true that their ignorance has been hotly defended by these people by claiming that it’s not important…that everything they need to know is found in the catechism, and that is doesn’t MATTER that the church doesn’t teach this to everybody. It is very true that I have been roundly insulted up one side and down the other for wondering WHY the church doesn’t teach something this important to everybody, and not ONE person has come to me and said “well, actually, it does. If Catholics don’t know about it it’s because they aren’t paying attention.” EVERY defense (especially from you, I might add) has been ‘they didn’t teach me because it isn’t important,’ or ‘it’s too difficult to understand if you aren’t a canon lawyer,’ or, more specifically, that I’m a bigoted anti-Catholic and an ignorant arrogant twit for even wondering.

All the above is true…but being rampantly curious, and having REAL problems understanding why the church would impose its most serious penalty/remedy on abortion and not TELL anybody about it, I went looking.

And I found this, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three, Life in Christ
Section two/ The Ten Commandments

Chapter Two “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”

Article 5, paragraph 2272:*** Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” ***

I feel a LOT better about this, y’know? I was wrong. The church DOES teach this, and rather clearly, in the Catechism. You know, the catechism which is written for all CAtholics to read and understand without degrees in canon law. In fact, it actually quotes the statement FROM the code of canon law, verbatim. I guess that means that the church considers her members to have enough brains to understand the sentence without five years of study and a doctoral degree.

It’s right there, in a section that is fairly comprehensive about a topic that the church cares a great deal about. You, who were a convert to the church, had to read the catechism and take classes in it even more than those who were born in the faith.

So the question is…why didn’t you know?

And rather than go look it up in the catechism to see if the church DOES teach this, did you defend your own ignorance as if it were something positive, and approved by the church?

Now me, I feel a lot better about the church knowing that they do clearly teach this in the catechism; it’s a very good thing.

The penalty for abortion is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church,

WOW

 

[aspirant]

There is a difference between “having words and having understanding”.

You yourself have misunderstood the words many times, in more than one way, so it’s pretty darn obvious to everyone else by now that they can be understood differently. Heck, you even provide a bad definition of excommunication in this very post. You’ve illustrated Rebecca’s point perfectly.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Chapter Two “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”

Article 5, paragraph 2272:*** Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” ***

I feel a LOT better about this, y’know? I was wrong. The church DOES teach this, and rather clearly, in the Catechism. You know, the catechism which is written for all CAtholics to read and understand without degrees in canon law. In fact, it actually quotes the statement FROM the code of canon law, verbatim. I guess that means that the church considers her members to have enough brains to understand the sentence without five years of study and a doctoral degree.

It’s right there, in a section that is fairly comprehensive about a topic that the church cares a great deal about. You, who were a convert to the church, had to read the catechism and take classes in it even more than those who were born in the faith.

OH MY FREAKING HECK! I believe several people have pointed this exact thing out to you.

So the question is…why didn’t you know?

I WAS NOT CONCERNED ABOUT SOMETHING THAT I DON’T HAVE A CONCERN ABOUT. HELLO! I would NEVER consider an abortion! Why do you think I would look up something that I have no curiosity about, or concern, or even consideration?

You seem to think I was baptized a Catholic by virtue of understanding rules and the ecclesiastical penalties for breaking them. I DID NOT. I am Catholic because this is WHERE GOD LED ME.

And rather than go look it up in the catechism to see if the church DOES teach this, did you defend your own ignorance as if it were something positive, and approved by the church?

Now me, I feel a lot better about the church knowing that they do clearly teach this in the catechism; it’s a very good thing.

Which has been said to you several times!!

:banghead:

 

[aspirant]

ignorance has been hotly defended by these people by claiming that it’s not important.

I have yet to see anyone claim it’s not important.

And I found this, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church…

It’s amazing it took you so long, given that you’ve actually been told about it a number of times.

So the question is…why didn’t you know?

Some of us do. But not Catholic receives the same kind of education, nor is every Catholic receiving the same level of education, etc. Not, of course, that I really expect you to actually listen to me this time, as opposed to the other times I’ve discussed this.

 

[zaffiroborant]

OH MY FREAKING HECK! I believe several people have pointed this exact thing out to you.

I WAS NOT CONCERNED ABOUT SOMETHING THAT I DON’T HAVE A CONCERN ABOUT. HELLO! I would NEVER consider an abortion! Why do you think I would look up something that I have no curiosity about, or concern, or even consideration?

You seem to think I was baptized a Catholic by virtue of understanding rules and the ecclesiastical penalties for breaking them. I DID NOT. I am Catholic because this is WHERE GOD LED ME.

Which has been said to you several times!!

:banghead:

Like by Stephen168 in posts 518, 530 and 531 in this thread:shrug:

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t imagine that most people have any intention of committing murder, either, Rebecca. However, it’s still a good idea that the penalty for it is known so that those few who DO plan on it might think again. You are not, after all, the only Catholic on the planet…and as has been proven many times, the rate of abortion for Catholics hovers around 24% of all pregnancies. In other words, YOU might never plan on getting an abortion, but if you were standing in a room full of newly pregnant Catholic women, the odds are that one in four of them will get an abortion. Don’t you think that telling THEM about this consequence might prevent a few of those?

Does it really only count what you might be planning to do?

You asked me, in particular, why not knowing the penalty for abortion did not bother me. Now you want to apply what I said about myself to all 1.5 billion Catholics on the planet? This is your idea, not mine.

Go ahead, Rebecca. Please tell me how these words can POSSIBLY be understood differently than I have done:

Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Pretty bald, that. No room for ambiguity, no wiggle room…nothing.

How many times do you want an explanation?

Just BEFORE That statement, the code of canon law deals with murder, kidnapping, mutilation, 'gravely wound[ing] by referring those folks to can. 1336, which prescribes penalties that apply mostly to the clergy, which do not include excommunication.

Really, Rebecca…is there some Catholic only dictionary that redefines all the words in that statement so that they mean something very different from what the rest of us see?

A: indefinate article indicating one object or thing.
person: a human being.
who: relative pronoun, refers to “person.’
procures: verb, cause the effort that brings about the desired result
a: indefinite article indicating one object or thing
completed: adjective; come or bring to a finish or end
abortion: noun: termination of pregnancy
incurs: verb: acquiring or coming into something (usually undesirable)
a: indefinite article indicating one object or thing
latae sententiae: adjective phrase, literally meaning 'given (already passed) sentence”,
excommunication: noun; religious censure used to deprive or suspend membership in a religious community.

Yes, you are understanding the words JUST FINE. You are not, however, UNDERSTANDING.

So…you might not need to know this. I imagine that the women who are facing this decision and do not know this might WANT to…and the church might want to tell them. After all, their instruction in moral law and doctrine doesn’t seem to be doing the job, and there must be SOME reason that the church felt impelled to put this into canon law. Not making very certain that everybody who might face this situation KNOWS about it seems counterproductive.

Diana, perhaps it would help you to know that when Catholics face important decisions, they seek the advise of a priest. We are a very living Church, where what is written is understood to have other factors applied to it. Reading rules is not the full experience for any Catholic.

 

[dianaiad]

OH MY FREAKING HECK! I believe several people have pointed this exact thing out to you.

No, Rebecca, as a matter of fact, nobody has. Not one person. Everybody has been too busy defending the idea that it was NOT in the catechism, and I am the only person (as far as I know…) that actually went to the Catechism to look.

You sure didn’t.

I WAS NOT CONCERNED ABOUT SOMETHING THAT I DON’T HAVE A CONCERN ABOUT. HELLO! I would NEVER consider an abortion! Why do you think I would look up something that I have no curiosity about, or concern, or even consideration?

Oh, I dunno…perhaps because the conversation wasn’t about you, specifically, but about whether Catholics in general had this information or that it would concern any of them? It’s not all about you, Rebecca. It IS about the one in four pregnant Catholics who actually get an abortion…and frankly, it’s also about actually knowing important stuff about what your own faith teaches and considers important. The world does not revolve around whether Rebecca paid attention in catechism class…and the point of the conversation does not depend upon whether Rebecca knows, or did not know, about this.

Your attitude has been one of 'well, I didn’t get taught this, and I don’t need to be taught this, so it’s not important that anybody get taught this." It’s an odd viewpoint to take.

You seem to think I was baptized a Catholic by virtue of understanding rules and the ecclesiastical penalties for breaking them. I DID NOT. I am Catholic because this is WHERE GOD LED ME.

Which has been said to you several times!!

:banghead:

Feel free to find a quote from someone who actually did that, Rebecca. Good luck with that, though, because guess what? Nobody has said that the catechism mentions this. In fact, what has been ‘said to [me] several times’ is that the catechism does NOT have this, and that’s a good thing because canon law is less important than the catechism and it’s too complicated for the laity.

Rebecca, if God led you to Catholicism, then don’t you think you should honor that leading by learning about the place He led you? WHY have you been insulting, mocking and deriding me…and excusing your own ignorance about this by claiming that the church doesn’t teach…and doesn’t need to teach this to anybody because YOU don’t need it?

Please excuse me, but it seems to me that if your church teaches something, and you were led to it, then you NEED to know it…and you need to find out about it from the Catechism, not from me.

As for me, this issue was sticking; I had major problems with the idea that the church would impose such a consequence–and that it would not make certain that everybody knew it. It didn’t make ANY sense, and for the last weeks, all anybody has done here is to tell me why it is acceptable, right and proper that the church did NOT teach everybody about it. You did that. Those who DID know about it excused it by claiming that it was too complicated for the lay person to understand. NOT ONE PERSON went to look at the catechism, check it out, and say 'well, Diana, the church actually DOES teach this to everybody. It’s right there in the catechism." In fact, several of you specifically said that it was NOT in the catechism…including you, I believe.

I find it ironic that I am the only one who looked…and I am the only one who did. However, I am finding this more and more; I am learning about Catholicism in spite of you…and frankly, what I learn in SPITE of you is far more positive in regard to the church than what I have learned BECAUSE of you.

Amazing.

 

[dianaiad]

I have yet to see anyone claim it’s not important.

It’s amazing it took you so long, given that you’ve actually been told about it a number of times.

Some of us do. But not Catholic receives the same kind of education, nor is every Catholic receiving the same level of education, etc. Not, of course, that I really expect you to actually listen to me this time, as opposed to the other times I’ve discussed this.

Feel free to provide me a single quote where anybody has pointed out where this has been mentioned in the Catechism, Aspirant.

 

[dianaiad]

Like by Stephen168 in posts 518, 530 and 531 in this thread:shrug:

Stephen got put in my ignore list last week.

…and I don’t believe that he did this THIS time, either.

 

[Stephen168]

No, Rebecca, as a matter of fact, nobody has. Not one person. Everybody has been too busy defending the idea that it was NOT in the catechism, and I am the only person (as far as I know…) that actually went to the Catechism to look.

You sure didn’t.

Rebecca, if I told her three times you could have taken the time to tell once. Fourth times the charm!!

 

[Stephen168]

…and I don’t believe that he did this THIS time, either.

Another spot on assumption

 

[aspirant]

Feel free to provide me a single quote where anybody has pointed out where this has been mentioned in the Catechism, Aspirant.

This one’s been posted several times:

The penalty for abortion is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[RebeccaJ]

As I try to understand why someone who is trying to understand can not understand, a question comes to mind. How important are the Ten Commandments to the moral teaching of Mormonism?
The reason I ask is, it seems she assumes the Catholic Church would write a code of canon law which would supersede the Ten Commandments. I would also think if Mormonism was grounded in the Ten Commandments like the Catholic Church they could not change their teaching on abortion like they have. So I am wondering; in the total scheme (various sources) of Mormon moral teaching; how important are the Ten Commandments?

They are important to Mormons. They also believe God can and does allow, or even command, for them to be broken.

The difference to Catholic thought is that Catholics believe God is good because that is His nature. Mormons believe God’s nature is the same as human nature, and as such, can (and does) change His mind about what is good.

 

[Stephen168]

They are important to Mormons. They also believe God can and does allow, or even command, for them to be broken.

The difference to Catholic thought is that Catholics believe God is good because that is His nature. Mormons believe God’s nature is the same as human nature, and as such, can (and does) change His mind about what is good.

So the idea of the Church creating a doctrine or document which supersedes the Ten Commandments would make sense to a Mormon. Well that could explain what lead her astray in her assumption of what act which result in excommunication latae sententiae are.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No, Rebecca, as a matter of fact, nobody has. Not one person. Everybody has been too busy defending the idea that it was NOT in the catechism, and I am the only person (as far as I know…) that actually went to the Catechism to look.

You sure didn’t.

I saw other people telling you it is. I assumed you were reading these posts.

Oh, I dunno…perhaps because the conversation wasn’t about you, specifically, but about whether Catholics in general had this information or that it would concern any of them? It’s not all about you, Rebecca. It IS about the one in four pregnant Catholics who actually get an abortion…and frankly, it’s also about actually knowing important stuff about what your own faith teaches and considers important. The world does not revolve around whether Rebecca paid attention in catechism class…and the point of the conversation does not depend upon whether Rebecca knows, or did not know, about this.

You asked me directly, about my own experience. Maybe now you are realizing that not all Catholics experience Catholicism in the same way. That’s pretty awesome.

Your attitude has been one of 'well, I didn’t get taught this, and I don’t need to be taught this, so it’s not important that anybody get taught this." It’s an odd viewpoint to take.

About the Code of Canon Law. I have met very few Catholics who have read even a part of Canon Law. Unless they are clergy, or just very into ecclesiastical law for whatever reason.

It would be like me asking you why the mormon church doesn’t hand out a CHI to every mormon.

Feel free to find a quote from someone who actually did that, Rebecca. Good luck with that, though, because guess what? Nobody has said that the catechism mentions this. In fact, what has been ‘said to [me] several times’ is that the catechism does NOT have this, and that’s a good thing because canon law is less important than the catechism and it’s too complicated for the laity.

OK then, it has been said several times. And implied more than once from people who have asked you to prove the things you say. Maybe it wasn’t transparent enough for you, but it wasn’t clear to me you were having this problem.

Rebecca, if God led you to Catholicism, then don’t you think you should honor that leading by learning about the place He led you? WHY have you been insulting, mocking and deriding me…and excusing your own ignorance about this by claiming that the church doesn’t teach…and doesn’t need to teach this to anybody because YOU don’t need it?

Diana, ecclesiastical penalties are not doctrinal. I never said the Church doesn’t need to teach this to anyone because I don’t need it. That is your twisting of my words.

Please excuse me, but it seems to me that if your church teaches something, and you were led to it, then you NEED to know it…and you need to find out about it from the Catechism, not from me.

I have very real and personal experiences with this that occurred during my conversion. Not of the sort I am going to group share. It had nothing to do with being afraid of penalties, and everything to do with understanding the love of God for all human life, including the unborn.

If you think I converted from atheism to Catholicism because I feared ecclesiastical penalties, you’ve got it upside down. You have me thinking you stay mormon because you worry about excommunication.

I don’t know what it is about this penalty that has you so nuts over what I know and don’t know about ecclesiastical law.

As for me, this issue was sticking; I had major problems with the idea that the church would impose such a consequence–and that it would not make certain that everybody knew it. It didn’t make ANY sense, and for the last weeks, all anybody has done here is to tell me why it is acceptable, right and proper that the church did NOT teach everybody about it. You did that. Those who DID know about it excused it by claiming that it was too complicated for the lay person to understand. NOT ONE PERSON went to look at the catechism, check it out, and say 'well, Diana, the church actually DOES teach this to everybody. It’s right there in the catechism." In fact, several of you specifically said that it was NOT in the catechism…including you, I believe.

I find it ironic that I am the only one who looked…and I am the only one who did. However, I am finding this more and more; I am learning about Catholicism in spite of you…and frankly, what I learn in SPITE of you is far more positive in regard to the church than what I have learned BECAUSE of you.

Amazing.

Diana, you have approached with an assumption, one that you have kept asserting over and over. Several Catholics have asked you to back up your assumption. I am glad you finally decided to try that approach out and discover what it is Catholics believe and teach. If it means you have to do this in spite of me, I’m ok with that.

And perhaps you should realize something…Catholics do not spoon feed religion to people. It is better for you to come to truth by way of God’s guidance. If you have found understanding today, you can thank Him.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So the idea of the Church creating a doctrine or document which supersedes the Ten Commandments would make sense to a Mormon. Well that could explain what lead her astray in her assumption of what act which result in excommunication latae sententiae are.

Yes, it makes perfect sense to a LDS person.

 

[TheosisM]

Feel free to provide me a single quote where anybody has pointed out where this has been mentioned in the Catechism, Aspirant.

As others have already mentioned, Stephen did repeatedly post this, however I guess you did not see it because he’s on ignore.

 

[aspirant]

I guess you did not see it because he’s on ignore.

Something we could not guess.

 

[Stephen168]

Yes, it makes perfect sense to a LDS person.

Maybe someday she will discover on her own that the Catholic Church would never break the Ten Commandments, which hopefully would make it clear to her that the acts listed in Canon Law are not a list of the worst sins in Catholicism. But then we would all be accused of not tell her earlier.