Mormon statement on abortion

[BartBurk]

From the 1983 Handbook of General Instructions:

“The Church opposes abortion as one of the most revolting and sinful practices of this day. Members must not submit to, be a party to, or perform an abortion. The only exceptions are the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or health of the woman is in jeopardy or the pregnancy resulted from incest or rape. Even then, the woman should consider an abortion only after counseling with her husband and bishop or branch president, and receiving divine confirmation through prayer.”

More on the LDS Church and abortion:

religioustolerance.org/lds_abor.htm

 

[RAR]

From the 1983 Handbook of General Instructions:

“The Church opposes abortion as one of the most revolting and sinful practices of this day. Members must not submit to, be a party to, or perform an abortion. The only exceptions are the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or health of the woman is in jeopardy or the pregnancy resulted from incest or rape. Even then, the woman should consider an abortion only after counseling with her husband and bishop or branch president, and receiving divine confirmation through prayer.”

More on the LDS Church and abortion:

religioustolerance.org/lds_abor.htm

Thank you for clarification BartBurk. This is a strong statement from the LDS church.

I would add that those babies conceived as a result of incest and rape should also enjoy the same rights as babies conceived of other circumstances.

RAR

 

[Dauphin]

This definition actually allows for “mental health” to be a consideration. If a woman is “distressed”, she may kill her own child. What a bastion of morality!

 

[TOmNossor]

This definition actually allows for “mental health” to be a consideration. If a woman is “distressed”, she may kill her own child. What a bastion of morality!

Actually, this is not part of the statement or the churches position. In the cases of Rape/Incest, the mother’s mental health can be a consideration. That said, LDS believe that two way communication with God REALLY happens. So they take Rape/Incest pregnancies to God for His view.

Here is some more on the LDS (and Catholic) position and a link.

1. LDS are opposed to all abortions and do a better job than Catholics at not having abortions.
2. The best read of the LDS position is quite similar to the ancient Catholic position as opposed to the DEVELOPED Catholic position.
3. The reason of the LDS position is a huge emphasis upon agency and trusting God. This combined with no revelation on ensoulment. It is interesting that in the absence of revelation the prevailing Catholic view on ensoulment has changed over time.
4. I have also spoken with LDS social services and know of zero abortions and a handful of babies born to rape victims. If ensoulement has occurred abortion cannot happen and will not be performed according to LDS doctrine as I read it.
5. I personally am opposed to all abortion and would only approve of the abortions approved by the Catholic Church.
6. I believe the bioethics view espoused in the Catholic Church concerning ectopic pregnancies is excessively legalistic and in interest of providing a safer procedure (less likely to kill the mother and less likely to prevent future children) I would advocate chemical or physical action on the fetus rather than cutting out a section of the felopian tube and killing the fetus 100% of the time too.

For discussion of the above 6 points see this thread:
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=30457

If you want to ask about 1-6 please quote the relevant section from the thread I linked.
Charity, TOm

 

[BartBurk]

This definition actually allows for “mental health” to be a consideration. If a woman is “distressed”, she may kill her own child. What a bastion of morality!

From a practical standpoint, I would guess an active LDS woman is less likely to get an abortion than a Catholic woman. Based on the places where Catholics are in the majority versus where Mormons are in the majority, the Catholics seem more liberal. Compare the voting patterns in Rhode Island and Massachusetts to Utah and Idaho as regards abortion. The opinion of Latter-day Saints on abortion seem far more conservative than the opinion of Catholics. That is a scandal.

 

[Dauphin]

1. LDS are opposed to all abortions and do a better job than Catholics at not having abortions.

That’s obviously untrue. The Mormons are not opposed to abortion in the cases of rape and incest. No practicing and believing Catholic has an abortion. If a Catholic in good standing has an abortion, they are automatically excommunicated.

1. The best read of the LDS position is quite similar to the ancient Catholic position as opposed to the DEVELOPED Catholic position.

The Catholic position is unchanged. Every human being has a soul from the moment of conception, and it is not permissible to murder a human being. You may be referring to the positions of some church doctors, which are not dogmatic or authoritative.

1. The reason of the LDS position is a huge emphasis upon agency and trusting God. This combined with no revelation on ensoulment. It is interesting that in the absence of revelation the prevailing Catholic view on ensoulment has changed over time.

If God could be “trusted” to “inform” women of the right course, no woman would have an abortion under any circumstances. We don’t need to pray to God for him to confirm that abortion is wrong; He has already confirmed it through His Church.

1. I have also spoken with LDS social services and know of zero abortions and a handful of babies born to rape victims. If ensoulement has occurred abortion cannot happen and will not be performed according to LDS doctrine as I read it.

Personal experience is irrelevant. We’re discussing what the Mormon Church believes as outlined in the OP - a belief which contravenes essential human dignity.

1. I personally am opposed to all abortion and would only approve of the abortions approved by the Catholic Church.

No direct abortion is approved by the Catholic Church.

1. I believe the bioethics view espoused in the Catholic Church concerning ectopic pregnancies is excessively legalistic and in interest of providing a safer procedure (less likely to kill the mother and less likely to prevent future children) I would advocate chemical or physical action on the fetus rather than cutting out a section of the felopian tube and killing the fetus 100% of the time too.

The direct termination of the fetus is the murder of a human being. Period.

 

[majick275]

Tom the quote was right out of the handbook of instructions that Bishops use as guidance. how can you say it’s not part of the of the LDS church’s position?

 

[Dauphin]

From a practical standpoint, I would guess an active LDS woman is less likely to get an abortion than a Catholic woman. Based on the places where Catholics are in the majority versus where Mormons are in the majority, the Catholics seem more liberal. Compare the voting patterns in Rhode Island and Massachusetts to Utah and Idaho as regards abortion. The opinion of Latter-day Saints on abortion seem far more conservative than the opinion of Catholics. That is a scandal.

Yes, it is. It’s more of an indication of the level of true Catholic belief. Any believing Catholic is opposed to abortion.

 

[BartBurk]

Tom the quote was right out of the handbook of instructions that Bishops use as guidance. how can you say it’s not part of the of the LDS church’s position?

And the policy is of course applied inconsistently. Some Bishops are much more liberal on what “health of the mother” means than other Bishops. I know of at least one case where an abortion was allowed because it might harm the mental health of a young teenager. Other Bishops wouldn’t have been so liberal on the matter.

 

[majick275]

*“While we denounce it [abortion], we make allowance in such circumstances as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have serious defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But such instances are rare, and there is only a negligible probability of their occurring. In these circumstances those who face the question are asked to consult with their local ecclesiastical leaders and to pray in great earnestness, receiving a confirmation through prayer before proceeding.” *(Pres. Gordon B. Hinkley, The Ensign Nov.1998 pg.71 see also The First Presidencies General Handbook of Instructions pages 10-4 & 11-4)

looks like the official position

 

[majick275]

of course it has apparently “developed” from this :

“We have repeatedly affirmed the position of the church in unalterably opposing all abortions” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 189).

 

[majick275]

here is a good article on the LDS “position”:

sdnewsnotes.com/ed/articles/1999/1099rk.htm

 

[TOmNossor]

Dauphin,
If you follow my link you will find that the majority of your statements are well addressed.

That’s obviously untrue. The Mormons are not opposed to abortion in the cases of rape and incest. No practicing and believing Catholic has an abortion. If a Catholic in good standing has an abortion, they are automatically excommunicated.

Actually, LDS are opposed to abortion even in the cases of rape and incest. You are mistaken to suggest otherwise. That LDS believe God may for the health of the mother approve of abortion in the case of rape and incest does not mean that LDS are not always opposed to abortion. This should have been clear in my statement.
You are in fact correct a Catholic who has an abortion is not a Catholic. I should have been more specific. People who claim to be Catholic have abortions at a significantly higher rate than people who claim to be LDS.

The Catholic position is unchanged. Every human being has a soul from the moment of conception, and it is not permissible to murder a human being. You may be referring to the positions of some church doctors, which are not dogmatic or authoritative.

I have discovered zero evidence that any Catholic believed ensoulment occurred at conception >400 years ago. Do you have any evidence or do you just dogmatically claim this?
Catholics once referred to “Fetus animus” and “Fetus inanimus” to distinguish between the two. I am fairly certain Popes did this too (follow the link).
The only specific statements I have found on ensoulment >200-300 years ago specifically state that the fetus was not ensouled until weeks after conception. (follow the link).
The “penalty” for abortion was distinctly different than the penalty for murder and was generally considered to be part of sexual sin in the past (follow the link).

And, speaking of “dogmatic or authoritative” to my knowledge there is zero that is irreformable within Catholicism concerning ensoulment today. A council could revert to Aquinas’ late ensoulment position if they chose without scraping declared dogma.

If God could be “trusted” to “inform” women of the right course, no woman would have an abortion under any circumstances. We don’t need to pray to God for him to confirm that abortion is wrong; He has already confirmed it through His Church.

No, the Catholic Church has not received any supernatural public revelation on ensoulment. The Catholic Church has not dogmatically spoke on ensoulment. The Tradition of the Catholic Church is later ensoulment. And I of course do not believe that the Catholic Church is His Church.

Personal experience is irrelevant. We’re discussing what the Mormon Church believes as outlined in the OP - a belief which contravenes essential human dignity.

Only if ensoulment has occurred would abortion contravene the human dignity of the fetus. In the absence of ensoulment, abortion is a horrible sin, but the potential human is not fully human. My personal view is discussed a little more in the link.

No direct abortion is approved by the Catholic Church.

Are you being coy or do you not know what I am speaking about?

The Catholic mother could go to here Catholic doctor and have here fetus (ensouled in modern Catholic thought) removed from her body to die on the table with full approval of the Catholic Church. This is done when an ectopic pregnancy is discovered. This pregnancy will always result in death of the fetus and often result in death of the mother if not treated.

The direct termination of the fetus is the murder of a human being. Period.

Coy or misinformed?
The approved Catholic procedure for an ectopic pregnancy is to cut out a section of the fallopian tube and let the fetus die on the table in the fallopian tube. “No direct” action upon the fetus.
It is my opinion that the safer chemical or surgical procedures that involve direct action upon the fetus are preferable to the position dictated by Catholic bioethics. This is the only place my thought differs from Catholic thought because I do not require such legalistic “double effect” in my view.

If you follow my link you will see more discussion here.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

And the policy is of course applied inconsistently. Some Bishops are much more liberal on what “health of the mother” means than other Bishops. I know of at least one case where an abortion was allowed because it might harm the mental health of a young teenager. Other Bishops wouldn’t have been so liberal on the matter.

Bart and Majick,
There is no general allowance for the mother’s mental health. There is an allowance for the mother’s mental health in the case of rape/incest. I thought I was clear here and in the previous thread on this.

BTW, I understand it is Bishop, Stake President, and Mother who must pray about Rape/Incest pregnancies. I explain in my link how lack of ensoulment, free agency, belief in God REALLY speaking to us, and health of the mother contribute to the position of my church (which I personally go beyond).

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

of course it has apparently “developed” from this :

“We have repeatedly affirmed the position of the church in unalterably opposing all abortions” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 189).

Majick,
Your case for change in the LDS position is a product of dishonest Catholic apologetics her at Catholic Answers. I discuss this in the thread I linked. The CA apologist who wrote that tract employed selective quoting to create the impression of change in the LDS position. This is dishonest IMO.
Charity, TOm

 

[RAR]

People who claim to be Catholic have abortions at a significantly higher rate than people who claim to be LDS.
Charity, TOm

TOm,

Do you mean “rate” or “incidence?” Incidence will be surely higher since the number of Catholics far outnumber the LDS.

And, please explain further, are you trying to say that in centuries past the Catholic Church taught officially that “ensoulment” happened following conception? Or am I misunderstanding? I don’t believe the Church ever used such language, but I am not certain.

There can be no doubt that in modern times the Catholic Church has been the unerring champion of babies right to life. (see Pope Paul VI)

RAR

 

[BartBurk]

Bart and Majick,
There is no general allowance for the mother’s mental health. There is an allowance for the mother’s mental health in the case of rape/incest. I thought I was clear here and in the previous thread on this.

BTW, I understand it is Bishop, Stake President, and Mother who must pray about Rape/Incest pregnancies. I explain in my link how lack of ensoulment, free agency, belief in God REALLY speaking to us, and health of the mother contribute to the position of my church (which I personally go beyond).

Charity, TOm

From a practical standpoint if you allow an exception to abortion, no matter how strongly you might be anti-abortion, you have created a situation where the exception will be used to justify the abortion. Some soft-hearted Bishops will be inclined to agree that an abortion is o.k. if the woman has prayed about it and feels she should abort. I don’t really care how strongly you are anti-abortion. I am interested in the official position of the LDS Church which has been outlined in detail above.

 

[RAR]

An interesting point… the Catholic Church did seem to be ahead of the LDS in regard to the modern day practice of contraception and abortion. This would seem to argue against the LDS doctrine of continued revelation.

RAR

 

[majick275]

Majick,
Your case for change in the LDS position is a product of dishonest Catholic apologetics her at Catholic Answers. I discuss this in the thread I linked. The CA apologist who wrote that tract employed selective quoting to create the impression of change in the LDS position. This is dishonest IMO.
Charity, TOm

I think not. I’ve read the CHI and been told what it means when I was in a bishopric. I know what SWK taught when I was LDS and I know what GBH taught. your twisting of the words is the problem.

 

[cathgal]

I have discovered zero evidence that any Catholic believed ensoulment occurred at conception >400 years ago. Do you have any evidence or do you just dogmatically claim this?

People do not have the knowledge about embryology centuries ago like they do today. Whatever was said about ensoulment was based on what they know then. The teaching of the Church is life begins at conception and therefore, ensoulment.

The only specific statements I have found on ensoulment >200-300 years ago specifically state that the fetus was not ensouled until weeks after conception. (follow the link).

Again, don’t compare modern knowledge to ancient knowledge.

And, speaking of “dogmatic or authoritative” to my knowledge there is zero that is irreformable within Catholicism concerning ensoulment today. A council could revert to Aquinas’ late ensoulment position if they chose without scraping declared dogma.

Regardless, the teachings of the Church on when life begins stand.

Only if ensoulment has occurred would abortion contravene the human dignity of the fetus. In the absence of ensoulment, abortion is a horrible sin, but the potential human is not fully human. My personal view is discussed a little more in the link.

Even you use the pro-abort vocabulary…‘potential human’?
Are you saying the embryo might be a monkey, a dog, a cat,… what?
I would term it as ‘a human with potential’. Yep, definitely a human.

The Catholic mother could go to here Catholic doctor and have here fetus (ensouled in modern Catholic thought) removed from her body to die on the table with full approval of the Catholic Church. This is done when an ectopic pregnancy is discovered. This pregnancy will always result in death of the fetus and often result in death of the mother if not treated.

What are you saying…that the Church approves abortion??

The approved Catholic procedure for an ectopic pregnancy is to cut out a section of the fallopian tube and let the fetus die on the table in the fallopian tube. “No direct” action upon the fetus.

Source please.