Mormon statement on abortion

[xmormon]

I think you have got that wrong. I will tell you the real reason for it. There are in fact several reasons; but there is one that is most important. When Joseph Smith was asked how he was able to govern such a large and diverse group of people as the Latter-day Saints, he famously replied: “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves”. Herein lies the secret of success of Mormonism. Because its leaders are true prophets and Apostles, they have the inspiration of the heaven to guide them in what they teach the people, and so they are able to teach them “correct principles”. The people in turn are able to recognize that they are being taught correctly, and will follow it. People have an innate ability, a sixth sense if you like, that enables them to recognize a correct principle when they hear or see it, and as a general rule will follow it. But if the message that comes from their leaders is erroneous, or is a mixture of truth and error, they instinctively perceive that, and reject the teaching, and source of authority from whence it came. The unfortunate side effect of that is that once they lose confidence in their leaders’ ability to teach them correct principles, then they will not follow them even when they occasionally do; and that is the situation in which the Catholic Church is. I will give you an example. Every intelligent person on earth (apart from Catholic fanatics like yourself), regardless of their religious beliefs, knows instinctively that the life of the mother is of greater value than the life of the fetus. He would rather sacrifice the life of the fetus to save the mother than do the opposite. When you go and tell them that they must hang the mother no matter what, they realize that that is wrong, and will not follow it. And once they lose confidence in your ability to guide them in the right way, then they will not follow you at all, even when you do occasionally teach them correct principles. That is the real explanation as to why so many Catholics have lost confidence in their leaders, and will no longer follow them.

You would have to know nothing about Mormonism to say that. Mormonism is infinitely more demanding than Catholicism. You not only have to abstain from many socially accepted practices such as tea, coffee, alcohol, and tobacco, and also live a morally exemplary life; you also have to give at least 10% of your income to the Church; and in addition to that contribute considerable amount of your time and talent to your callings in the Church, which can be quite demanding at times. The Catholic Church is a spectator church. You go to church once a week on Sunday to watch a bad movie and then come home, and forget about the church for the rest of the week. The LDS Church has no professional clergy. It is run by its members, at their own expense. Not so in the Catholic Church.

zerinus

Obviously you haven’t talked directly with any GA’s about their salaries. LDS General Authorities are paid. Yes that is correct and they are paid very well. Ask your stake president or call the office of the LDS First Presidency at 18012401000 M-F 9-5.Catholic priests etc. take a vow of poverty when entering the priesthood. They do not own anything. Their house car etc. is all owned by the church. This is what Christ meant when he said go and sell all that you have and follow me (no material possessions.I I have been to several GA’s houses huge mansions with indoor swiming pools and expensive cars etc. at the time I was home teaching the widows beat in my ward and knew these elderly women were giving bread off their fixed income table to help pay for the water in some GA’s pool etc. Many Catholics and Christians in the U.S support The Right to life amendment. The Right to life amendment does not allow for any abortions (the purposeful direct killing of a child in the womb). In the Case of Risk to the mothers life the child can be delivered to save the mother but cannot be purposely killed (aborted) in the process. Mormons have bought into the mental stress abortions i.e. rape, incest, deformity, risk to health etc not just the risk to the mothers life. Even in the risk to the mothers life it is never necessary to purposely kill the child. “if problems arise in the pregnancy the doctor will perform a cesarean section. His intent is to save both the mother and the child In my 36 years of pediatric surgery I have never seen a single instance where it was necessary to purposely kill the child in order to save the Mother” (paraphrased from C. Everett Koop Former Surgeon General of the United States…)

 

[majick275]

I think you have got that wrong. I will tell you the real reason for it. There are in fact several reasons; but there is one that is most important. When Joseph Smith was asked how he was able to govern such a large and diverse group of people as the Latter-day Saints, he famously replied: “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves”. Herein lies the secret of success of Mormonism. Because its leaders are true prophets and Apostles, they have the inspiration of the heaven to guide them in what they teach the people, and so they are able to teach them “correct principles”. The people in turn are able to recognize that they are being taught correctly, and will follow it. People have an innate ability, a sixth sense if you like, that enables them to recognize a correct principle when they hear or see it, and as a general rule will follow it. here you make the case against the great apostasy. The Apostles had this authority and taughtthe people. so what happened?
zerinus;3394656:

But if the message that comes from their leaders is erroneous, or is a mixture of truth and error, they instinctively perceive that, and reject the teaching, and source of authority from whence it came. The unfortunate side effect of that is that once they lose confidence in their leaders’ ability to teach them correct principles, then they will not follow them even when they occasionally do;

now you make the case for Islam.

and that is the situation in which the Catholic Church is. I will give you an example. Every intelligent person on earth (apart from Catholic fanatics like yourself), regardless of their religious beliefs, knows instinctively that the life of the mother is of greater value than the life of the fetus. He would rather sacrifice the life of the fetus to save the mother than do the opposite. When you go and tell them that they must hang the mother no matter what, they realize that that is wrong, and will not follow it. And once they lose confidence in your ability to guide them in the right way, then they will not follow you at all, even when you do occasionally teach them correct principles. That is the real explanation as to why so many Catholics have lost confidence in their leaders, and will no longer follow them.

wow what incredible lack of understanding you have. no matter mormons think it’s okay to kill babies.

You would have to know nothing about Mormonism to say that. Mormonism is infinitely more demanding than Catholicism. You not only have to abstain from many socially accepted practices such as tea, coffee, alcohol, and tobacco, and also live a morally exemplary life; you also have to give at least 10% of your income to the Church; and in addition to that contribute considerable amount of your time and talent to your callings in the Church, which can be quite demanding at times. The Catholic Church is a spectator church. You go to church once a week on Sunday to watch a bad movie and then come home, and forget about the church for the rest of the week. The LDS Church has no professional clergy. It is run by its members, at their own expense. Not so in the Catholic Church.

zerinus

no, many catholics go to mass every day. all catholics are required to go on sundays AND holy days of obligation. there is fasting and abstinence as well as mortification. there are no “movies”. (although you do find them in mormon temples.) practicing catholics have religious education during the week adn the home is supposed to be a place of prayer and devotion. we have obvious markers of our faith in crucifixes, rosaries and scapulars. how about celibacy as practiced by priests and religious? pilgrimages and retreats. how many mormon bishops would serve the hours of a catholic priest for the same pay? BTW mormons DO have a paid clergy, a very well paid clergy. they are called general authorities. and they used to give bishops and stake presidents a cut of the tithing back in the old days.
there are also the many opportunities for mormon leaders to use their “callings” as an opportunity to succeed in their careers. catholics are certainly NOT spectators and mormons have a much easier time (provided they pray, pay and obey).

 

[wademann]

I was wondering. How many of the 2 billion catholics are faithfull? If they’re not faithfull, are they still catholic? If they have an abortion, but still go to church, are they wasting their time? If they get a civil divorce and not a catholic divorce, and then remarry are they still catholic?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I was wondering. How many of the 2 billion catholics are faithfull? If they’re not faithfull, are they still catholic? If they have an abortion, but still go to church, are they wasting their time? If they get a civil divorce and not a catholic divorce, and then remarry are they still catholic?

Depends on your definition of faithful. In Catholic terms, Faithful means anyone who as been baptized, so that would be all 2 billion Roman Catholics. If a person sins, including the sins you list, then they should repent, via the Sacrament of Reconciliation, which includes contrition and the desire to not repeat the sin again. And yes, they are still Catholic, at least the Church considers them so, but many self-identify as lapsed or left. And no, going to Mass is never a waste of time.

 

[xmormon]

Obviously you haven’t talked directly with any GA’s about their salaries. LDS General Authorities are paid. Yes that is correct and they are paid very well. Ask your stake president or call the office of the LDS First Presidency at 18012401000 M-F 9-5.Catholic priests etc. take a vow of poverty when entering the priesthood. They do not own anything. Their house car etc. is all owned by the church. This is what Christ meant when he said go and sell all that you have and follow me (no material possessions.I I have been to several GA’s houses huge mansions with indoor swiming pools and expensive cars etc. at the time I was home teaching the widows beat in my ward and knew these elderly women were giving bread off their fixed income table to help pay for the water in some GA’s pool etc. Many Catholics and Christians in the U.S support The Right to life amendment. The Right to life amendment does not allow for any abortions (the purposeful direct killing of a child in the womb). In the Case of Risk to the mothers life the child can be delivered to save the mother but cannot be purposely killed (aborted) in the process. Mormons have bought into the mental stress abortions i.e. rape, incest, deformity, risk to health etc not just the risk to the mothers life. Even in the risk to the mothers life it is never necessary to purposely kill the child. “if problems arise in the pregnancy the doctor will perform a cesarean section. His intent is to save both the mother and the child In my 36 years of pediatric surgery I have never seen a single instance where it was necessary to purposely kill the child in order to save the Mother” (paraphrased from C. Everett Koop Former Surgeon General of the United States…)

 

[majick275]

I was wondering. How many of the 2 billion catholics are faithfull? If they’re not faithfull, are they still catholic? If they have an abortion, but still go to church, are they wasting their time? If they get a civil divorce and not a catholic divorce, and then remarry are they still catholic?

depends on how unfaithful.
if they have an abortion and do not repent by confession, penance and absolution then no they are not catholic. they are by their own actions excommunicated.

if they get a civil divorce and then remarry they are actively committing adultery and cannot validly receive the sacraments of Eucharist or reconciliation (as a minimum) unless/until they rectify the situation by either getting an annulment and then a sacramental marriage OR going back to the single state OR getting yet another civil divorce and reconciling with their proper spouse OR living celibate as “brother and sister” with their spouse.

 

[RebeccaJ]

if they get a civil divorce and then remarry they are actively committing adultery and cannot validly receive the sacraments of Eucharist or reconciliation (as a minimum) unless/until they rectify the situation by either getting an annulment and then a sacramental marriage OR going back to the single state OR getting yet another civil divorce and reconciling with their proper spouse OR living celibate as “brother and sister” with their spouse.

This is assuming that the first marriage was a valid Catholic marriage to begin with, right?

 

[majick275]

depends. even if the first marriage wasn’t a valid catholic marriage, you still have to go through the annulment process to validly marry someone else in the church.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .Catholic priests etc. take a vow of poverty when entering the priesthood. They do not own anything. Their house car etc. is all owned by the church. . . .

X, that’s true of priests who are in monastic Orders, such as the Carthusians, Discalced Carmelites, etc., but that isn’t so for diocesan priests; while many, if not most, live very frugally, they do not take a vow of poverty. On the whole, though, you made good points.

 

[Good_Daughter]

Herein lies the secret of success of Mormonism. Because its leaders are true prophets and Apostles, they have the inspiration of the heaven to guide them in what they teach the people, and so they are able to teach them “correct principles”. The people in turn are able to recognize that they are being taught correctly, and will follow it. People have an innate ability, a sixth sense if you like, that enables them to recognize a correct principle when they hear or see it, and as a general rule will follow it. But if the message that comes from their leaders is erroneous, or is a mixture of truth and error, they instinctively perceive that, and reject the teaching, and source of authority from whence it came.

I get what you’re saying but I’ve also seen things that contradict. Look at the Israelites led by Moses. They’re a prime example of a people taught “correct principles”, yet their infidelity is legendary. (I don’t think Catholics are that bad yet, probably close.) At the other end of the spectrum, look at the incredible fidelity of Jehovah’s Witnesses to The Watchtower, a classic mix of truth and error (I’ll assume we share that opinion). The vast majority of Witnesses don’t instinctively perceive that, nor do they reject the teaching. Sometimes correct principles are disregarded because they’re demanding. Sometimes large groups adhere faithfully to a mix of truth and error. Adherence seems like a poor indicator of correct principles.

Every intelligent person on earth (apart from Catholic fanatics like yourself), regardless of their religious beliefs, knows instinctively that the life of the mother is of greater value than the life of the fetus. He would rather sacrifice the life of the fetus to save the mother than do the opposite. When you go and tell them that they must hang the mother no matter what, they realize that that is wrong, and will not follow it. And once they lose confidence in your ability to guide them in the right way, then they will not follow you at all, even when you do occasionally teach them correct principles. That is the real explanation as to why so many Catholics have lost confidence in their leaders, and will no longer follow them.

Are you saying only unintelligent people follow biblical principles (ie. the life of the preborn is certainly equal to the life of anyone born)? If so, I would rather be an unintelligent, fanatical Bible-believer than an intelligent, rational disregarder of the Bible.

It would be wrong to hang the mother, that’s why authentic Catholic teaching never does. In cases of life-threatening (ectopic) pregnancy, it’s always, as you might say, “hang the baby” because, sadly, there is no other treatment. Maybe you can look for an accurate example of authentic Catholic guidance that mixes truth with error if you wish to make your point.

I find that Catholics, by and large, no longer follow their leaders because they wish to contracept.

Mormonism is infinitely more demanding than Catholicism. You not only have to abstain from many socially accepted practices such as tea, coffee, alcohol, and tobacco, and also live a morally exemplary life; you also have to give at least 10% of your income to the Church; and in addition to that contribute considerable amount of your time and talent to your callings in the Church, which can be quite demanding at times.

Two people are called to be counter-cultural, one gives up coffee, the other gives up contraception. Zerinus, there’s not much of a contest here.

Catholics are also required to live a morally exemplary life. A faithful Catholic, on the surface, will have much in common with a faithful Mormon. I also find the voluntary servitude of faithful Catholics leads to a tithe far in excess of 10%. Christians share everything, even what they keep. You probably know from experience what that’s like.

The Catholic Church is a spectator church. You go to church once a week on Sunday to watch **a bad movie **and then come home, and forget about the church for the rest of the week.

As people of faith, you and I have had some wonderfully civilized discussions on tough issues. Why now, after all our exchanges, do you feel the need to bash? Is nothing sacred? Holy Eucharist is the centre of my life and the life of my family. If you are trying to hurt me by insulting it, then you win. I would not do this to you. 1Cor 13:1

 

[xmormon]

Actually Early LDS did not allow any abortions. They considered abortion murder (Many quotes from the Journals of discourses) an unpardonable sin in the LDS Faith. "D&C section 20 “The unpardonable sin is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood” Now when Mormons have abortions for any reason “Abortion is not defined as murder” (First Presidencies General Handbook of instructions) Women who have abortions in any of the legal cases of roe and doe (LDS honor and sustain the law of the land) are not subject to church discipline. Women who have abortions in the mental stress cases of rape, incest, deformity, risk to health(the word that actually creates abortion on mental stress demand where roughly 95% of all abortions nationwide are done using ‘therapeutic’ mental stress see the Buereau of vital statistics records) do so with the consent of the church and believe they can receive ‘divine confirmation’ to proceed with the abortion (Ensign Nov. 1998 pg. 71 Gordon B. Hinckley) Don’t be conned by B Dawgs arguments for the life of the mother it is only one of the 5 cases Mormons kill their own children in. As for the Book of Mormon heres one for B Dawg and friends. Joseph Smith claimed the book of Mormon was the most correct of any book. But later Joseph Smith hung himself with this statement because he retranslated the Bible ( The Joseph Smith translation or inspired version as it is called) In it he corrected verses of scripture that supposedly had been corrupted for example. Matthew 6:38 says “but seek ye first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you” In the BOM 3 Nephi 13:33 says “but seek ye first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you” Word for word of Matt.6:38 However in the Joseph Smith correction of the Bible he corrected it to read “Wherefore seek not the things of this world but seek first to build up the kingdom of God, and to establish his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you” Point is Joseph Smith blows it bad here because he put the old corrupted version in his BOM and forgot to change it when he retranslated the Bible. He did this many times proving there was no need for the book of mormon "to bring back “the plain and precious things”(1 Nephi 13:35) as he claimed because he blew it and put the old corrupted verses in the BOM time after time. Once again which religion you are in is not asked when women have abortions, all of B Dawgs info is easily corrupted surveys etc. Bottom line Mormons who uphold their leaders and doctrine are guilty before God of the blood of millions of children… Catholics who uphold their leaders and doctrine are guilty of none…

 

[wademann]

Actually Early LDS did not allow any abortions. They considered abortion murder (Many quotes from the Journals of discourses) an unpardonable sin in the LDS Faith. "D&C section 20 “The unpardonable sin is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood” Now when Mormons have abortions for any reason “Abortion is not defined as murder” (First Presidencies General Handbook of instructions) Women who have abortions in any of the legal cases of roe and doe (LDS honor and sustain the law of the land) are not subject to church discipline. Women who have abortions in the mental stress cases of rape, incest, deformity, risk to health(the word that actually creates abortion on mental stress demand where roughly 95% of all abortions nationwide are done using ‘therapeutic’ mental stress see the Buereau of vital statistics records) do so with the consent of the church and believe they can receive ‘divine confirmation’ to proceed with the abortion (Ensign Nov. 1998 pg. 71 Gordon B. Hinckley) Don’t be conned by B Dawgs arguments for the life of the mother it is only one of the 5 cases Mormons kill their own children in. As for the Book of Mormon heres one for B Dawg and friends. Joseph Smith claimed the book of Mormon was the most correct of any book. But later Joseph Smith hung himself with this statement because he retranslated the Bible ( The Joseph Smith translation or inspired version as it is called) In it he corrected verses of scripture that supposedly had been corrupted for example. Matthew 6:38 says “but seek ye first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you” In the BOM 3 Nephi 13:33 says “but seek ye first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you” Word for word of Matt.6:38 However in the Joseph Smith correction of the Bible he corrected it to read “Wherefore seek not the things of this world but seek first to build up the kingdom of God, and to establish his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you” Point is Joseph Smith blows it bad here because he put the old corrupted version in his BOM and forgot to change it when he retranslated the Bible. He did this many times proving there was no need for the book of mormon "to bring back “the plain and precious things”(1 Nephi 13:35) as he claimed because he blew it and put the old corrupted verses in the BOM time after time. Once again which religion you are in is not asked when women have abortions, all of B Dawgs info is easily corrupted surveys etc. Bottom line Mormons who uphold their leaders and doctrine are guilty before God of the blood of millions of children… Catholics who uphold their leaders and doctrine are guilty of none…

blah blah blah blah, Bottom line catholics kill more babies than mormons!!!

 

[RebeccaJ]

blah blah blah blah, Bottom line catholics kill more babies than mormons!!!

Wow, the only defense a mormon has is to resort to school yard taunts.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is now closed.