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Catholic_Dude
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Here is an old post I made on this issue:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2985382#post2985382
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2985382#post2985382
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Good_Daughter
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God’s will seems perfectly clear and unchanging when it comes to the treatment of innocents like the preborn. LDS maintain that God can communicate to man when an abortion is acceptable. This seems impossible to believe of God from what we know of Him.
Is there a place in our common scripture (The Bible) where God advises any person to slaughter an innocent human? Is there a place in LDS scripture where He advises such slaughter? If you can show me a precedent set by God, in which he wills someone to directly kill an innocent person, I will rethink my position.
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Rbt_Southwell
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xmormon
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HI, after numerous discussions with LDS church authorities i left the LDS church because of their official position on abortion. I was in shock to hear them tell me that abortions by members were righteous acts by the righteous. They believe strongly that their god has given and will give his divine confirmation for mothers to kill their own children by abortion in the 5 cases (i.e. rape, incest, deformity, risk to mothers health, and risk to mothers life) approved by the church. If any doubt this they should call the office of the LDS Presidency at 18012401000 they will shock you if you are pro-life. Everything in the LDS doctrine is the same pattern of ancient child sacrifice i.e. a child, a supernatural or spiritual directive to kill the child for whatever reason and the actual killing of the child with the consent of the parents and the spiritual leaders etc. Incredible you say call them up they strongly argue for their abortions…
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wademann
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If it truly matters to you, how many abortions actually happen, and results are what matters, then the CoJoLDS way has better results statisticly. Maybe God knows that the council given to his true church is the one that works best.
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xmormon
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COME AGAIN? How could Mormons end up with less abortions? If your referring to the fact that Mormons only have 13 million members and Catholics have 1 Billion 200 million plus members there may be some truth in your claim. However if you are insinuating that Mormons are responsible for less abortions that is not true. The fact you allow abortions in the 5 cases legalized by Roe and Doe makes you responsible for all of the abortions done in those cases. In Case you are unaware when your church says it allows abortions in the case of risk to the mothers ‘HEALTH’ THIS IS THE SAME LANGUAGUE OF ROE AND DOE THAT LEGALIZED ALL ABORTIONS. Rape is a mental stress abortion, incest is a mental stress abortion, deformity is a mental stress abortion, health can be a mental stress abortion. The reasoning of the Supreme Court was that if a rape victim can have an abortion because of mental stress then any other woman can, thus abortion on demand was born. Read Roe and Doe Call the office of the LDS Presidency 1801240100 then you will realize Mormons bought the entire abortion line and are virtually responsible before God for every abortion that takes place in the U.S. Also LDS leaders opened the door to abortifacients (birth control pills, the morning after pill, R.U. 486) LDS leaders also opened the door to Embryonic stem cell research and LDS political leaders (Orrin Hatch for one) led the way trying to force tax payers to pay for this mass slaughter.
Catholics who do any of these things commit mortal sins and break Catholic law making the church responsible for none of these crimes because Christs true Church officially opposes all of these obvious evils… While true LDS are responsible before God for virtually all these abortions and deaths because of their consent…
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wademann
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Per capita Mormons have less abortions. If I was a fetus I would have a better chance of becoming a baby in a LDS womb. LDS way works better.
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majick275
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aaahh the unfounded allegation. that’s all too common in LDs fast and testimony meetings. (or gospel doctrine classes). do you have any evidence for this?
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wademann
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27% of all abortions are had by catholics according to this.
mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/phil%20115/Stats_on_abortion.htm
Here are some interesting stats on Mormons.
lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/social_eom.htm
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wademann
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zerinus
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There are loads more of interesting data on abortion on the Internet if you know how to look for them. Here is more info on LDS:
Data from the U.S. Govt. Census Bureau lists Utah as the state with the lowest teen pregnancy rate and the lowest abortion rate in the United States. [Source: *Statistical Abstract of the United States 1997: National Data Book. Washington, D.C.: Census Bureau, U.S. Dept. of Commerce (1997).]
The CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics abortion statistics (1993) listed only two states with lower abortion ratios than Utah: Idaho (where 27% are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) and Wyoming. But, whereas in Wyoming and Idaho the percentage of out-of-state residents included in the state’s abortion figures were only 6 or 7 percent, the proportion in Utah was 30 percent. Source.
The whole article is interesting, and is worth a read.
For Catholics, there are loads more information. Here is a typical one:
Latin America [mostly Catholic] holds some of the world’s most stringent abortion laws, yet it still has the developing world’s highest rate of abortions - a rate that is far higher even than in Western Europe [also mainly Catholic], where abortion is widely and legally available.
Increasingly, however, women’s rights groups are mounting challenges in courts and on the streets to liberalize laws that in some countries ban abortion under any circumstances. At least one major case with implications for the entire region could be decided in December. Source.
Again, the rest of the article is interesting if you want to read it.
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Good_Daughter
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Let’s compare apples to apples here. If I was a baby, I would have an infinitely better chance in the womb of a faithful Catholic than in the womb of a faithful Mormon.Per capita Mormons have less abortions. If I was a fetus I would have a better chance of becoming a baby in a LDS womb. LDS way works better.
Those who adhere to Mormon doctrine have few induced abortions. Those who adhere to Catholic doctrine have no induced abortions. This thread is a discussion of doctrine. If you want to talk about those who dissent from their faith, please start a new thread.
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majick275
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so what these statistics show is that people who are willing to break the law are more likely to get abortions.
Western europe hasn’t been catholic for centuries. Latin america has seen catholicism forcefully repressed by the government and has in recent years seen massive conversions to other religions. (poor convert retention but still it shows many are not dedicated to catholicism)
We seem to be comparing worst to worst anyway. if we compare those who follow catholic teaching to those who follow mormon teaching then we will see 0 catholic abortions and few (greater than 0 but statistically a rare exception)
therefore we need to decide what we are really debating here. the teachings of Gods church or individual humans compliance with said teachings?
as to the sources, according to lightplanet the studies were conducted from 72 - 88 and only in 84 was the category LDS added. this casts some doubt on the validity of the final numbers as well as making the study outdated.
the methodology was also dependent on individual self identification as members of the demographic and personal opinion on what was okay or not as opposed to understanding of what was doctrinal.
zerinus source is of far more interest as it is a compilation of cherry picked figures from different studies of different times and organizations. I highly recommend reading his link in it’s entirety.
one specific question I have from his post is why are so many people coming to Utah to get abortions? (30% out of state)
Western europe hasn’t been catholic for centuries. Latin america has seen catholicism forcefully repressed by the government and has in recent years seen massive conversions to other religions. (poor convert retention but still it shows many are not dedicated to catholicism)
We seem to be comparing worst to worst anyway. if we compare those who follow catholic teaching to those who follow mormon teaching then we will see 0 catholic abortions and few (greater than 0 but statistically a rare exception)
therefore we need to decide what we are really debating here. the teachings of Gods church or individual humans compliance with said teachings?
as to the sources, according to lightplanet the studies were conducted from 72 - 88 and only in 84 was the category LDS added. this casts some doubt on the validity of the final numbers as well as making the study outdated.
the methodology was also dependent on individual self identification as members of the demographic and personal opinion on what was okay or not as opposed to understanding of what was doctrinal.
zerinus source is of far more interest as it is a compilation of cherry picked figures from different studies of different times and organizations. I highly recommend reading his link in it’s entirety.
one specific question I have from his post is why are so many people coming to Utah to get abortions? (30% out of state)
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Jerusha
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Maybe due to the LDS support structure and assurance of confidentiality? Good LDS girls who have made a mistake and don’t want their shame to be known will go somewhere else to get it covered up-- preferably somewhere where hypocricy is a way of life?
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zerinus
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Why do you think it is that on the whole a much greater percentage of Mormons follow the counsel of their leaders, and obey the commandments of their Church, than Catholics do?
zerinus
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majick275
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maybe because the LDs church uses a number of proven techniques to assert much greater control over their members.(a common characteristic of “cults”) I suppose you could pursue this fallacious lie of reasoning down the Islamic path and show that immorality doesn’t even exist in the Taliban.
OR you could consider that your unfounded allegation may not be true and that perhaps LDS are just better at hiding their actions. (lying about religious affiliation in surveys out of fear someone might find out, going out of state/country, perhaps more likely to use ABC, perhaps more likely to marry young/“shotgun weddings”, etc.)
OR you could consider that your unfounded allegation may not be true and that perhaps LDS are just better at hiding their actions. (lying about religious affiliation in surveys out of fear someone might find out, going out of state/country, perhaps more likely to use ABC, perhaps more likely to marry young/“shotgun weddings”, etc.)
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wademann
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First you want to claim 2 billion catholics, now you want to throw out all the ones who have abortions. 1.3 million annually times 27%, that would be 351 thousand catholics a year!!!
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wademann
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As opposed to the 100% truthfull catholics that are proud to declare their affiliation to the catholic church and their abortions?
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RebeccaJ
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Also, mormons have no doctrine against the use of artificial birth control. The majority of mormon women who I know are using some sort of ABC. Many of which are abortificants, and those abortions go uncounted in the statistics. (Not possible to count, of course.).
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wademann
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You mean like the cover up that the catholic church is known for?
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