Mormon Temple in Rome, happening today

[lax16]

How did you work that out? Nobody will be competing with anybody.

Come on, zerinus, the Mormons are definitely competing for converts! I was surprised to read this (even though it is eight years old). Missionaries outside the Sistine Chapel?

Sherri Harris, a Catholic, had the chance to recently visit Rome and noticed the activities of LDS missionaries.

When we toured the Vatican and, more importantly, the Sistine Chapel, guess who was standing just outside of the inner-sanctum door leading directly to the chapel? Yep, you got it right, the LDS missionaries passing out LDS literature, trying to convert everyone passing by…I find it hard to believe that the LDS Church authorities can carry on so about other religions passing out their religious literature when they proselytize inside a private building that is adjacent to the pope’s home. (Salt Lake Tribune, December 1, 2002)

Why build the temple 6.5 miles from the Vatican and not in another part of Italy?

 

[Marie5890]

Come on, zerinus, the Mormons are definitely competing for converts! I was surprised to read this (even though it is eight years old). Missionaries outside the Sistine Chapel?

Sherri Harris, a Catholic, had the chance to recently visit Rome and noticed the activities of LDS missionaries.

When we toured the Vatican and, more importantly, the Sistine Chapel, guess who was standing just outside of the inner-sanctum door leading directly to the chapel? Yep, you got it right, the LDS missionaries passing out LDS literature, trying to convert everyone passing by…I find it hard to believe that the LDS Church authorities can carry on so about other religions passing out their religious literature when they proselytize inside a private building that is adjacent to the pope’s home. (Salt Lake Tribune, December 1, 2002)

Why build the temple 6.5 miles from the Vatican and not in another part of Italy?

LDS missionaries in Vatican City? A independent nation/state.
Did they have permission from the Holy See? Is it even allowed?

Something is really odd about that article.

 

[Todd520]

LDS missionaries in Vatican City? A independent nation/state.
Did they have permission from the Holy See? Is it even allowed?

Something is really odd about that article.

I’m fairly certain the temple is in the city of Rome and not in the actual Vatican City

 

[Marie5890]

I’m fairly certain the temple is in the city of Rome and not in the actual Vatican City

Hi Todd!

Sorry for the confusion but I was referring to the article that stated that LDS missionaries were passing out literature outside the Sistine Chapel, which is in Vatican City.

Im guessing that the missionaries may not be aware that Vatican City is an independent state.

I know that the LDS temple will not be within Vatican City.

 

[Marie5890]

Todd, the following is what I was referring too. Dollar to donuts they did not have permission to be standing outside the inner-sanctum of the Sistine Chapel and passiong out LDS literature…

Pretty much a given I bet in fact…

Sherri Harris, a Catholic, had the chance to recently visit Rome and noticed the activities of LDS missionaries.

When we toured the Vatican and, more importantly, the Sistine Chapel, guess who was standing just outside of the inner-sanctum door leading directly to the chapel? Yep, you got it right, the LDS missionaries passing out LDS literature, trying to convert everyone passing by…I find it hard to believe that the LDS Church authorities can carry on so about other religions passing out their religious literature when they proselytize inside a private building that is adjacent to the pope’s home. (Salt Lake Tribune, December 1, 2002)

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker - When the many people I know visited the Draper temple, they commented on the “imported limestone” and “those fancy chandeliers” and the rooms that “looked like my grandmother’s living room” - *not even one person *discussed with me the use of the temple.

When I received (yet another) invitation to tour the temple near Daybreak (not sure what it is called) I was told that I would see a “beautiful staircase where I could stand and look at the beautiful chandelier.” She never mentioned to me that I would learn about the importance of temple work. I have received phone calls, an engraved invitation, verbal invitations, and informal invitations to tour the temples.

I have not attended because by touring the building I will not have a deeper understanding of Mormon rituals. I need to read and study about them. Not drink punch and eat cookies after a museum-like tour.

My choice not to attend temple tours is not out of fear. I am just not interested in hearing the sales pitch after having negative experiences with missionaries and LDS neighbors. When I first moved here to Utah, I would have gone feeling it would be a way of getting to know the LDS culture. But now, I feel that I know too much.

The Catholics I know who toured the Draper temple said “It doesn’t come close to the beauty of the Cathedral of the Madeleine!” The cathedral offers tours on a regular basis. Have you gone? If not, is it out of fear?

Have you toured the Presbyterian church two blocks down from the Cathedral of the Madeleine? It is gorgeous. If not, is it out of fear?

My guess, Parker, is that you have studied Catholicism and Presbyterianism and do not feel the need to visit their opulent churches in order to get a better understanding of their beliefs.

I wonder if the Pope is even aware of the temple in Rome? Mormonism is not considered a major world religion and I am not sure how people in that region would even view it. I don’t know that I would say “fearful” - it’s more like “huh?”

Lax16,
It’s fine with me you didn’t want to go to those open houses. The cookies are mostly for the children who attend those (mostly LDS children, with their parents, since they don’t see the temple rooms after one is dedicated.)

I’ve been inside the Cathedral of the Madelleine. I wasn’t afraid–of course not. Please don’t ask me if I enjoyed being there. (My wife had wanted to stop by and see inside, so we did.)

Again, a temple open house as far as I have been concerned is for LDS children to be able to see inside the rooms of the temple, and for non-LDS to get a basic understanding of why LDS build temples. I don’t think they care a whit about whether non-LDS are impressed or not with the architecture or the furnishings–it would make not the slightest difference to those responsible for those decisions.

I hope the Pope isn’t aware of the LDS temple in Rome, although as I had noted if some leader goes to the open house, that would seem to be a good thing just for the sake of knowing what LDS temple work is about.

Some government leaders from Rome (two) evidently attended the groundbreaking proceedings.

I agree that for most people, the reaction will be “huh?” and that’s perfectly fine.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Please don’t ask me if I enjoyed being there.

Why not?

 

[ParkerD]

Why not?

Zaffiroborant,

I’ve already alluded elsewhere that I don’t like the kinds of artwork displayed. My son had been there another time during the day and liked the stained glass windows, but we were there at dusk so that was not a prominent feature at that particular moment–and that had been the reason he had wanted us to go in, to see those and enjoy their artistry.

 

[zaffiroborant]

TundraMom,
Perhaps you stand alone in not experiencing that deep-seated “feeling of anxiety, apprehension of impending ‘evil’ or ‘danger’” or that feeling of “suspicion, doubt, lack of confidence” when you think about, write about, or talk about LDS people or their beliefs (including their belief in the Book of Mormon) or the history of their church. (Those are definitions of “fear” and “mistrust”.)

But as far as the many who post remarks that have those very elements embedded in the comments (all one has to do is read them), it is using the right words to describe the emotional response that is more than anything else based on misunderstanding.

Like when president David O. Mckay advised then secretary of agriculture and LDS apostle Ezra Taft Benson to avoid a meeting with the pope. Obviously both men were fearful.

Last evening, October, 1957, Elder Ezra Taft Benson called me by telephone at my home and asked whether or not he should accept a government appointment to go to Rome, Italy. The American Ambassador to Italy there would like to arrange a conference for him with the Pope. I told Brother Benson that I would talk with my counselors this morning and then let him know.

---

Telephone conversation with Elder Ezra Taft Benson, Wednesday, October 2, 1957.

(Brother Benson was contacted in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.)

President McKay: Can you hear me, Brother Benson?

Brother Benson: Yes. I am in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

President McKay: Regarding the matter we were discussing yesterday, we are all united in the feeling that if you can in honor, and without embarrassment, avoid that conference it would be well for you to do it.

Brother Benson: All right. I think I can.

President McKay: Was it the Ambassador?

Brother Benson: The American Ambassador to Italy.

President McKay: Yes. I see.

Brother Benson: He is the one who has proposed it. But I think I can avoid it, President McKay, because I am going to be in Rome for a very short time. I have to make an important address for a World Agricultural Congress, and I think the shortness of my stay can probably be used as a reason for not doing so.

President McKay: We have in mind particularly the effect upon our own people.

Brother Benson: Yes. That is the thing that concerned me too.

President McKay: And the dignity that you would have to give to such a conference.

Brother Benson: Yes, that is right.

President McKay: And really they have everything to gain and nothing to lose, and we have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

Brother Benson: I am in full harmony with that feeling.

President McKay: Well that is good. We are glad of that. We all feel that it would be pretty embarrassing to you, and we are helping you out of what might prove to be a conference that will reflect upon our Church.

Brother Benson: Well, I think it could be embarrassing both to me and to the Church.

President McKay: All right.

Brother Benson: I shall do my best, and I think I can work it out.

President McKay: The brethren all send their love to you.

Brother Benson: Thank you and my love to them, and thank you for calling.

President McKay: Thank you, and good-bye."

There is a bit more here and oh ya look, some comments from Pahoran and one from another LDS, Joe from Oregon, who calls the pope the viceroy of satan or the emissary of satan 5 times in his post. Someone has been teaching Joe that the Catholic church is the church of the devil for sure.

 

[Todd520]

lax, it would be really nice if you could offer a proper source for that material
If it was happening I would think it would have made actual news
All I’ve seen is ‘letter to the editor’ confessions without supporting evidence.

Come on, zerinus, the Mormons are definitely competing for converts! I was surprised to read this (even though it is eight years old). Missionaries outside the Sistine Chapel?

Sherri Harris, a Catholic, had the chance to recently visit Rome and noticed the activities of LDS missionaries.

When we toured the Vatican and, more importantly, the Sistine Chapel, guess who was standing just outside of the inner-sanctum door leading directly to the chapel? Yep, you got it right, the LDS missionaries passing out LDS literature, trying to convert everyone passing by…I find it hard to believe that the LDS Church authorities can carry on so about other religions passing out their religious literature when they proselytize inside a private building that is adjacent to the pope’s home. (Salt Lake Tribune, December 1, 2002)

Why build the temple 6.5 miles from the Vatican and not in another part of Italy?

 

[ParkerD]

Like when president David O. Mckay advised then secretary of agriculture and LDS apostle Ezra Taft Benson to avoid a meeting with the pope. Obviously both men were fearful.

Zaffiroborant,

I would say that it is easy to guess what they were alluding to in that conversation. As you know, the Pope might at any point say “Mormons are not Christians” (especially if he is merely being advised by advisors and as Lax and others have said, he has no idea who the Mormons are). Bearing in mind that he views his role as very important for his own followers, then that would be consistent with how he views that role–but that would easily have created an uncomfortable situation for Elder Benson, particularly as one who would have been there as both a government official and as an LDS church leader.

Elder Benson was an outspoken kind of person, and could have “held his own” if confronted about his belief in the living Christ and the attributes of his life that made him a “Christian” in the New Testament use of the term, but that would not have been the kind of setting to do that kind of thing with an audience and possibly media watching the proceedings. So President McKay was being wise.

Incidentally, if that was the same visit to Europe when Elder Benson also went to Russia, then he had a wonderful experience in a Russian Orthodox church, if I remember correctly, with the people attending a meeting there.

 

[WetCatechumen]

The OP’s praise for the Mormon Church is disturbing.

First I want to say, the LDS Church is a pagan organization. Not only does it not reflect the Apostolic Faith, it does not even reflect the Christian Faith.

Hence, it is inappropriate for us as Catholic Christians to praise the growth of the LDS Church.

Mormons are not Christians because they believe that we are not creations of God, but merely intelligences being formed by him into Gods like him, just as he was formed from a base intelligence by a God before him in an infinite regression.

Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe that we are all creations of God from nothing. We are not co-eternal with him. We are not Gods in embryo. However, Christians do believe that the Eternal God became one of his creations in order to imbue us with his divine nature and cause us to become gods after a fashion, but not Gods like him.

Hence, Mormonism is a pagan religion, because it acknowledges that deities are contained within the whole of the system, whereas Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe that God has created the universe and everything about it from nothing. This fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of God renders their baptism invalid.

For this reason, Mormonism fails to be a Christian religion.

Mormonism also claims to be a Christian religion, just like Unitarian Universalism. Neither are, but out of politeness and recognition of the fact that they are loosely based upon Christianity, it is appropriate to acknowledge that they can be classified as a Christian Faith. Much like Mormons stating that the RLDS, the FLDS, and the Rigdonites are not Mormons, but they could be called “Mormons” after a fashion.

That said, I have many Mormon friends. I am taking a class at the LDS Institute of Religion at my University (free parking. w00t!), and today I went around to all the campus ministries from various faiths with the President of the LDS Student Association (a good friend of mine, has been for seven years), inviting them to participate in an interfaith canned food drive.

I have many LDS friends, and I am very fond of them all. They are very good, pious, and holy in many ways. They embrace human life and many other Christian values. These are good things.

These things could also result in the salvation of many LDS.

While Mormonism seems like a big player to me, because it’s very prevalent in my white, middle-class circle here in the Southwest of the United States - it’s a very small religion worldwide. They’re infidels, for sure, not even apostates, heretics, schismatics, or dissenters. But they’re at the bottom of my list of problems with the world.

Kind, decent people who focus on their families are needed in this world. And while I don’t want there to be more people holding to the Mormon religion, I’m always happy to have more pious, holy, scripture reading, prayerful, intelligent, and Christ-like people on this earth. The LDS church does produce a lot of them.

The fact is, relativism and secularism are the two demons plaguing Western Civilization right now. The LDS can be our allies in this battle.

 

[ParkerD]

Wet Catechumen,

Since LDS doctrine about intelligences begins earlier than the phrase “In the beginning” used in Genesis, then I see that in your mind that is something that cannot possibly be. (As to the other statement attributed to LDS about God’s origin, I disagree with it as to its being LDS doctrine.)

What I see as something that cannot possibly be is that God would be the First Cause of all creation, from nothing, since the absolutely logical conclusion is that all subsequent effects (including all the decisions by those created entities, including the rebellion of the fallen angels and all other rebellious acts on this earth) arise from the First Cause since God is omniscient and omnipotent, and would have begun with no predetermined “must be a certain way” plan of salvation.

LDS doctrine does begin before the “In the beginning” phrase, and begins before the rebellion of the fallen angels also talked about in the Bible, and it comprises complete acceptance that Jehovah is Alpha and Omega, and as the Word is the Creator of the heavens we know and of this and other earths. It also includes a plan of salvation that is much more generous than that of your faith tradition as far as God’s ultimate purposes for that plan.

I think the OP poster was being kind and perceptive.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,

I would say that it is easy to guess what they were alluding to in that conversation. As you know, the Pope might at any point say “Mormons are not Christians” (especially if he is merely being advised by advisors and as Lax and others have said, he has no idea who the Mormons are). Bearing in mind that he views his role as very important for his own followers, then that would be consistent with how he views that role–but that would easily have created an uncomfortable situation for Elder Benson, particularly as one who would have been there as both a government official and as an LDS church leader.

Elder Benson was an outspoken kind of person, and could have “held his own” if confronted about his belief in the living Christ and the attributes of his life that made him a “Christian” in the New Testament use of the term, but that would not have been the kind of setting to do that kind of thing with an audience and possibly media watching the proceedings. So President McKay was being wise.

Incidentally, if that was the same visit to Europe when Elder Benson also went to Russia, then he had a wonderful experience in a Russian Orthodox church, if I remember correctly, with the people attending a meeting there.

You have shown quite a level of uglyness of thought toward Catholic leaders through out this thread, you just dress it up better than Joe from Oregon.

 

[ParkerD]

You have shown quite a level of uglyness of thought toward Catholic leaders through out this thread, you just dress it up better than Joe from Oregon.

Z,
I have no idea what you’re talking about, but if you’re saying I consider root elements of what is expressed by people who are following what they have been taught and therefore somehow, somewhere they were indeed taught those things by their leaders, then there is indeed a want of thought going on by either the leaders or the followers.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Z,
I have no idea what you’re talking about, but if you’re saying I consider root elements of what is expressed by people who are following what they have been taught and therefore somehow, somewhere they were indeed taught those things by their leaders, then there is indeed a want of thought going on by either the leaders or the followers.

Your roots are showing, they can be seen in your subtle insults of Catholic leaders and your ugly words about the pope. I agree someone, somewhere taught you these ideas about our leaders. Maybe Mckay and Benson.

 

[ParkerD]

Your roots are showing, they can be seen in your subtle insults of Catholic leaders and your ugly words about the pope. I agree someone, somewhere taught you these ideas about our leaders. Maybe Mckay and Benson.

Z,

We might as well be specific. Which words? (so I clearly understand what you’re talking about instead of just making an assumption about it).

 

[RebeccaJ]

Zaffiroborant,

I’ve already alluded elsewhere that I don’t like the kinds of artwork displayed. My son had been there another time during the day and liked the stained glass windows, but we were there at dusk so that was not a prominent feature at that particular moment–and that had been the reason he had wanted us to go in, to see those and enjoy their artistry.

Hello ParkerD,

The Madeleine is my parish. You are either referring to the paintings of Christ’s Passion, or the very large Crucifix mural. Either way, the first time I went into the Cathedral, as an atheist, I found them disturbing as well.

God touches us in ways that sometimes provoke us. The paintings of Christ’s Passion are the Stations of the Cross. When I have prayed at these during Lent, contemplating on Christ’s suffering and Mary’s sorrow, I have cried.

Jesus Christ died for you ParkerD. This is not an abstract idea, or a symbolic thought, it is a reality of His profound Love. There is no reason to fear it.

I hope you come back to our Madeleine. Perhaps at Lent, to pray in gratitude at what God has done for you, and then on Easter Vigil, where we celebrate Jesus’ conquering over death, and the light and sound inside our Madeleine is all in worship and celebration. And then perhaps again on a Sunday morning, when the sun shines through the east windows, and you can see the large window that portrays Christ Triumphant. It is indeed, very beautiful, especially in the morning sun, and often, there is a tour of the Cathedral after the 11AM Mass, where the guide explains the meaning of the art in the Madeleine.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,
It’s fine with me you didn’t want to go to those open houses. The cookies are mostly for the children who attend those (mostly LDS children, with their parents, since they don’t see the temple rooms after one is dedicated.)

I’ve been inside the Cathedral of the Madelleine. I wasn’t afraid–of course not. Please don’t ask me if I enjoyed being there. (My wife had wanted to stop by and see inside, so we did.)

Again, a temple open house as far as I have been concerned is for LDS children to be able to see inside the rooms of the temple, and for non-LDS to get a basic understanding of why LDS build temples. I don’t think they care a whit about whether non-LDS are impressed or not with the architecture or the furnishings–it would make not the slightest difference to those responsible for those decisions.

I hope the Pope isn’t aware of the LDS temple in Rome, although as I had noted if some leader goes to the open house, that would seem to be a good thing just for the sake of knowing what LDS temple work is about.

Some government leaders from Rome (two) evidently attended the groundbreaking proceedings.

I agree that for most people, the reaction will be “huh?” and that’s perfectly fine.

Hi Parker - If temple open houses are for LDS children then why do so many non-LDS get invitations from neighbors, co-workers, and friends? I can’t tell you how many non-members were riding the shuttle bus up to the Draper temple with their LDS neighbors. Also, I know a whole middle school from a Catholic school that went on a field trip there. The school was invited by an LDS family. That’s how I know about the punch and cookies - it was served to them.

Obviously, I am not asking your permission if I should go or not. My point is, and was, that touring buildings is not the best way to become educated about one’s religion. I am sure that you must agree with that on some level?

Once again, you can say that it doesn’t matter about the extravagance of the building. I disagree. It was touted all over town about the imported limestone, chandeliers, etc etc etc. for the Draper temple. The hype was incredible! And like I said before, my “friend” invited me to see the staircase and the chandelier at the Daybreak area temple. She is the same “friend” that invited the Catholic school children to attend.

Obviously, temple open houses are not for LDS only. And I am assuming that the LDS church is putting in the visitor center in Rome to catch some visitors from the Vatican.

Can you please explain the need for so many temples in Utah that are so close to each other? What are the hours of operation?

So I have to say the Mormons like to build fancy temples (how about the San Diego one visible from the freeway?) To say that it is only for LDS children and that no one cares about the beauty or the impressiveness of it all is just not right.

 

[lax16]

lax, it would be really nice if you could offer a proper source for that material
If it was happening I would think it would have made actual news
All I’ve seen is ‘letter to the editor’ confessions without supporting evidence.

Hi Todd - I cited the source as it is included at the end of the article.
Where would it make actual news? Mormon missionaries at the Sistine Chapel would make the news? Ha!