Mormon Temple in Rome, happening today

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Lax16,
They explain that just as the tabernacle of Moses and Solomon’s temple had symbolic “washing” and so forth and had a font with twelve oxen facing outward, these things happen inside a temple today. They explain that there are instructions and sacred covenants that involve understanding the plan of God’s creation of this earth and the plan of salvation for humankind, including sealing families together forever as a family unit.

How does this tie in with the Old Testament?

The words of covenant making are to be kept confidential because they are sacred promises to God, and to share them with others would be to make them “earthy” instead of “heavenly”. But they are simple promises–nothing mysterious about them.

This is not found in Judaism or Christianity.

I would estimate that perhaps a million LDS members are temple-worthy adult members, and that number grows each week.

How often do these million members from around the world attend the temple for their duties?

Those attending were mostly member families, which explains the large numbers of people and why they had to park at an LDS chapel and bus to the temple location since the parking there is limited.

Many came from out of state, such as Idaho. Why? There are temples in Idaho.

You are correct about “Christian tradition”. If you add in “Old Testament practice” then you have a very different situation. The LDS don’t believe that the New Testament was a complete break from everything the Old Testament had as doctrinal foundations, including of course the belief in the Promised Messiah but also the belief in temples, tabernacles, and “holy places” and that some things within the tabernacle and temple were so sacred that the general population was not told all the sacred details. Also, the Jewish marriage covenant “under a canopy” represents being “inside the tabernacle of the children of Israel” which is what the temple became at the time of Solomon.

Parker - There is no record of such rituals taking place in The Temple of Jerusalem. It was used for sacrifices and prayer. Not weddings, baptisms for the dead etc.

**from the Encyclopedia of Judaism: Temple

The inner walls of the Temple were paneled with cedar wood. The floor of the Holy of Holies was likewise of cedar wood, while that of the outer room was of less expensive cypress wood. The walls were decorated with carvings of gourds, cherubs, palm trees, and flowers in bloom, and were encrusted with gold. There were doors to both the outer room and the Holy of Holies. The walls of the latter were decorated on both sides, and its floor was plated with gold (I Kings 6:29-30). The Holy of Holies was entered only once a year, on the Day of Atonement, by the High Priest.

The most important object in the Temple was the Ark, which was installed within the Holy of Holies. Inside the ark stood the two Tablets of the Covenant with the Ten Commandments. The Ark linked the Temple historically to the Shiloh Sanctuary, which had existed for 369 years, as well as to the Sanctuary which had accompanied the Israelites in the desert. Two wooden cherubs with outspread wings surrounded the Ark, symbolizing the Divine Presence.

In the outer room stood the main implements of the Temple’s daily worship: an Incense altar, the table for the Showbread, and ten lampstands (see Menorah). These were all made of gold or gilded. In front of the Temple stood a “sea,” an immense bronze water basin supported by 12 bronze cattle. Along the east front of the building stood ten smaller water basins, each on its own wheeled stand, five to the north of the entrance and five to the south. A bronze Altar also stood in the courtyard, which was used for the various Sacrifices, both communal and individual.

The Temple itself served as the site for Prayer and for the bringing of sacrifices to God. In addition to the different communal sacrifices offered daily and the additional communal sacrifices brought on the Sabbaths, festivals, and the New Moon (Num. 28-29), individuals offered their own sacrifices, either in thanks or as part of their atonement for sins committed through negligence.

The Temple was the site to which the Omer (the first barley measure, harvested on the second day of Passover) and the First Fruits (on Shavu’Ot) were brought. On Passover eve, all families were required to come to Jerusalem to offer the paschal sacrifice, the lambs being sacrificed in the forecourt of the Temple. Many of the Psalms were originally composed for use in the Temple.**

You might start to think about the Old Testament and the why of Solomon’s temple, but perhaps not so you might leave exactly as you had started out–with a misconception.

What misconception? I know what the The Temple in Jerusalem was used for and it has nothing in common with LDS temple rituals and design.

I suggest that a person really wanting to figure out the answer to that question, would do well to read about the importing of wood and other materials and the craftsmanship and specialness of Solomon’s temple as described in how it was built. Each LDS temple is to indeed be the “House of the Lord” with just as much care in its building and inspiring architecture as was the case for Solomon’s temple.
There was one temple. Why do the LDS build so many if they are trying to be like the OT? Do LDS offer sacrifices in their temples? I am sure not animal sacrifices, but what then? Are the men and women separated? Is there a place in the temple for sacred scripture?
 
Well, I have spent some time going through all the posts…I stayed in Italy for about 6 weeks, went through the western part of the country – Milan, Turin and the church where St. John Bosco attended, as well as seeing the compartment containing the Shroud of Turin, Genoa, Pisa, and then to Assisi while staying with a family in Umbria. We went into a little stone church St. Francis had built before he realized the Lord was calling him to rebuild the faith in Christ’s believers.

I found Italy so rich in Catholic faith, irregardless of the crisis of faith there as is elsewhere in the world. The Mormons have similar beliefs in the sacred covenant of marriage, and to be open the gift of life through children. I am sure these values will be a sign for the Italian people…

I have been to the Madeleine, and if we had moved there, it would have been our parish, but the paintings there were not that attractive to us…but nevertheless, such a beautiful cathedral and the Mass we attended was so profound and emanating the universal and apostolic faith.

We visited the Mormon Tabernacle Choir part of the Temple, but were not allowed in to other sacred Mormon places. At the Vatican, the Mormons will find it very open, including the Masses.

The only trepidation I have is that the new temple will be so large…are there that many Mormons in Rome?? And considering the beliefs of the Mormons…the invalidation of the universal church founded by Christ and His apostles, as well as parts of the interior closed to outsiders, it does seem to step on my toes a little.

My friend lives in SE Italy…at the heel. Practically everyone is Catholic, and they have a small congregation of Walbigensians…Methodists?..But throughout the country, there have been so many saints and international leaders coming from Italy, the most culturally Catholic in the world.
I was at the Cathedral last night, and had read your post before I went. It was late when I left, but before leaving I went into the Blessed Sacrament chapel, and to pray for a little bit before going home.

No one was there but me, so I took my time walking through in the very dim light. Looking at the paintings. I think they grow on you, or at least they did for me. And knowing too, the effort and love for our Cathedral that went into getting them there in the first place, and knowing the monsignor whose job it was to oversee the renovation in the 90’s, and how much he poured into every aspect. I like them all the more.

While no, it isn’t perfect, it is home.

The same for Utah. I’ve lived here my whole life, and have seriously considered leaving. For all its faults , and at times a very exasperating place to live. It is home.

Mormons make their temples large and overly lit at night to call attention to themselves. Usually, they are built in middle-class to upper-class neighborhoods.

Once, a family member who is not LDS and was not raised in UT was here to visit. Staying at a hotel near temple square, we were driving him back and as we passed the mormon temple he asked “Who’s the dude in the dress, playing a horn?” 😃 My daughter asked when she was very young, who lived in the castle?

🤷

I walked through those temple grounds many times, when I worked downtown. One thing for certain, the grounds in Italy will be kept immaculately clean, which I find sort of offish for my own tastes. It is like walking through Disneyland, in that sense, so clean and perfectly manicured that it doesn’t feel real, and sort of creeps me out. ha!

The unclean poor are kept outside the gates. Which also weirds me out to no end. It is like a big monument, to itself. Which is what I see in the design for the Italy temple as well.
 
Hi Rebecca,

I would have loved to be a part of the parish at the Cathedral, and went to confession one weekend to the monsignor you mentioned. He later gave me a year’s subscription to his work on liturgy. I found the Mass there tremendous.

Yes, I could see how the pictures would grow on you…I would say they are a modern’s perspective of Christ’s passion, which wasn’t pleasant, and how our passion is His passion as well.

The LDS has such a unique and particular history, culture, and architecture of its own, and its entrance there to Italy most overwhelming in its scope, that I am sure the Italians will become very interested in reading about Mormonism.

I would say that just culturally speaking the Mormon culture based on its own prophetic history is very, very different from the Italian Catholic culture…there you are either Catholic or you work, eat, and love without going to church. I think of the great opera singer, Pavarotti and his public life, and how he came back to the Church on his deathbed. Alot of Irish like that in America, since the Irish have defined American Catholicism. There is alot of intermarriage between the Irish and the Italian as well.

Mormons should study Italian history of their saints and develop sensitivity and respect for their cultural heritage…I love the architecture there.

Many parts of Italy have devotees to St. Francis of Assisi…Christmas was Francis’ favorite feast day. I got a newsletter about making it a Christmas custom to provide birdseed to parishioners to give to our feathered friends. St. Francis is the one who made a creche for the Nativity, and then picked up the model of the Christ Child, wrapped the statue in swaddling clothes, in the highly lighted nativity scene at night, and then St. Francis carried the Infant to the people…they may think that is statue worship. There is also the famous story of Francis and the wolf of Gubbio, who was killing people, Francis got him to stop, and the wolf ended up being a guardian for the people.

Anyway, all over you can find the people holding on to many remembrances in Italy to the communion of the saints.
 
Well, it is a fruit of secularism, so to speak. If you don’t give your children a grounding in truth, they will be more susceptible to cults and/or paganism. How many children of lapsed Catholics have set up a Buddhist shrine in a corner of their bedrooms?

Mormons in Italy will attract first, the weak who take on religion as a form of escape from suffering and/or sorrow, second the poorly catechized, and third those who disdain tradition and culture out of the secular idea that one should disdain tradition and culture.
 
Rebecca,

I am still pondering this whole intention of the Mormons and to build such a large site…

I remembering seeing just the native countryside before arriving in Rome…and assume the temple will be built somewhat outside the city…

The state Mormon temple is by my house and at the entrance into the most upscale and affluent area in the metro area.

The Catholic Church states its primary option for the poor. When visiting other cities and looking for a good Catholic parish, it is the consensus among us – and this only pertains to Catholic parish communities – that how many times do we see the Holy Spirit at work and deep devotions of the faithful in poor parishes erected near dumps or industrial sites or just poor and crime ridden neighborhoods?

My Italian mission church I grew up in, at my mother’s funeral the pastor told us the night before how someone had come into the kitchen while he slept in the attached room. The burglar picked up his pocketbook. But there was no money inside except a rosary, and I know that has happened to others who have lost their purses—little Bibles or pictures or Jesus and the rosary beads…

But yes, some times we find the best Catholic parishes and the most devout and spiritual in the poor neighborhoods.

The other interesting point in regards to Mormon/Catholic dialogue is that the Pope is also the Bishop of Rome. Many time the locals are more inclined to reflect that adage of what happens to those who are prophets in their own towns. They are too familiar. We wondered how John Paul II would be accepted, but in time he was greatly loved by the Romans.

We Catholics are also allowed to criticize and question anything and everything of the Catholic Church to the Catholic Church. There was a caricature of John Paul II dressed up in a white cowboy outfit on the front of this liberal Catholic newspaper. The liberal Catholics were calling him The Lone Ranger, like who would follow him. When I showed it to the pastor after finding it in the pew, he just laughed.

So it will be very, very interesting to see the teachable moment the Mormons intend to give the Romans, their bishop, and the 2,000 year old culture…if you know what I mean here…
 
Back in 2008 the Mormon (LDS) Church announced it was going to build one of their temples in Rome. It was the subject of this now closed thread on this forum. Today (October 23, 2010) construction begins, their Prophet will be in town to break ground on the new building. I am a Catholic, but excited to see this happen, their temples are beautiful buildings, and I am tolerant of other Christian religions. Plus apparently it will be clear across Rome from the Vatican so we don’t need to worry about that!

More info on the temple
i wish them the best, i pray they convert
 
But for the leader of the worldwide church that considers itself to be the “mystical body of Christ” to meet with one of the actual living Twelve Apostles who would know differently and know that the authority given by Christ to the apostles had been taken away from the successors to the bishops, seems like a meeting that might be uncomfortable for the both of them given each one’s background.
Yes, I am sure that the Pope would be quaking in his boots. :rolleyes:
 
Well, I am sure the Holy Father will extend to the Mormons some gifts of welcome…he has a great resource to draw from…

The Mormons should check out the Vatican Library, the greatest in the world. A Jewish organization studying the Holocaust was also surprised how open the Vatican was in allowing them to research documents. They were also amazed at some findings…but will let the Mormons find that out for themselves…they are known for probity…
 
Mormons are premillenialists, and hold a belief that they will have temples everywhere before Christ comes. So a temple in Rome, the heart of Roman Catholicism has spiritual and religious significance for them.

Mormons are restorationists (such as SDA) and believe the Church in Rome is corrupt. They believe they are bringing to the Italians a non-corrupt form of Christianity. So it is, they will attract those who are poorly catechized and/or view tradition and culture as undesirable. Attracting people who are interested in novelties of religious beliefs, such as themselves.

Mormons view a temple presences as an enhancement to conversion success. If a person becomes curious and shows up, their visitor centers are aimed entirely at conversion of the curious.

They will have some success, as they do wherever they concentrate their efforts of conversion.
 
Yes, its placement near Rome…saw more pictures…does look like it will undoubtedly fuel alot of zeal and fervor among the Mormon missionaries.

We will see if that old adage is true, ‘Do in Rome as the Romans do…’

And they will have to deal with the new converts’ families…wait to see how the Italian families react when they find out they can’t attend their children’s weddings…!!! These won’t back down, and they definitely let you know what they think of you…right in your face!

I worked with an Italian nurse overseas…when she told her family she was going into the missions – again contrast with the Catholics – her sister was so irate she jumped on her and put her hands around her neck…begging her not to go.
 
Yes, its placement near Rome…saw more pictures…does look like it will undoubtedly fuel alot of zeal and fervor among the Mormon missionaries.

We will see if that old adage is true, ‘Do in Rome as the Romans do…’

And they will have to deal with the new converts’ families…wait to see how the Italian families react when they find out they can’t attend their children’s weddings…!!! These won’t back down, and they definitely let you know what they think of you…right in your face!

I worked with an Italian nurse overseas…when she told her family she was going into the missions – again contrast with the Catholics – her sister was so irate she jumped on her and put her hands around her neck…begging her not to go.
Yeah, try to explain to most people that being barred from your own child’s wedding is “all about family”. :ehh:
 
How does this tie in with the Old Testament?
Lax16,
Each of those points ties to the Old Testament and its teachings.

The words of covenant making are to be kept confidential because they are sacred promises to God, and to share them with others would be to make them “earthy” instead of “heavenly”. But they are simple promises–nothing mysterious about them.
This is not found in Judaism or Christianity.
It’s a “cast not your pearls” kind of thing, and a “hidden wisdom” kind of thing, but particularly a “sacred covenants” kind of thing.

I would estimate that perhaps a million LDS members are temple-worthy adult members, and that number grows each week.
How often do these million members from around the world attend the temple for their duties?
It’s all voluntary, and depends on their availability of time. Some attend once or twice in a lifetime if they don’t live close to a temple. Others who live close attend once a month or more or less.

Those attending were mostly member families, which explains the large numbers of people and why they had to park at an LDS chapel and bus to the temple location since the parking there is limited.
Many came from out of state, such as Idaho. Why? There are temples in Idaho.
Perhaps they had family in Utah and had double purposes for coming to SLC.

You are correct about “Christian tradition”. If you add in “Old Testament practice” then you have a very different situation. The LDS don’t believe that the New Testament was a complete break from everything the Old Testament had as doctrinal foundations, including of course the belief in the Promised Messiah but also the belief in temples, tabernacles, and “holy places” and that some things within the tabernacle and temple were so sacred that the general population was not told all the sacred details. Also, the Jewish marriage covenant “under a canopy” represents being “inside the tabernacle of the children of Israel” which is what the temple became at the time of Solomon.
Parker - There is no record of such rituals taking place in The Temple of Jerusalem. It was used for sacrifices and prayer. Not weddings, baptisms for the dead etc.
True, but also in the Encyclopedia of Judaism about marriage and the “tabernacle” one reads words that reflect very sacred covenants which are directly with God and acknowledge a holy place and a divine presence. One also reads words such as “king” and “queen”.
What misconception? I know what the The Temple in Jerusalem was used for and it has nothing in common with LDS temple rituals and design. There was one temple. Why do the LDS build so many if they are trying to be like the OT? Do LDS offer sacrifices in their temples? I am sure not animal sacrifices, but what then? Are the men and women separated? Is there a place in the temple for sacred scripture?
Yes, they are separated and later together in the same room. Yes, there is sacred scripture. In the Old Testament, in Isaiah, you will find that tabernacles will be all over the world in the latter days. Tabernacles is his word for temples.
 
It’s a “cast not your pearls” kind of thing, and a “hidden wisdom” kind of thing, but particularly a “sacred covenants” kind of thing.

I submit that it is a “pagan, Freemasonic, false” kind of thing.
Cast what “pearls” before which swine?
 
Rebecca,

I will be looking forward to the open house comments by the natives…they have so many beautiful buildings in Italy, the architecture, lighting, pools, statues, urns, marble, paintings, frescos, (and the food), that my personal tastes can’t see anything beating them.

To an Italian, life is art!!!
 
At one time, there were many pagan temples in Rome. Christianity and the True Church overcame them all. Christianity and the True Church will again overcome this new pagan temple and the pagan religion contained therein.
Our Catholic Church was founded by Jesus who promised He would be with the church until the end of time.

I feel sorry that your temple weddings cannot be attended by non-Mormons even though they may be a parent or parent because of the secrecy.

It is not like that in our Church. Anyone can attend a wedding whatever your religion is, and I think this is what sets us apart. Our festivities are open to anyone. Baptisms, Confirmations, First Holy Communion, you name it.

And I know that there are many Mormons that attend the Midnight Mass at Christmas.

I’ve always wondered, since you claim to believe in Jesus, why you don’t attend church on Christmas unless it falls on a Sunday.

Here in Salt Lake, all I see honoring Christmas is Santa Claus etc. I do know that you have beautiful displays on the temple grounds during that time, but if you compare that to a church service it doesn’t cut it.
 
For the record,

Pearls are hidden gemstones, found inside of oysters. The symbol is of hidden knowledge or hidden wisdom. The term “swine” as used by the Savior in Matthew 7:6 would seem to mean “one who tramples the pearls of knowledge of the gospel under their feet in disrespect or through unholiness.”
 
I shared with my RCIA group last night about the new Mormon temple coming to Rome. They were stunned. And they already are aware of the implications, which for me do hurt. I stopped by a Deseret store and inadvertently came across texts that made such a negative image of our Church.

Our RCIA leader right away said that there is nothing secret about the tenants of our faith. Our belief system is transparent. I wish more people who want to contend with the Catholic Church would go to a public RCIA meeting and get first hand documents. People here share from the Universal Catechism, but the pastors involved give insight that is hard to find for laypeople in regards to history or just in the presentation of some points of Vatican Councils or parts of the Catechism, or just misperceptions of some element of daily parish life.

The sacraments are visible signs that Christ is present among us. He said He would never leave us. Christ said He would leave us His Comforter, the Holy Spirit, Who would teach us many things…through consecrated and devout souls among the communion of saints.

The Mormons do not believe this. They do not believe it is the Holy Spirit Who started the Church at Pentecost and emboldened and sent out the Apostles to preach the Good News to all people…and that St. Peter is the rock…of human clay…that Christ founded His church. The Mormons do not believe that the Holy Spirit continued to work in those appointed by the Apostles to succeed them.

Yet many times, others that denigrate the authenticity of the Catholic Church end up appearing like, well, you Catholics can’t do it – but we can.

So when the Mormons began-- with an 1800 gap as Christ was not supposedly among us Christians – they called themselves Mormons as they considered all Christians believers corrupt, and that Mormons gave themselves their authority to appoint their successors. However, this appointment of successors is a natural part of human civilization. And it is the Holy Spirit that inspired the Apostles as who to choose to succeed them.

To say the Church ceased with the death of the last apostle and then to denigrate their successors as false denies the working of the Holy Spirit.

Christ came to save all. He did not set aside an exclusive set of people with an exclusive set of practices that are not privvy to anyone else. We are not to reveal that which is sacred within us to another who will only abuse us and defame the Spirit of the Lord within us.

Non-Catholics have the hardest time getting beyond the sins of the chaff in the Church. Jesus said we would always have the chaff with the wheat. And it is part of the test to remain faithful in His church. To be able to receive the sacraments irregardless of the sins of others, is life saving.

I sent the links of the coming Temple to my priest friend in SE Italy. What concerns me is people being rebaptized and then afterwards, seeing a different picture of Mormonism than from when they first came in. However, because of their strong family ties they might not be that indoctrinated in the first place…again because of such a long history.

Last night at the RCIA meeting, a woman said if a couple are married in the Temple, only those who are sealed may attend. Non-Mormons can attend if the wedding is held at the stake…and again…that use of word – stake – implies to me – to claim new territory of Catholic souls to turn to Mormonism.
 
Lax16,
Each of those points ties to the Old Testament and its teachings.

The words of covenant making are to be kept confidential because they are sacred promises to God, and to share them with others would be to make them “earthy” instead of “heavenly”. But they are simple promises–nothing mysterious about them.

Hi Parker - Please tell me and show me where the Jews ever performed such rituals in their Temple. My point is this - The Temple was not used for weddings and baptisms of the dead. You say that the LDS temples somehow tie in with the OT and the Temple. Please explain this. Oxen and fonts are not what I am talking about.

It’s a “cast not your pearls” kind of thing, and a “hidden wisdom” kind of thing, but particularly a “sacred covenants” kind of thing.

It is not part of Jewish custom. Please show me how it is.

Perhaps they had family in Utah and had double purposes for coming to SLC.

I think it more because it was a huge deal and people were coming in from everywhere just to see the temple. There was not this kind of promotion for the other temple.]

You are correct about “Christian tradition”. If you add in “Old Testament practice” then you have a very different situation. The LDS don’t believe that the New Testament was a complete break from everything the Old Testament had as doctrinal foundations, including of course the belief in the Promised Messiah but also the belief in temples, tabernacles, and “holy places” and that some things within the tabernacle and temple were so sacred that the general population was not told all the sacred details. Also, the Jewish marriage covenant “under a canopy” represents being “inside the tabernacle of the children of Israel” which is what the temple became at the time of Solomon.

I know alot about OT practice and none of it is anything like the Mormon rituals performed in their temple.
You are not understanding something Parker - Jews only have one Temple. They don’t have “temples.”
What was sacred within the tabernacle and Temple that was unknown to the general population?
I had a Jewish wedding ceremony in a synagogue with a chuppah so I know how it works. Jewish weddings do NOT take place in the Temple and they usually do not take place in a synagogue. Because an approved Catholic wedding must take place within the walls of a holy place, we were married by a rabbi in a synagogue.

True, but also in the Encyclopedia of Judaism about marriage and the “tabernacle” one reads words that reflect very sacred covenants which are directly with God and acknowledge a holy place and a divine presence. One also reads words such as “king” and “queen”.

What is the connection here? The tabernacle is the cabinet to hold the Ark, right?
What sacred covenants are secretive? This would be news to my Jewish family and friends!
Please explain the connection between “king” and “queen” and Jewish wedding ceremonies and/or LDS wedding ceremonies taking place in a temple? We were not king and queen at our wedding!

Yes, they are separated and later together in the same room. Yes, there is sacred scripture. In the Old Testament, in Isaiah, you will find that tabernacles will be all over the world in the latter days. Tabernacles is his word for temples.
Please explain what sacred scripture Mormons house in a tabernacle in their temples.
For Jews, tabernacles are put into synagogues, not temples.
There are not Jewish temples all over the world. Tabernacles is the same word for temples??? - please cite your source. There will never be another temple except for the one in Israel.
 
Tabernacle (Jewish), also called the ‘tent of meeting’. The portable shrine said to have been constructed under Moses’ direction during the wilderness wanderings. Theologically it was held to embody the presence of God in the midst of His people. The writer of Heb. used the imagery of the Tabernacle to explain the meaning of Christ’s atoning work (cf. Heb. 1:9–10:25).

It is clear that a tabernacle is meant to be something that is portable.
 
For the record,
Pearls are hidden gemstones, found inside of oysters. The symbol is of hidden knowledge or hidden wisdom. The term “swine” as used by the Savior in Matthew 7:6 would seem to mean “one who tramples the pearls of knowledge of the gospel under their feet in disrespect or through unholiness.”
I see no “pearls of knowledge” in quasi-masonic rituals or false doctrine.
 
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