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KathleenGee
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God gave us Christ to save us from our sins, not play games.
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Todd520
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Kathleen, can you please expand on this?
I don’t see the point you are making - who is playing games?
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KathleenGee
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The secrets…the oaths, what is happening in the Temple…the exclusiveness of those only sealed can enter…
Also the exclusiveness pertaining only to the Mormons being the true believers since the death of the Apostles.
Because I have lived and worked among either immigrants, first generation, or side by side with Italian priests and sisters, lived in Italy a short time, studied the history and culture for a number of years…as well as the remarks by your prophet that the Roman Church is an abomination…all these concepts come from sort of secret knowledge that is usually attributed to secret societies.
It is a fact that the symbols and oaths in Mormonism, whether they are in use or not, come from Masonry.
I am over 60 years old now, and time has passed so fast. I remember seeing the effects of the military coming home from World War II! I do not understand why Mormons reject the symbols and movements used at the Mass, which was pretty much standardized 60 years after the death of St. John. This is because these symbols and movements are drawn from Judaism. Catholicism essentially fulfills Judeism. So you can read up on St. Justin the Martyr’s description of the Mass for a Roman emperor dated around 155 A.D., a mere (in regards to my age) 60 years or so following the death of the last apostle. Alot of ground work was relatively quickly made in the years following the passing of our apostles.
Finally, seeing old texts of the Mormon condemnation of the Roman Church, placing the Temple, whose architecture is so different from the Italian is in its placement and stature making a statement. I don’t equate the Mormons like those imposing the mosque at the WTC…this past week or so, a prominent Middle Easterner again said to move it to avoid hurting wounded people and the American people in general…the Mormons are very kind people and we have posters here and one in particular, acknowledging our appreciation and acknowledgement of the Mormon people…but again to say nothing happened after the last apostles is false.
I wish you could have attended our RCIA meeting last night, Todd…and what the Eucharist does in our lives. We left seeing how much more we need to learn about our Catholic faith and how Christ present in the sacraments impact our lives and our church. Scott Hahn is a former protestant, and had a near Master’s level education in Revelation. When he finally came to a Catholic Mass, he saw so much fulfillment from the last apostle’s prophetic Revelations.
All that was to be revealed was already done in Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago and He did not leave us orphans…going to work now…
God bless you, Todd, and I also acknowledge your own indignation of those passing out tracts at the Sistene Chapel.
Scott Hahn wrote a book on ‘The Last Supper’…I want to get it…I don’t have the exact title handy. Another to read is Fr Jeremy Driscoll’s, ‘What Happens at Mass’. Please be fair to yourself, a former Catholic. These are both short books.
Also the exclusiveness pertaining only to the Mormons being the true believers since the death of the Apostles.
Because I have lived and worked among either immigrants, first generation, or side by side with Italian priests and sisters, lived in Italy a short time, studied the history and culture for a number of years…as well as the remarks by your prophet that the Roman Church is an abomination…all these concepts come from sort of secret knowledge that is usually attributed to secret societies.
It is a fact that the symbols and oaths in Mormonism, whether they are in use or not, come from Masonry.
I am over 60 years old now, and time has passed so fast. I remember seeing the effects of the military coming home from World War II! I do not understand why Mormons reject the symbols and movements used at the Mass, which was pretty much standardized 60 years after the death of St. John. This is because these symbols and movements are drawn from Judaism. Catholicism essentially fulfills Judeism. So you can read up on St. Justin the Martyr’s description of the Mass for a Roman emperor dated around 155 A.D., a mere (in regards to my age) 60 years or so following the death of the last apostle. Alot of ground work was relatively quickly made in the years following the passing of our apostles.
Finally, seeing old texts of the Mormon condemnation of the Roman Church, placing the Temple, whose architecture is so different from the Italian is in its placement and stature making a statement. I don’t equate the Mormons like those imposing the mosque at the WTC…this past week or so, a prominent Middle Easterner again said to move it to avoid hurting wounded people and the American people in general…the Mormons are very kind people and we have posters here and one in particular, acknowledging our appreciation and acknowledgement of the Mormon people…but again to say nothing happened after the last apostles is false.
I wish you could have attended our RCIA meeting last night, Todd…and what the Eucharist does in our lives. We left seeing how much more we need to learn about our Catholic faith and how Christ present in the sacraments impact our lives and our church. Scott Hahn is a former protestant, and had a near Master’s level education in Revelation. When he finally came to a Catholic Mass, he saw so much fulfillment from the last apostle’s prophetic Revelations.
All that was to be revealed was already done in Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago and He did not leave us orphans…going to work now…
God bless you, Todd, and I also acknowledge your own indignation of those passing out tracts at the Sistene Chapel.
Scott Hahn wrote a book on ‘The Last Supper’…I want to get it…I don’t have the exact title handy. Another to read is Fr Jeremy Driscoll’s, ‘What Happens at Mass’. Please be fair to yourself, a former Catholic. These are both short books.
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onmyknees
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The book by Dr. Scott Hahn is called " The Lamb’s Supper" “Mass as Heaven on Earth”
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RebeccaJ
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The relationship of the LDS church to Catholicism has from the beginning been hot and cold, for many years downright frigid. Especially during times when the LDS church has been led by anti-Catholics (such as Benson or McKay).
The Mormon approach still is of a passive-aggressive nature. Good relationships are for them a means to their own ends. Catholicism is still an abomination, just, don’t say this in public as it might deter the mission of the LDS Church, which is to replace the truth of Christianity with their religious falsehood. Wholly and completely.
LDS view their temple in Rome as a “miracle”, made possible by the Italian govt. relaxing laws on non-Catholic religions. Giving recognition just a few years ago to Mormonism as a religion, rather than just a non-profit org. The Italian govt has also given recognition to Mormon bishops to legally perform marriages.
The growth of secularism in Italy has been of benefit to non-Christian religions.
Mormons seem to confuse Italian govt with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not recognize Mormonism as a Christian religion, and for good reason. Their view of Jesus Christ as a creature, who has not always been God, to begin with is not Christian. It goes downhill from there.
There can be no ecumenism with non-Christian religions, it just isn’t possible, as ecumenism is grounded in the concept of unity. How can Christianity unify in belief with non-Christians if they are not of the same faith, not even worshiping the same God?
Mormons get their panties in a was over this, but the facts are the facts, and I don’t know why they expect the rest of the world to pretend they are something they aren’t.
The Mormon approach still is of a passive-aggressive nature. Good relationships are for them a means to their own ends. Catholicism is still an abomination, just, don’t say this in public as it might deter the mission of the LDS Church, which is to replace the truth of Christianity with their religious falsehood. Wholly and completely.
LDS view their temple in Rome as a “miracle”, made possible by the Italian govt. relaxing laws on non-Catholic religions. Giving recognition just a few years ago to Mormonism as a religion, rather than just a non-profit org. The Italian govt has also given recognition to Mormon bishops to legally perform marriages.
The growth of secularism in Italy has been of benefit to non-Christian religions.
Mormons seem to confuse Italian govt with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not recognize Mormonism as a Christian religion, and for good reason. Their view of Jesus Christ as a creature, who has not always been God, to begin with is not Christian. It goes downhill from there.
There can be no ecumenism with non-Christian religions, it just isn’t possible, as ecumenism is grounded in the concept of unity. How can Christianity unify in belief with non-Christians if they are not of the same faith, not even worshiping the same God?
Mormons get their panties in a was over this, but the facts are the facts, and I don’t know why they expect the rest of the world to pretend they are something they aren’t.
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wisdomseeker
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And would make no sense whatsoever for the CC to embrace a religion other than one True religion that was commanded by God to teach all men. why would the CC wanted people to be deceived by a false religion? i would think that the CC trive to bring all people into the Truth and not be deceived.
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RebeccaJ
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Indeed.
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KathleenGee
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Onmyknees, thanks for providing the exact title to Todd, and I hope alot more people will read Scott’s book on the liturgy, including Catholics. There is the term, economy of salvation, that people who are still greatly afflicted by the Reformation, – continue to see that as placing a monetary value on Catholic salvation.
The economy of salvation means the opposite…there are people who live to make money…there are people who make time to learn more about God and their faith to provide them eternal life. So we should always study the Liturgy, that is where we come together the most, and the more we learn what the liturgy is — the work of the people with the priest and rites…the more we better participate at the Mass.
God gave the Jews His desire for the way He wanted to be worshipped. Christ addressed His apostles, ‘Do this in memory of Me’…beginning His institution of the priesthood. Christ spoke of heaven as a banquet table. But He also said the kingdom of God is at hand, the kingdom of Christ is within.
The living Person of Jesus Christ enters our hearts, souls, minds, and bodies commencing the Kingdom of Christ within us. We learn every day to follow the Lord, to die to Him, to allow Him to grow more and more into us so we can become more Christlike.
The Kingdom of Christ is within, and the focus is not on our cathedrals.
And of course, the Mass is public and anyone is welcome to attend. But there is so much meaning and depth to the rites…all follow a certain sequence to bring us to Christ.
Yes, Rebecca, it is true that we are considered the abomination, the Protestants our daughters…so that is why Mormons do not use the name Christian at all, because the Protestants are lumped in with us.
Baptism does make all Christians Catholic, irregardless of which denomination.
I think the problem with Mormonism is this great gap in history, this great lapse of anything Christian.
Yes, I realize the Mormons do consider individual Christians as righteous…but you cannot separate a Catholic from our beliefs and sacraments, and the liturgy, any other Christian from the formation they receive in their denomination because we are all people, including the administrators.
If one thinks otherwise, then the Mormons are indeed placing guilt on the administrators and pastors of parishes and ecclesial communities, but the righteous ones are those that follow the teachings and guidance by the very same authorities!! This is a contradiction again.
The Italians will have to find out for themselves what administrators they wish to follow. I think they are foolish to let go of such a magnificent and fabulous culture to instead fit in with modern secular culture. But it will be a teaching moment for both Catholic and Mormon administrators…going to the heart of the ‘evil empire’…my pun, of course.
The economy of salvation means the opposite…there are people who live to make money…there are people who make time to learn more about God and their faith to provide them eternal life. So we should always study the Liturgy, that is where we come together the most, and the more we learn what the liturgy is — the work of the people with the priest and rites…the more we better participate at the Mass.
God gave the Jews His desire for the way He wanted to be worshipped. Christ addressed His apostles, ‘Do this in memory of Me’…beginning His institution of the priesthood. Christ spoke of heaven as a banquet table. But He also said the kingdom of God is at hand, the kingdom of Christ is within.
The living Person of Jesus Christ enters our hearts, souls, minds, and bodies commencing the Kingdom of Christ within us. We learn every day to follow the Lord, to die to Him, to allow Him to grow more and more into us so we can become more Christlike.
The Kingdom of Christ is within, and the focus is not on our cathedrals.
And of course, the Mass is public and anyone is welcome to attend. But there is so much meaning and depth to the rites…all follow a certain sequence to bring us to Christ.
Yes, Rebecca, it is true that we are considered the abomination, the Protestants our daughters…so that is why Mormons do not use the name Christian at all, because the Protestants are lumped in with us.
Baptism does make all Christians Catholic, irregardless of which denomination.
I think the problem with Mormonism is this great gap in history, this great lapse of anything Christian.
Yes, I realize the Mormons do consider individual Christians as righteous…but you cannot separate a Catholic from our beliefs and sacraments, and the liturgy, any other Christian from the formation they receive in their denomination because we are all people, including the administrators.
If one thinks otherwise, then the Mormons are indeed placing guilt on the administrators and pastors of parishes and ecclesial communities, but the righteous ones are those that follow the teachings and guidance by the very same authorities!! This is a contradiction again.
The Italians will have to find out for themselves what administrators they wish to follow. I think they are foolish to let go of such a magnificent and fabulous culture to instead fit in with modern secular culture. But it will be a teaching moment for both Catholic and Mormon administrators…going to the heart of the ‘evil empire’…my pun, of course.
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Harvard
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lax16
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Before I click on the links, can you tell me if I will be made to understand why we need Mormon temples?
Please provide info on the relationship between LDS temples and the rituals that are performed within and the Old and or New Testament. Also, please provide LDS teachings/writings/revelations on them as well.
Thanks!
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lax16
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Apparently you have not been reading prior posts from Parker explaining the connection between LDS temples/rituals and the Old Testament.
from post #134
Each of those points ties to the Old Testament and its teachings.
Quote:
This is not found in Judaism or Christianity.
It’s a “cast not your pearls” kind of thing, and a “hidden wisdom” kind of thing, but particularly a “sacred covenants” kind of thing.
You are correct about “Christian tradition”. If you add in “Old Testament practice” then you have a very different situation. The LDS don’t believe that the New Testament was a complete break from everything the Old Testament had as doctrinal foundations, including of course the belief in the Promised Messiah but also the belief in temples, tabernacles, and “holy places” and that some things within the tabernacle and temple were so sacred that the general population was not told all the sacred details. Also, the Jewish marriage covenant “under a canopy” represents being “inside the tabernacle of the children of Israel” which is what the temple became at the time of Solomon.
You might start to think about the Old Testament and the why of Solomon’s temple, but perhaps not so you might leave exactly as you had started out–with a misconception.
Just because people try to appeal to a person’s interest by mentioning something they think might be interesting to them, does not mean that is their sole interest for making the invite. One could ask them why, and they would probably expand on their simple explanation of “beautiful fixtures”. (I wasn’t saying to “discuss temple rituals”, but rather to “understand the Old Testament temple better to understand the LDS temple better.”)
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Will the tourists learn about baptisms for the dead and secret marriage ceremonies?
In a general way, yes.
I suggest that a person really wanting to figure out the answer to that question, would do well to read about the importing of wood and other materials and the craftsmanship and specialness of Solomon’s temple as described in how it was built. Each LDS temple is to indeed be the “House of the Lord” with just as much care in its building and inspiring architecture as was the case for Solomon’s temple.
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Harvard
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Actually I have read the entirety of this thread. What ParkerD stated as to the temple “tying into” the OT has nothing to do with your questioning of whether the LDS are “trying to be like the OT”. For example, Catholics and Orthodox believe that their liturgies “tie into” the OT. The structure of Orthodox churches and traditional Catholic churches “ties into” the OT, for example. This does not mean that Catholics and Orthodox are trying to reconstruct Judaic temples and rituals and “be like the OT”. Similarly, LDS believe that the LDS temples tie into the OT, but they are not a reconstruction of the OT temple (since LDS believe in continuing new revelation, and that some things were not practiced in the past that have been revealed in latter days). Therefore, your questions about having more than one temple or “trying to be like the OT” shows a misunderstanding of what ParkerD actually stated and what LDS actually believe about temples.
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zerinus
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LOL! Here is a link from the same YouTube channel which tells you why we need temples.
That is a lot! But to be brief, the October issue of the LDS magazine the Ensign is devoted to the temple. That is as good a place to start as any. (It is a large PDF version that may take a while to download; you may have to be patient.
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Harvard
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RebeccaJ
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The only “tie in” is the word temple.
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KathleenGee
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Hmmm…they’re trying to take us away!..Oh my!..they’re trying to take us away!! Oh my!
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RebeccaJ
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Ha! It is a merry-go-round. First Mormons tells us their temples are restoration of OT temples, and go to great lengths to dig up anything and everything that might vaguely resemble their temple worship, and then they say their temples aren’t really meant to resemble OT temples.
:whacky:
It must be exhausting to be a Mormon, that’s all I can say.
:whacky:
It must be exhausting to be a Mormon, that’s all I can say.
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ParkerD
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Lax16,
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ParkerD
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Lax16,
You are correct that evidently those ordinances weren’t done inside 'the temple during Old Testament times, but the font was used to cleanse the Levite priest before he entered the temple. Baptism for the dead would not have occurred during Old Testament times, because the Savior hadn’t yet visited the captives and proclaimed liberty and opened the prison doors for them. He did that during the time between the crucifixion and His resurrection.
Solomon’s temple would not have had the full implications of what it would have meant to have a “kingdom of priests” as God had originally intended for the children of Israel to be, but there are implications in the Jewish wedding ceremony that they had an understanding that that ceremony was extremely sacred and holy and was as though God were performing the ceremony in a holy place. (I’ll post a link that describes this in a post to follow.)
I doubt that you know the words that were spoken or all the specific duties that were performed, nor would we expect that the Jews were telling the outside world about those words or those sacred duties. There was “washing”. There was “anointing”. There were sacred, symbolic duties performed by those who had been specially called to perform those duties and who needed to be worthy before they were allowed to perform those duties. (I’m not saying that the same words or duties are reflected in an LDS temple, but the similarity is in that they are apart from the outside world, in a holy place, using ordinances that God revealed for His purposes, and also using ordinances that show a centrality of belief in the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah (even though the Jews didn’t understand that most of the time).
I’ll post a link after this to an article about the ceremony. (Yours may have been different.)
I will post the link after this that shows the use of those words, which were symbolic of the nature of the marriage covenant. The tabernacle was specifically made to be the “house of the Lord” while the children of Israel were being led by God in the wilderness, and even guided their route by means of the pillar of fire and the cloud that were associated symbols.
Solomon built the temple so that there would be a holy place where the ark of the covenant could be and it would be the “house of the Lord” and be a place of holiness separate and apart from the outside world, with much symbolism therein.
The Holy Bible, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Book of Mormon.
I can see why you would draw these conclusions using the Old Testament, but if one realizes that the temple really did function as the “new tabernacle” which was the “house of the Lord” and housed the Ark of the Covenant as the tabernacle had previously functioned, then one can follow the symbolism as Isaiah describes a latter-day “tabernacle” that is a “refuge from storm”, and from heat, and as Isaiah wrote about “stakes of Zion” and about a “holy people” or a “holy nation” and about Gentiles being a part of that in the latter days and uses the phrase, “who hath begotten me these?”. He also indicates that the “earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the seas”–so the symbolism of a holy people expands beyond the borders of Jerusalem and eventually expands throughout the earth.
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