Mormon Temple in Rome, happening today

[ParkerD]

Lax16,

Here follows part of the Jewish Encyclopedia article about the Shekinah (anyone who reads this should do so with reverence, please, as this is discussing a sacred subject):

jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=588&letter=S

SHEKINAH  

By : Kaufmann Kohler   Ludwig Blau

ARTICLE HEADINGS:
In the Targumim.
In the Apocrypha and New Testament.
Nature of the Shekinah.
Appearances of the Shekinah.
Those on Whom the Shekinah Rested.
To Whom Does the Shekinah Appear?
The Shekinah as Light.

In the Targumim.

The majestic presence or manifestation of God which has descended to “dwell” among men. Like Memra (= “word”; “logos”) and “Yeḳara” (i.e., “Kabod” = “glory”), the term was used by the Rabbis in place of “God” where the anthropomorphic expressions of the Bible were no longer regarded as proper (see Anthropomorphism). The word itself is taken from such passages as speak of God dwelling either in the Tabernacle or among the people of Israel (see Ex. xxv. 8, xxix. 45-46; Num. v. 3, xxxv. 34; I Kings vi. 13; Ezek. xliii. 9; Zech. ii. 14 [A. V. 10]). Occasionally the name of God is spoken of as descending (Deut. xii. 11; xiv. 23; xvi. 6, 11; xxvi. 2; Neh. i. 9). It is especially said that God dwells in Jerusalem (Zech. viii. 3; Ps. cxxxv. 21; I Chron. xxiii. 25), on Mount Zion (Isa. viii. 18; Joel iv. [A. V. iii.] 17, 21; Ps. xv. 1, lxxiv. 2), and in the Temple itself (Ezek. xliii. 7). Allusion is made also to “him that dwelt in the bush” (Deut. xxxiii. 16, ); and it is said that “the glory of the Lord abode upon Mount Sinai” (Ex. xxiv. 16). The term “Shekinah,” which is Hebrew, whereas “Memra” and “Yeḳara” are Aramaic, took the place of the latter two in Talmudand Midrash, and thus absorbed the meaning which they have in the Targum, where they almost exclusively occur. Nevertheless the word “Shekinah” occurs most frequently in the Aramaic versions, since they were intended for the people and were actually read to them, and since precautions had therefore to be taken against possible misunderstandings in regard to the conception of God. The word “dwell” in the Hebrew text is accordingly rendered in the Targumim by the phrase “let the Shekinah rest” (e.g., Ex. xxv. 8; xxix. 45, 46; Num. v. 3, xxxv. 34; Deut. xxxii. 10 [R. V. “he compassed him about”]; Ps. lxxiv. 2). Onḳelos translates “Elohim” in Gen. ix. 27 by “Shekinah”; and wherever the person, the dwelling, or the remoteness of God is mentioned, he paraphrases by the same word (Num. xiv. 14, 42; xvi. 3; xxxv. 34; Deut. i. 42, iii. 24, iv. 39, vi. 15, vii. 21, xxiii. 16, xxxi. 17); so too, wherever the Name occurs, he substitutes for it the term “Shekinah” (Deut. xii. 5, 11, 21), and “presence” or “face” is translated the same way (Ex. xxxiii. 14-15; Num. vi. 25; Deut. xxxi. 17-18; see Maybaum, “Anthropomorphien,” etc., pp. 52-54). Targ. pseudo-Jonathan and Yerushalmi adopt a like system, as in Ps. xvi. 8, lxxxix. 47, Lam. ii. 19, and Cant. vi. 1 (ib. pp. 64 et seq.). Where the text states that God dwells in the Temple above the cherubim (as in Hab. ii. 20; I Sam. iv. 4; II Sam. vi. 2; I Kings viii. 12, 13; xiv. 21; Ps. lxxiv. 2), or that God has been seen (Isa. vi. 6 et seq.; Ex. iii. 6; Ezek. i. 1; Lev. ix. 4), the Yerushalmi has “Shekinah”; and even where it describes God as abiding in heaven, the same word is used (Isa. xxxiii. 5; Deut. iii. 24, iv. 39). This statement holds true also of allusions to His remoteness or to the hiding of His face (Hos. v. 6; Isa. viii. 17, xlv. 15; Hastings, “Dict. Bible,” iv. 488b). The Temple is called the “house of the Shekinah” (Targ. Onḳ. to Deut. xii. 5; Ps. xlix. 15, cviii. 8); and the term likewise occurs in connection with “glory” (“yeḳara”; Ruth ii. 12; Cant. iii. 6, iv. 6, v. 6; Ps. xliv. 25, lxviii. 19, cxv. 16; Jer. xix. 18) and with “holiness” (Cant. i. 10, ii. 2, iii. 2, vi. 1; Ps. lxxiv. 12, lxxxvi. 3).

 

[ParkerD]

Lax16,

Here is a link briefly describing the traditional Jewish wedding, including the use of the words “king” and “queen” (the word “queen” is also used in the Jewish Encyclopedia article, along with the explanation that the couple are to become like Abraham with posterity numbering “as the stars”):

judaism.about.com/od/weddings/a/all_marriage.htm

 

[JeanMichel]

I shared with my RCIA group last night about the new Mormon temple coming to Rome. They were stunned. And they already are aware of the implications, which for me do hurt. I stopped by a Deseret store and inadvertently came across texts that made such a negative image of our Church.

Our RCIA leader right away said that there is nothing secret about the tenants of our faith. Our belief system is transparent. I wish more people who want to contend with the Catholic Church would go to a public RCIA meeting and get first hand documents. People here share from the Universal Catechism, but the pastors involved give insight that is hard to find for laypeople in regards to history or just in the presentation of some points of Vatican Councils or parts of the Catechism, or just misperceptions of some element of daily parish life.

The sacraments are visible signs that Christ is present among us. He said He would never leave us. Christ said He would leave us His Comforter, the Holy Spirit, Who would teach us many things…through consecrated and devout souls among the communion of saints.

The Mormons do not believe this. They do not believe it is the Holy Spirit Who started the Church at Pentecost and emboldened and sent out the Apostles to preach the Good News to all people…and that St. Peter is the rock…of human clay…that Christ founded His church. The Mormons do not believe that the Holy Spirit continued to work in those appointed by the Apostles to succeed them.

Yet many times, others that denigrate the authenticity of the Catholic Church end up appearing like, well, you Catholics can’t do it – but we can.

So when the Mormons began-- with an 1800 gap as Christ was not supposedly among us Christians – they called themselves Mormons as they considered all Christians believers corrupt, and that Mormons gave themselves their authority to appoint their successors. However, this appointment of successors is a natural part of human civilization. And it is the Holy Spirit that inspired the Apostles as who to choose to succeed them.

To say the Church ceased with the death of the last apostle and then to denigrate their successors as false denies the working of the Holy Spirit.

Christ came to save all. He did not set aside an exclusive set of people with an exclusive set of practices that are not privvy to anyone else. We are not to reveal that which is sacred within us to another who will only abuse us and defame the Spirit of the Lord within us.

Non-Catholics have the hardest time getting beyond the sins of the chaff in the Church. Jesus said we would always have the chaff with the wheat. And it is part of the test to remain faithful in His church. To be able to receive the sacraments irregardless of the sins of others, is life saving.

I sent the links of the coming Temple to my priest friend in SE Italy. What concerns me is people being rebaptized and then afterwards, seeing a different picture of Mormonism than from when they first came in. However, because of their strong family ties they might not be that indoctrinated in the first place…again because of such a long history.

Last night at the RCIA meeting, a woman said if a couple are married in the Temple, only those who are sealed may attend. Non-Mormons can attend if the wedding is held at the stake…and again…that use of word – stake – implies to me – to claim new territory of Catholic souls to turn to Mormonism.

Kathleen, please go back and read your message as if you were a Hindu, a Muslim, a Buddhist, or a Native American. Tell me how all are saved by Christ when special sacraments are needed like baptism. Tell me how a devout Muslim is saved without admitting that Peter is the rock you speak of.

This is a consistent problem when individuals become critics of other religions; they are blind to their own beliefs and how they are viewed by outsiders. Those who belong to Christ forget to understand that there is one judge, God. We are not called to judge, we are called to carry our cross and follow. FOLLOW: F - the Faith to know that not only are we in God’s hands, but so are all other people on the earth. O - to Obey the two great commandments and love our God and others and evidence this love by our actions. L - to Live with a respect for all life regardless of where they are born or worship. L - to be lowly, the humble and servants of all. Our concern is not the acknowledgment of man, but the worship of our God. O - to Observe the teachings of our Savior in word and deed. W - to become one with the Word in mind and action. Christ, through the actions of the Holy Spirit will bring us into union with our God. We must learn to rejoice in his righteousness and Peace.

Lastly, I have concluded that it is absurd for anyone to level a claim of secrecy toward Mormons. Anyone with a computer can read every word of every temple action ever done. How is that supposed to be secret? Is is possible that we ourselves like to hold things sacred as personal experiences? Of course. Should we deny this same desire to others? Only if we have laid down our cross and cease to follow our Lord.

Let us be careful in our words and criticisms. Let us be slow to find fault with another. Let us live so that our example is a light to the world of the truth that we hold. The Lord calls to all and only those willing to follow will find Him.

 

[lax16]

LOL! Here is a link from the same YouTube channel which tells you why we need temples.

That is a lot! But to be brief, the October issue of the LDS magazine the Ensign is devoted to the temple. That is as good a place to start as any. (It is a large PDF version that may take a while to download; you may have to be patient.

I don’t need to enter a temple to tell me the answer to these questions.
This is weird actually. Thanks for posting this. I had no idea that Mormons actually believe they have to go to the temple to get answers.
Christians believe that Jesus Christ provides these answers to ALL - not just those carrying a temple recommend card.

Temples are places where our
questions about life receive the
answers of eternity
Was there ever a man or woman who,
in a time of quiet introspection, has not
pondered the solemn mysteries of life?
Has he or she not asked, “Where did
I come from? Why am I here? Where
am I going? What is my relationship
to my Maker? Will death rob me of the
treasured associations of life? What
of my family? Will there be another
existence after this, and, if so, will we
know one another there?”
The answers to these questions are
not found in the wisdom of the world.
They are found only in the revealed
word of God. Temples of The Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are
sacred structures in which these and
other eternal questions are answered.
Each is dedicated as a house of the
Lord, a place of holiness and peace set
apart from the world. There truths are
taught and ordinances are performed
that bring knowledge of things eternal
and motivate the participants to live
with an understanding of our divine
inheritance as children of God and an
awareness of our potential as eternal
beings.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

You are correct that evidently those ordinances weren’t done inside 'the temple during Old Testament times, but the font was used to cleanse the Levite priest before he entered the temple. Baptism for the dead would not have occurred during Old Testament times, because the Savior hadn’t yet visited the captives and proclaimed liberty and opened the prison doors for them. He did that during the time between the crucifixion and His resurrection.

I still do not see the connection between The Temple and Mormon temples.

Solomon’s temple would not have had the full implications of what it would have meant to have a “kingdom of priests” as God had originally intended for the children of Israel to be, but there are implications in the Jewish wedding ceremony that they had an understanding that that ceremony was extremely sacred and holy and was as though God were performing the ceremony in a holy place. (I’ll post a link that describes this in a post to follow.)

Parker - obviously marriage is considered sacred in Jewish tradition. Jewish weddings did not and do not occur in the Temple.
Why do you say that LDS temples are like The Temple??? Why do you insist that there are similarities between Jewish and Mormon rituals?

I doubt that you know the words that were spoken or all the specific duties that were performed, nor would we expect that the Jews were telling the outside world about those words or those sacred duties. There was “washing”. There was “anointing”. There were sacred, symbolic duties performed by those who had been specially called to perform those duties and who needed to be worthy before they were allowed to perform those duties. (I’m not saying that the same words or duties are reflected in an LDS temple, but the similarity is in that they are apart from the outside world, in a holy place, using ordinances that God revealed for His purposes, and also using ordinances that show a centrality of belief in the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah (even though the Jews didn’t understand that most of the time).

Of course I don’t know the words and duties performed and neither do you. If you do, please cite your source.
Parker, yes you have said that there is a connection between LDS temples and the OT and it isn’t just that it is a holy place apart from the world.
Please, once again, provide a connection between LDS temple rituals and the Old and or New Testaments.
I’ll post a link after this to an article about the ceremony. (Yours may have been different.)

I will post the link after this that shows the use of those words, which were symbolic of the nature of the marriage covenant. The tabernacle was specifically made to be the “house of the Lord” while the children of Israel were being led by God in the wilderness, and even guided their route by means of the pillar of fire and the cloud that were associated symbols.

Parker I know about the nature of the Jewish marriage covenant. The tabernacle is able to be moved. You said that the tabernacle is the same as a temple. Are you retracting that now?

Solomon built the temple so that there would be a holy place where the ark of the covenant could be and it would be the “house of the Lord” and be a place of holiness separate and apart from the outside world, with much symbolism therein.

The Holy Bible, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Book of Mormon.

Are these the sacred writings that are kept in an LDS temple? I can buy these at WalMart!

I can see why you would draw these conclusions using the Old Testament, but if one realizes that the temple really did function as the “new tabernacle” which was the “house of the Lord” and housed the Ark of the Covenant as the tabernacle had previously functioned, then one can follow the symbolism as Isaiah describes a latter-day “tabernacle” that is a “refuge from storm”, and from heat, and as Isaiah wrote about “stakes of Zion” and about a “holy people” or a “holy nation” and about Gentiles being a part of that in the latter days and uses the phrase, “who hath begotten me these?”. He also indicates that the “earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the seas”–so the symbolism of a holy people expands beyond the borders of Jerusalem and eventually expands throughout the earth.

Okay, here we go again. Why the elaborate temples? Why the secret rituals? Why only for a select few?
There is nothing Christian about a ritual that is only for a select few. That absolutely flies in the face of what Jesus was here to tell us! So, basically, you are saying that God is back to choosing a select group of people to do His will in the temple?

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

Here is a link briefly describing the traditional Jewish wedding, including the use of the words “king” and “queen” (the word “queen” is also used in the Jewish Encyclopedia article, along with the explanation that the couple are to become like Abraham with posterity numbering “as the stars”):

judaism.about.com/od/weddings/a/all_marriage.htm

I read it. I have no idea how this connects to LDS temple wedding sealings.
To say that a Jewish couple is to be blessed with children has nothing to do with being a king and queen.
This language is not used at a traditional Jewish wedding ceremony. I have been to one Jewish wedding performed by an Orthodox rabbi but the couple was not Orthodox and I don’t remember these specific words at all.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

Here follows part of the Jewish Encyclopedia article about the Shekinah (anyone who reads this should do so with reverence, please, as this is discussing a sacred subject):

jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=588&letter=S

SHEKINAH  

By : Kaufmann Kohler   Ludwig Blau

ARTICLE HEADINGS:
In the Targumim.
In the Apocrypha and New Testament.
Nature of the Shekinah.
Appearances of the Shekinah.
Those on Whom the Shekinah Rested.
To Whom Does the Shekinah Appear?
The Shekinah as Light.

In the Targumim.

The majestic presence or manifestation of God which has descended to “dwell” among men. Like Memra (= “word”; “logos”) and “Yeḳara” (i.e., “Kabod” = “glory”), the term was used by the Rabbis in place of “God” where the anthropomorphic expressions of the Bible were no longer regarded as proper (see Anthropomorphism). The word itself is taken from such passages as speak of God dwelling either in the Tabernacle or among the people of Israel (see Ex. xxv. 8, xxix. 45-46; Num. v. 3, xxxv. 34; I Kings vi. 13; Ezek. xliii. 9; Zech. ii. 14 [A. V. 10]). Occasionally the name of God is spoken of as descending (Deut. xii. 11; xiv. 23; xvi. 6, 11; xxvi. 2; Neh. i. 9). It is especially said that God dwells in Jerusalem (Zech. viii. 3; Ps. cxxxv. 21; I Chron. xxiii. 25), on Mount Zion (Isa. viii. 18; Joel iv. [A. V. iii.] 17, 21; Ps. xv. 1, lxxiv. 2), and in the Temple itself (Ezek. xliii. 7). Allusion is made also to “him that dwelt in the bush” (Deut. xxxiii. 16, ); and it is said that “the glory of the Lord abode upon Mount Sinai” (Ex. xxiv. 16). The term “Shekinah,” which is Hebrew, whereas “Memra” and “Yeḳara” are Aramaic, took the place of the latter two in Talmudand Midrash, and thus absorbed the meaning which they have in the Targum, where they almost exclusively occur. Nevertheless the word “Shekinah” occurs most frequently in the Aramaic versions, since they were intended for the people and were actually read to them, and since precautions had therefore to be taken against possible misunderstandings in regard to the conception of God. The word “dwell” in the Hebrew text is accordingly rendered in the Targumim by the phrase “let the Shekinah rest” (e.g., Ex. xxv. 8; xxix. 45, 46; Num. v. 3, xxxv. 34; Deut. xxxii. 10 [R. V. “he compassed him about”]; Ps. lxxiv. 2). Onḳelos translates “Elohim” in Gen. ix. 27 by “Shekinah”; and wherever the person, the dwelling, or the remoteness of God is mentioned, he paraphrases by the same word (Num. xiv. 14, 42; xvi. 3; xxxv. 34; Deut. i. 42, iii. 24, iv. 39, vi. 15, vii. 21, xxiii. 16, xxxi. 17); so too, wherever the Name occurs, he substitutes for it the term “Shekinah” (Deut. xii. 5, 11, 21), and “presence” or “face” is translated the same way (Ex. xxxiii. 14-15; Num. vi. 25; Deut. xxxi. 17-18; see Maybaum, “Anthropomorphien,” etc., pp. 52-54). Targ. pseudo-Jonathan and Yerushalmi adopt a like system, as in Ps. xvi. 8, lxxxix. 47, Lam. ii. 19, and Cant. vi. 1 (ib. pp. 64 et seq.). Where the text states that God dwells in the Temple above the cherubim (as in Hab. ii. 20; I Sam. iv. 4; II Sam. vi. 2; I Kings viii. 12, 13; xiv. 21; Ps. lxxiv. 2), or that God has been seen (Isa. vi. 6 et seq.; Ex. iii. 6; Ezek. i. 1; Lev. ix. 4), the Yerushalmi has “Shekinah”; and even where it describes God as abiding in heaven, the same word is used (Isa. xxxiii. 5; Deut. iii. 24, iv. 39). This statement holds true also of allusions to His remoteness or to the hiding of His face (Hos. v. 6; Isa. viii. 17, xlv. 15; Hastings, “Dict. Bible,” iv. 488b). The Temple is called the “house of the Shekinah” (Targ. Onḳ. to Deut. xii. 5; Ps. xlix. 15, cviii. 8); and the term likewise occurs in connection with “glory” (“yeḳara”; Ruth ii. 12; Cant. iii. 6, iv. 6, v. 6; Ps. xliv. 25, lxviii. 19, cxv. 16; Jer. xix. 18) and with “holiness” (Cant. i. 10, ii. 2, iii. 2, vi. 1; Ps. lxxiv. 12, lxxxvi. 3).

Parker - You’ve lost me on this one.

 

[MtnDwellar]

I did a quick internet search. There are about 40 non Catholic churches, temples, mosques, synagogues, etc. in Rome. What’s the big deal???

 

[lax16]

I did a quick internet search. There are about 40 non Catholic churches, temples, mosques, synagogues, etc. in Rome. What’s the big deal???

Are any of these churches/mosques/synagogues sending out missionaries by the tens of thousands to tell people that the Catholic Church is wrong?

 

[ParkerD]

Parker - You’ve lost me on this one.

Lax16,

It appears to me that I’ve “lost you” on every one of the items I mentioned. It’s OK. I didn’t mean there was going to be such an obvious tie-in that everyone in the world would be able to see the tie-in. The Shekinah is a symbolic word that ties to the temple.

Here is one more attempt for you to pick up a symbolism about the tabernacle (which the Jewish Encyclopedia repeatedly ties to Solomon’s temple, and rightly so):

"Symbolic Meaning.

It is probable that the characteristic features of the place of worship in the Old Testament bore, in addition to their outward purpose, an inner relationship to religious ideas. The following may be considered the chief of these: the opening of the gate toward the east had reference to the rising of the sun (comp. Isa. xli. 1 et seq.); the distinction between the holy place and the most holy place corresponded to the distinction between heaven and the innermost heaven (“sheme ha-shamayim”; I Kings viii. 27, etc.); and the forecourt, according to Isa. lxvi. 1, symbolized the earth. This interpretation was suggested by Josephus (l.c. iii. 6. § 4), and has been developed chiefly by Bähr (“Symbolik des Mosaischen Kultus,” 1837).E. C. E. K.

Read more: jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=3&letter=T#ixzz13qccs8WG

 

[Timothy17]

Timothy, since you don’t know me personally making a statement like that without actual knowledge is completely out of line and uncalled for. Please do not challenge my religious convictions.

Peace.

I know that you zealousy defend a man-made religion that beguiles and defiles all who enter its ritual perversions. Do I need to know what day of the week you do your laundry on to have permission to criticize that ? Knowing or not knowing you “personally” does not change the facts you have given and demonstrated of yourself here on this forum, which is zealously, religiously pro-Mason, a brotherhood of debauchery. Should I not criticize Mafia members who defend themselves by saying they are Catholics ? Does not the fact they are Mafia members cast doubt on their Christianity, regardless of their personal “religious convictions” ? Does their assertion of religiosity permit them a license to behave scandalously ? Masonic oaths are well known and readily available, we can therefore criticize them for what they are as such, though I don’t believe even the Mob requires its new members to bind themselves so wholly to its membership and leadership as the Masonic fraternity does, which given the danger and criminal nature of the former causes one to wonder why or how a supposedly peace-loving and civil society, such as the Masons praise and profess themselves to be, feels need to tie such a tight cable-toe around the bodies of its membership.

Pax,
Tim

 

[KathleenGee]

JeanMichael, Mountain Dweller,

JeanMichael, you are contradicting yourself in regards to my position.

The construct of Mormonism according to Joseph Smith is the ‘Roman Church’ is an abomination, and that our faith is corrupt. The reasoning is that there were no successors after the last apostle. Caput. To not acknowledge the mindset behind placing a grandiose building out of context of the architecture throughout Italy is reflective of its conviction against my faith.

I would advise those not understanding the significance to first get an objective history of Christianity. Secondly, Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. Our liturgy, both Jewish and Christian, was given to us by God…we are to worship Him the way He wants, not something man made.

The Mass was essentially set in its present form in Rome in 155 AD, only 60 years after the death of the last apostle. The Mormons have the right to appoint successors. But so do we. The apostles appointed their successors – the bishops and presbyters – through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said He would never leave us. He promised us His Comforter, the Holy Spirit. The work of the Church – through men of clay – the rock of Peter – is the Holy Spirit sustained by the Resurrected Lord through His Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. The fullness of our worship is public and intended for all mankind. Anyone can walk into any Catholic Church and hear our teachings and witness the meeting of the divine with humanity.

In Mormonism, if you were prior a Christian, you will be taught certain things. Then after you are initiated into their religion, you will then hear a different story. A well educated woman on CAF told us her experience. Switch and bait.

Then there is the issue that you cannot apply critical thinking and reasoning to the manner how Mormons believe like they do. You cannot speak about Mary, the Mother of Jesus in your daily faith walk. You will hear about the Roman Catholic Church as the abomination behind closed doors, but before the public you will learn to be very nice and pleasant.

I was very open to the Mormon belief system until I visited a Deseret book store to find out more about their beliefs. I came to the ‘Pearl of Great Price’…an old version and came across a kind of language you see in America from the 1830’s. Then I picked up Joseph Smith’s doctrine’s, and saw his convictions about the Catholic Church and how Mormonism is based on it.

In the Mormon temple you cannot. As a non-Mormon you will not be allowed to enter. The inside of the temple from what we are told is very, very different than the interior of a Catholic church.

The Italian culture is very much family oriented. if a couple is sealed, their family will not be allowed to attend the wedding. The Mormons baptize people by proxy against their will. They will get hold of public records and begin baptizing the Italian population into Mormonism. They have done it to John Paul II, from what I was told…Of course, their baptisms are null.

So back to the construct of Mormonism, its construct is directly prejudiced against my religion and it is a great feat that the Italian seculars allowed them 15 acres at the border of Rome to build a unique site not fitting with the Italian culture.

So don’t jump in without checking out your facts. The Catholic Church is the true Church instituted by Christ. It has the fullness of revelation of Who Christ is, what appropriate liturgy is that God accepts. It took many years to compile the books of the Bible, and many people involved.

Catholicism is the universal gathering of believers, no secrets. Our God does not play cat and mouse games with us. He does not set aside an exclusive set of people vs another in His name. Too many times the Word of God is used as a weapon to divide people, instead to unite and illuminate us to become better people.

To use God to invalidate the 2,000 year old history of salvation history of a class of people is no act of intelligent and educated reasoning.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

It appears to me that I’ve “lost you” on every one of the items I mentioned. It’s OK. I didn’t mean there was going to be such an obvious tie-in that everyone in the world would be able to see the tie-in. The Shekinah is a symbolic word that ties to the temple.

Here is one more attempt for you to pick up a symbolism about the tabernacle (which the Jewish Encyclopedia repeatedly ties to Solomon’s temple, and rightly so):

"Symbolic Meaning.

It is probable that the characteristic features of the place of worship in the Old Testament bore, in addition to their outward purpose, an inner relationship to religious ideas. The following may be considered the chief of these: the opening of the gate toward the east had reference to the rising of the sun (comp. Isa. xli. 1 et seq.); the distinction between the holy place and the most holy place corresponded to the distinction between heaven and the innermost heaven (“sheme ha-shamayim”; I Kings viii. 27, etc.); and the forecourt, according to Isa. lxvi. 1, symbolized the earth. This interpretation was suggested by Josephus (l.c. iii. 6. § 4), and has been developed chiefly by Bähr (“Symbolik des Mosaischen Kultus,” 1837).E. C. E. K.

Read more: jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=3&letter=T#ixzz13qccs8WG

Parker - The reason “you lost me” is because you are attempting to make connections to the LDS temples and The Temple of the OT and you have been unable to do so. To say that a religious and sacred building is a place to find God is not unique to just Jews and Mormons so I don’t know why you keep posting these definitions from the Jewish encylopedia?

It boils down to this: What rituals that are performed in the Mormon temples are from OT traditions and rituals?
How do marriage sealings and baptisms for the dead tie in with The Temple and the ancient rituals that occurred in them?
If a temple is meant to be a special place to be with God why can’t everyone come?
What relevance do LDS temples have to non-members?
Why would anyone want to see a huge building all lit up that they can’t go into?
(Maybe it is meant to remind Mormons to do their duty, but for the rest of us, and we are obviously the majority, it has no relevance. It is so strange to see these elaborate buildings that so few utilize).
Please provide examples of why an LDS temple is relevant for all of God’s people.
Please provide NT references where it would show that Jesus wants us to be part of an exclusive club.

You’ve lost me, allright, in how anyone would promote a religion that doesn’t welcome everyone as Jesus taught us to do.

 

[Timothy17]

Lax16,

It appears to me that I’ve “lost you” on every one of the items I mentioned. It’s OK. I didn’t mean there was going to be such an obvious tie-in that everyone in the world would be able to see the tie-in. The Shekinah is a symbolic word that ties to the temple.

Here is one more attempt for you to pick up a symbolism about the tabernacle (which the Jewish Encyclopedia repeatedly ties to Solomon’s temple, and rightly so):

"Symbolic Meaning.

It is probable that the characteristic features of the place of worship in the Old Testament bore, in addition to their outward purpose, an inner relationship to religious ideas. The following may be considered the chief of these: the opening of the gate toward the east had reference to the rising of the sun (comp. Isa. xli. 1 et seq.); the distinction between the holy place and the most holy place corresponded to the distinction between heaven and the innermost heaven (“sheme ha-shamayim”; I Kings viii. 27, etc.); and the forecourt, according to Isa. lxvi. 1, symbolized the earth. This interpretation was suggested by Josephus (l.c. iii. 6. § 4), and has been developed chiefly by Bähr (“Symbolik des Mosaischen Kultus,” 1837).E. C. E. K.

Read more: jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=3&letter=T#ixzz13qccs8WG

Parker, for Heaven’s sake, do you not see the incredulity of blabbering on about the Shekinah, which thing is the bases of a Masonic book that uses this event as a means to trace the source and root of their clandestine worship, while constantly attacking Christianity ? You are an extremely skilled apologist, I would think you’d have the right sense to pick and choose your ammunitions more scrupulously, as at present you are only digging your cause a wide grave into which it could easily be tapped over in to.

The Shekinah light entered the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, and this wondrous event signified God’s faithfulness to His people, and their religion, which He made for them. In Christianity, this is better and perfectly fulfilled in the Holy Spirit entering into and guiding His Temple ; that is, the Church, His Body, which the Temple in Jerusalem signified. The 2,000 year history and continuity of the Catholic Church likewise demonstrates its fulfillment of and in the New and Eternal Covenant, established by Christ Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, by the power of the Holy Spirit, &cet., (and by this “et cetera,” I mean the history of the Church from them and then, down to this present day, unbroken, undefiled ; the Bride awaiting Her Lord’s return).

Pax,
Tim

 

[KathleenGee]

JeanMichael,

The Catholic Church was instituted by God through Jesus Christ.

The Mormon Church was instituted by Joseph Smith in the 1800’s.

The Catholic Church has the fullness of revelation and grace of Jesus Christ. The sacraments are visible signs of Christ present among us. Baptism incorporates us into the Mystical Body of Christ.

The Catholic Church expounded at the Second Vatican Council that essentially all people who seek good and treat their neighbor as themselves are walking on the road to salvation. To read the Catholic Church as the sole means of salvation is to read that profession in a literalist, fundamentalist way.

Reading the construct of Mormonism, which is at heart anti-Catholic and anti-Christian in general by Joseph Smith is not the construct of Catholicism.

The construct of Catholicism is the life, teachings, miracles, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, – not the condemnation of a group or class or religion of people in this world.

 

[flyonthewall]

JeanMichael,

The Catholic Church was instituted by God through Jesus Christ.

The Mormon Church was instituted by Joseph Smith in the 1800’s.

The Catholic Church has the fullness of revelation and grace of Jesus Christ. The sacraments are visible signs of Christ present among us. Baptism incorporates us into the Mystical Body of Christ.

The Catholic Church expounded at the Second Vatican Council that essentially all people who seek good and treat their neighbor as themselves are walking on the road to salvation. To read the Catholic Church as the sole means of salvation is to read that profession in a literalist, fundamentalist way.

Reading the construct of Mormonism, which is at heart anti-Catholic and anti-Christian in general by Joseph Smith is not the construct of Catholicism.

Kathleen, I can understand your position that you believe the Catholic church is correct, and that is as it should be…you should believe your faith is correct because why would you want to belong to a religion that you feel is not correct.
However, using the same logic as you do here, in believing the Catholic church is correct, you are “anti” every other church on the face of the earth.
Joseph Smith was not anti-Catholic, but simply “pro-God”.
If you read what is written, it is the creeds that were labeled as incorrect.
Now you can make all the claims you want about how you do not believe the LDS church is true or that it is false, and that it is not even Christian, but know that there are groups out there that consider the Catholic church as non-Christian, and a cult. Keep in mind that the whole of protestantism exists because of the belief that the Catholic church was wrong or went astray.
The LDS church has never, ever set out to deny any religion their profession of faith, as you do. In fact, we have taught that if you are not LDS, and are Baptist, then be the best Baptist you can be…which also holds to Catholics too…be the best Catholic you can be.

The construct of Catholicism is the life, teachings, miracles, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, – not the condemnation of a group or class or religion of people in this world.

The LDS church has never condemned a group, class or religion. If you think proclaiming a belief that we have the fullness of the gospel while others do not is a condemnation of others, then Catholicism is just as guilty as any.

 

[flyonthewall]

Parker - The reason “you lost me” is because you are attempting to make connections to the LDS temples and The Temple of the OT and you have been unable to do so. To say that a religious and sacred building is a place to find God is not unique to just Jews and Mormons so I don’t know why you keep posting these definitions from the Jewish encylopedia?

I can’t speak for Parker, and I may not have the answers to all the questions, but I’ll see what I can answer

It boils down to this: What rituals that are performed in the Mormon temples are from OT traditions and rituals?
How do marriage sealings and baptisms for the dead tie in with The Temple and the ancient rituals that occurred in them?

I don’t know…but then I’m not a student of OT traditions.

If a temple is meant to be a special place to be with God why can’t everyone come?

For the same reason the children of Israel could not approach the mountain while Moses communed with God.

What relevance do LDS temples have to non-members?

What significance did Solomon’s temple have for not Israelites? What significance do Catholic cathedrals have for non-Catholics?

Why would anyone want to see a huge building all lit up that they can’t go into?

What does this have to do with anything?

(Maybe it is meant to remind Mormons to do their duty, but for the rest of us, and we are obviously the majority, it has no relevance. It is so strange to see these elaborate buildings that so few utilize).
Please provide examples of why an LDS temple is relevant for all of God’s people.

For the same reason the temple was relevant for all God’s people in the OT times

Please provide NT references where it would show that Jesus wants us to be part of an exclusive club.

Matt. 13: 9, 15-16, 43
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
• • •
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
• • •
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker - The reason “you lost me” is because you are attempting to make connections to the LDS temples and The Temple of the OT and you have been unable to do so. (1) To say that a religious and sacred building is a place to find God is not unique to just Jews and Mormons so I don’t know why you keep posting these definitions from the Jewish encylopedia?

It boils down to this: (2) What rituals that are performed in the Mormon temples are from OT traditions and rituals?
(3) How do marriage sealings and baptisms for the dead tie in with The Temple and the ancient rituals that occurred in them?
(4) If a temple is meant to be a special place to be with God why can’t everyone come?
(5) What relevance do LDS temples have to non-members?
(6) Why would anyone want to see a huge building all lit up that they can’t go into?

(Maybe it is meant to remind Mormons to do their duty, but for the rest of us, and we are obviously the majority, it has no relevance. It is so strange to see these elaborate buildings that so few utilize).
(7) Please provide examples of why an LDS temple is relevant for all of God’s people.
(8) Please provide NT references where it would show that Jesus wants us to be part of an exclusive club.

(9) You’ve lost me, allright, in how anyone would promote a religion that doesn’t welcome everyone as Jesus taught us to do.

Lax16,

I’ve been busy all day, but have a moment now to answer these questions.

First, thanks, FlyontheWall, for giving great insights.

(1) It’s not a matter of “finding God”–I was trying to show that the Jews had places and symbolism that actually had to do with being in the “presence of God”, and that meant leaving the “world” and the “things of the world” behind, and going into a unique and special place that was sanctified and had been accepted by God as “His house” (truly). Granted, it was symbolic, but that was the symbolism.

(2) I’ve already noted “washing” and “anointing”. You acknowledged there were twelve oxen involving a large font, also. The law of sacrifice was fulfilled through Christ’s atonement and resurrection, but there is a new law of sacrifice, also, involving a broken heart and a contrite spirit and covenant making.

(3) Not directly, but indirectly through the symbolism of the gathering of the twelve tribes of Israel (note the twelve oxen bearing the font) and through a parallel symbolism of marriage in a “holy place” which the Jews treated differently than do the LDS, but there is a parallel nonetheless. (As I indicated before, they would not have had baptism for the dead in Old Testament times.) (The temple is the LDS “holy place”.)

(4) You are familiar with the idea of “worthiness” and of “standards for participation”. I remember one Catholic post in this forum where that particular person was somewhat questioning about why he or she couldn’t partake of the Eucharist (I don’t know the details why.) I would think that a person familiar with the tabernacle and the temple in the Old Testament, and familiar with Matthew 22:11-14 (about the man without a “wedding garment” trying to enter the “marriage feast”), would understand that there are standards of worthiness involved in entering into a “holy place” that is dedicated as “the house of the Lord”. (One can certainly commune with God and thus “be with God” outside of temples, even outside of churches–in one’s home, in the mountains, or in any quiet place.) So a temple is a different kind of place than a place to “commune with God” only.

(5) Some non-LDS use the temple grounds and backdrop for picture taking since they are nice, garden-like places and feel “reverent”. Some non-LDS enjoy seeing the buildings just as a sort of “lifting” of their vision heavenward (or so I have been told by a few). But certainly other buildings can do those things also.

(6) Yes, that would be frustrating. That is one reason for the open houses. There is one in Hawaii going on presently, I believe, due to a remodeling and hence the need for a re-dedication coming up in the future. After the temple is dedicated, the worthiness issue becomes absolutely the paramount question.

(7) This moves into the use of the “sealing power”, and the ordinances involving sealing families together to their ancestral families in an unbroken line. God revealed that this sealing power was in a major way for that particular purpose, and it will be for all of those who want to have “sealing” relationships with their extended ancestral family and their marriage. It is not going to be an “exclusive club”, at all–it will involve millions or billions of people who so choose.

(8) Matthew 22:11-14.

(9) It is a case of " precept upon precept, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." (Isaiah 28:10) (It is a case of graduated learning experiences in this life.) That learning process never stops–not for those who enter the LDS temples, and not for anyone else who is learning gospel truths and applying them in their lives. There will always be something more to learn and to gain a greater understanding about. Jesus taught this principle often. One enters into a gate, commences on a path, then keeps on moving along that path and it is an uphill (because one is learning as they go) path. The entering in is for anyone, as you are aware–and I’m not talking about some exclusive entry for LDS–I am trying to communicate that every person who seeks to please God is going to be moving along an upward path and be seeking His guidance as they follow the path they feel “inspired” and “happiest” in following. So that is not exclusive at all.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

I’ve been busy all day, but have a moment now to answer these questions.

Happy Halloween Parker - I am responding to your posts as I am giving out candy!

(1) It’s not a matter of “finding God”–I was trying to show that the Jews had places and symbolism that actually had to do with being in the “presence of God”, and that meant leaving the “world” and the “things of the world” behind, and going into a unique and special place that was sanctified and had been accepted by God as “His house” (truly). Granted, it was symbolic, but that was the symbolism.

Of course I understand this. Jesus lives at our Churches.

(2) I’ve already noted “washing” and “anointing”. You acknowledged there were twelve oxen involving a large font, also. The law of sacrifice was fulfilled through Christ’s atonement and resurrection, but there is a new law of sacrifice, also, involving a broken heart and a contrite spirit and covenant making.

How does this tie in to LDS temple rituals exactly?

(3) Not directly, but indirectly through the symbolism of the gathering of the twelve tribes of Israel (note the twelve oxen bearing the font) and through a parallel symbolism of marriage in a “holy place” which the Jews treated differently than do the LDS, but there is a parallel nonetheless. (As I indicated before, they would not have had baptism for the dead in Old Testament times.) (The temple is the LDS “holy place”.)

Yes, I understand marriage in a holy place. Catholic churches and synagogues are holy places. But they are not temples. There is only one Temple.
I feel as if Mormons have somewhat hijacked the Jewish Temple and somehow tried to make it theirs, then somehow call it Christian. I really don’t get it.

(4) You are familiar with the idea of “worthiness” and of “standards for participation”. I remember one Catholic post in this forum where that particular person was somewhat questioning about why he or she couldn’t partake of the Eucharist (I don’t know the details why.) I would think that a person familiar with the tabernacle and the temple in the Old Testament, and familiar with Matthew 22:11-14 (about the man without a “wedding garment” trying to enter the “marriage feast”), would understand that there are standards of worthiness involved in entering into a “holy place” that is dedicated as “the house of the Lord”. (One can certainly commune with God and thus “be with God” outside of temples, even outside of churches–in one’s home, in the mountains, or in any quiet place.) So a temple is a different kind of place than a place to “commune with God” only.

Parker - Entering a Catholic church and partaking of the Eucharist are two different things. All are welcome. There are no secret handshakes.
No, I do not understand keeping someone out of a holy place because of unworthiness. I am sure there are instances when a person is a threat to the safety of others…other than that I don’t believe for one second that God would keep anyone out of His home.

(5) Some non-LDS use the temple grounds and backdrop for picture taking since they are nice, garden-like places and feel “reverent”. Some non-LDS enjoy seeing the buildings just as a sort of “lifting” of their vision heavenward (or so I have been told by a few). But certainly other buildings can do those things also.

I absolutely believe it is to draw people in to try and convert them.

(6) Yes, that would be frustrating. That is one reason for the open houses. There is one in Hawaii going on presently, I believe, due to a remodeling and hence the need for a re-dedication coming up in the future. After the temple is dedicated, the worthiness issue becomes absolutely the paramount question.

Who decides that?

(7) This moves into the use of the “sealing power”, and the ordinances involving sealing families together to their ancestral families in an unbroken line. God revealed that this sealing power was in a major way for that particular purpose, and it will be for all of those who want to have “sealing” relationships with their extended ancestral family and their marriage. It is not going to be an “exclusive club”, at all–it will involve millions or billions of people who so choose.

When did God reveal this and to whom?

(8) Matthew 22:11-14.

So, Mormons decide in this life who is worthy and who is not?
I thought only God can judge.

(9) It is a case of " precept upon precept, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." (Isaiah 28:10) (It is a case of graduated learning experiences in this life.) That learning process never stops–not for those who enter the LDS temples, and not for anyone else who is learning gospel truths and applying them in their lives. There will always be something more to learn and to gain a greater understanding about. Jesus taught this principle often. One enters into a gate, commences on a path, then keeps on moving along that path and it is an uphill (because one is learning as they go) path. The entering in is for anyone, as you are aware–and I’m not talking about some exclusive entry for LDS–I am trying to communicate that every person who seeks to please God is going to be moving along an upward path and be seeking His guidance as they follow the path they feel “inspired” and “happiest” in following. So that is not exclusive at all.

How many good decent people have been turned away from a family member’s temple wedding because the Mormon church told them they weren’t good enough to attend?

 

[zaffiroborant]

If you read what is written, it is the creeds that were labeled as incorrect.

I think it is your statement here that is incorrect, because according to LDS.org…

Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof

As you can see the word “incorrect” is not in there at all. It says the creeds are an abomination and that those who profess them are corrupt. Some where in the world at this very moment there are missionaries teaching people that their beliefs are an abomination though I notice that the words (from lds.org) “those professors were all corrupt” were not included in your Preach My Gospel manual. Counterproductive to insult the person in the first lesson I guess.