Mormon Worldview

[Bubba_Switzler]

The LDS way isnt the answer…

I think we’re all agreed that following LDS policy, in every detail, isn’t the answer.

The question is whether Catholics can learn anything from LDS on welfare apart from this exclusive policy.

 

[Marie5890]

You are correct on all points but missing the forest of the trees.

Caesar uses coercion to collect taxes. Many Catholic charities have, in modern times, subcontracted with the state to provide service paid from funds obtained by such coercion. Caesar is now, in many cases, excluding the Church from such participation. (It’s not at all clear why that should be considered coercion so much as simply changing the rules.)

By comparison, the LDS does to rely on funding from taxes but rather from member tithes.

It remains to be seen how Catholic charities will respond to this situation. But one obvious solution would be for Catholics to fund Catholic charities from donations, alone.

My understanding is that the tithes do not go to the welfare system…

The tithing fund the universities,stakes, wards, missions, keep the temples going, built a mall in SLC, etc etc

The welfare system is on the fasting donations.

BUT the REAL reality is, dont really know. The LDS church never discloses it’s financial status, not even to its members. there is no fiscial transparency in the LDS church

 

[Janderich]

Just another point of clarification. The LDS church has at least two areas that deal with welfare.

There is the church welfare system which is for members of the LDS church. As Marie pointed out food is primarily offered to those who are active members of the church. Self reliance is a key point and those who receive welfare are often asked to assist at the same facilities that package the food.

Another arm of welfare deals with Humanitarian Aid. Humanitarian aid primarily helps those who are not members of the church. These projects are funded through donations from church members and to my understanding are separate from tithing and fast offering funds. The aid focuses on natural disaster assistance, clean water (for some areas of the world), and food production training among others.

 

[Marie5890]

Just another point of clarification. The LDS church has at least two areas that deal with welfare.

There is the church welfare system which is for members of the LDS church. As Marie pointed out food is primarily offered to those who are active members of the church. Self reliance is a key point and those who receive welfare are often asked to assist at the same facilities that package the food.

Another arm of welfare deals with Humanitarian Aid. Humanitarian aid primarily helps those who are not members of the church. These projects are funded through donations from church members and to my understanding are largely separate from tithing and fast offering funds. The aid focuses on natural disaster assistance, clean water (for some areas of the world), and food production training among others.

Thanks for the clarification Janderich.

The Humanitarian Aid is new to me. It didnt exist when I was LDS

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

My understanding is that the tithes do not go to the welfare system…

The tithing fund the universities,stakes, wards, missions, keep the temples going, built a mall in SLC, etc etc

The welfare system is on the fasting donations.

BUT the REAL reality is, dont really know. The LDS church never discloses it’s financial status, not even to its members. there is no fiscial transparency in the LDS church

Just another point of clarification. The LDS church has at least two areas that deal with welfare.

There is the church welfare system which is for members of the LDS church. As Marie pointed out food is primarily offered to those who are active members of the church. Self reliance is a key point and those who receive welfare are often asked to assist at the same facilities that package the food.

Another arm of welfare deals with Humanitarian Aid. Humanitarian aid primarily helps those who are not members of the church. These projects are funded through donations from church members and to my understanding are separate from tithing and fast offering funds. The aid focuses on natural disaster assistance, clean water (for some areas of the world), and food production training among others.

Humanitarian Aid vs. welfare is a useful distinction. (And, of course, Catholic collections similarly go to support administration and maintenance such as parish buildings and priest salaries.)

It would be interesting to see the numbers just to get a better idea.

 

[Jerusha]

It would be interesting to see the numbers just to get a better idea.

Good luck with that. CPA verified of their entire financial status and expenditures?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Good luck with that. CPA verified of their entire financial status and expenditures?

I’d be satisfied with some rough guestimates of income sources and expenditure categories.

It makes sense to distinguish nondiscrminatory humanitarian aid from member-based welfare, just as we distinguish family support form charity, but I think much depends on the relative numbers.

 

[Marie5890]

Humanitarian Aid vs. welfare is a useful distinction. (And, of course, Catholic collections similarly go to support administration and maintenance such as parish buildings and priest salaries.)

It would be interesting to see the numbers just to get a better idea.

You will never see them. The Mormon membership never gets to see them either.

They arent disclosed

 

[RebeccaJ]

You are correct on all points but missing the forest of the trees.

Caesar uses coercion to collect taxes. Many Catholic charities have, in modern times, subcontracted with the state to provide service paid from funds obtained by such coercion. Caesar is now, in many cases, excluding the Church from such participation. (It’s not at all clear why that should be considered coercion so much as simply changing the rules.)

By comparison, the LDS does to rely on funding from taxes but rather from member tithes.

It remains to be seen how Catholic charities will respond to this situation. But one obvious solution would be for Catholics to fund Catholic charities from donations, alone.

A major difference is, Mormon tithing is one of the requirements for their members to enter their temple. If a Mormon doesn’t receive their temple rites, they will not have the ability to become exalted.

As for the difference between salvation and exaltation. Mormon belief is that Jesus atoned for all sin, for everyone. This life is for them a test, that they believe they agreed to in a pre-existing life, to see if they can do what is necessary in order to become gods/goddesses. Paying 10% is one of the requirements towards being made divine.

Exaltation is central to the Mormon world view. Everything they do is for this goal.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Also, there are a few books that delve into the Mormon worldview. “Mormonism and the Magic Worldview” and a newer one just out, “In Heaven As It Is On Eath”. This newest explores what the author calls “holy dying”’, which speaks to the Mormon world view of seeing what exists as earthly organizations, continuing after death for those who have past the test and achieved everything required in order to live forever as gods and goddesses, in familial units.

 

[mtolympus]

What is the “comprehensive worldview offered by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”?

This is an interesting and thought provoking question. What is the “comprehensive worldview”? At least part of this worldview, I believe, is expressed in a modern document titled, “The Family - A Proclamation to the World.” (Google it) This proclamation was given in 1995 by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

This is the best I can offer to answer this question.

How does it compare/contrast with that of Catholicism?

I don’t think most Catholics will be in major disagreement with statement, except of course for our usual theological differences.

 

[1voice]

For starters, Mormonism denies that there is a transcendent creator God who is the maker of all things visible and invisible, as said in the Creed. Instead Mormonism posits an infinite succession of finite gods who were all originally men. Indeed, Mormonism rejects the idea of anything being created at all but instead posits that “the elements are eternal” (D&C 93:33), in other words, the now-discredited theory of the steady state universe.

There is no satisfactory explanation for the Big Bang in Mormonism. Nor is there a good Mormon explanation for democracy, as there is no Creator in Mormonism from who come inalienable rights, just a series of men who became better than you. Thus, both the Big Bang and the nature of democracy as stated in the Declaration of Independence are compelling arguments against Mormonism.

For that matter, it would be accurate to say that Mormonism is actually atheistic, because its definition of divinity does not posit a transcendent creator God.

But with that said, remember that many Mormons are actually “cafeteria LDS” and are somewhere between Mormonism and Christianity just as many self-proclaimed Catholics are somewhere between Catholicism and Protestantism. For that reason, they may or may not agree with Mormon cosmology, but as far as the official LDS doctrine goes, that’s how it is.

Just wow!!!
You posted some awesome thoughts.
How/why do you understand so much about Mormon thought.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t think most Catholics will be in major disagreement with statement, except of course for our usual theological differences.

There are very major disagreements.

 

[KathleenGee]

Very major…second that…even in regards to the existence and nature of God…two different worlds.

And there is more accountability in the Catholic Church. Confessions are kept secret…if people knew their dirty laundry would be made public, then they would never go and be healed.

I don’t think I could afford to be a Mormon. Having a family in these times is hard vs a single or affluent couple. The 10% tithing is mentioned twice in OT.

The tradition in the ancient Catholic church was that only those who are rich give…but only if they want…and they decide how much to give…but all exhorted to care for the widows and orphans…

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

This is an interesting and thought provoking question. What is the “comprehensive worldview”? At least part of this worldview, I believe, is expressed in a modern document titled, “The Family - A Proclamation to the World.” (Google it) This proclamation was given in 1995 by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Thank you, I will spend some time on this:

lds.org/family/proclamation?lang=eng

It does seem, from the discussion here, that “family” is the central idea of the Mormon worldview and certainly one that, at least to some extent, Catholics can appreciate.

 

[mtolympus]

I don’t think I could afford to be a Mormon. Having a family in these times is hard vs a single or affluent couple. The 10% tithing is mentioned twice in OT.

How many times should God tell us something? These two times are related and very important. The scripture in Genesis is refering to Jacob’s covenant with God in which tithing is part of the covenant. This is the covenant where God becomes the God of Jacob (Isreal.)

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

How many times should God tell us something?

What amazes me, frankly, is how often I hear objections to tithing from those who don’t bat an eyelash about paying far more than 10% in taxes. (Heck, in some places the sales tax alone is close to 10%.)

Today, people love Caesar and only barely tolerate the Church.

 

[CEM5]

Ok, this helps. And this is obviously a major distinction with Catholicism. Catholicism values marriage and family but it also values celibate vocations and, arguably, elevates the celibate and single (or married to the Church if you prefer), over the married couple.

But a family is more than a couple (and Mormons, as I mentioned, along with Catholics and Orthodox Jews are known for their big families). How does the couple relate to the family and how does the family relate to the “government of God”?

Not sure if anyone addressed this:

Mormons also believe that once they become god and goddess, they will have their own planet and forever beget “spirit children”…the “wife/goddess” has spirit children forever and ever.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Not sure if anyone addressed this:

Mormons also believe that once they become god and goddess, they will have their own planet and forever beget “spirit children”…the “wife/goddess” has spirit children forever and ever.

In an effort to be ecumenical and charitable I’ve intentionally avoided issues such as this. But, yeah.

 

[Khalid]

Well, I thought I was done with this subject but I came across this article in the WSJ:

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204792404577227173888056682.html

The impression one gets from this article, at least, is that the Mormons have created their own welfare and emergency response system, all on the foundation of Mormon tithing. Pretty impressive.

And while Catholic charities are quite active, they seem much more inclined to partnering with the state for funding than to rely on donations.

If this picture is accurate, it’s a pretty big difference.

It is no secret on this forum, as anyone who has seen my posts about Mormonism will attest, that I have a distaste for the LDS Church (probably due to my getting snookered in to it and resentment, as Mormons aren’t violent and are generally better people than most Christians), Mormon charity is strong, strong, strong, and social cohesion is even stronger.