Mormonism - A Catholic Perspective

[tqualey]

Hi, Dbaba,

Welcome to CAF.

How can drinking and gambling be such a sin, but to be pro life be left up to one discernment?

Now, that apparently got by me… where does this discernment come from?

Tom

 

[well2661]

Ok, I will have to say that I am looking for refutations from Mormons for my first argument; I would like to see what they say. The reason that I harp on the “great apostasy” is because I am looking for the lowest common denominator between the Catholic Church and the people of LDS. The “great apostasy” is the breaking point and if indeed it happened there should be historical proof left for us (I cannot buy the confessional history of angry protestants about the issue of the “great apostasy”). Also I don’t want to conduct any ad hominem attacks of the Mormons; I submit that we should attack their argument that they are the true church and not look at some of the stranger parts of Mormons as a reason that they crazy because if LDS is correct that there was a “great apostasy” and that christ left his church then it would follow that there would need to be a restoration (i.e. Joseph Smith).

 Now I'll put that all aside for now and ask the question about the very philosophy of God in regards to the LDS people (this is just critically observing LDS for now). Ok first off it I will have to comment on the issue of constant revelation; If there is a constant revelation by God to his prophet then the revelation that was given to the prophet would have to be equal divine revelation in the past (i.e. sacred scripture) . divine revelation must be equal, insofar as it is the absolute world of God. So the revelations of the "prophets" in LDS must be put on the same level as scripture. Ok now we just have to keep that in mind for now.

Now looking at the history of LDS it would say that polygamy was “revealed” to Joseph Smith, although some Mormons argue it was Brigham Young but that is irrelevant because they both received “God’s revelation,” and should be promoted and that it was part of divine law. In 1890 at the Manifesto written by Wilford Woodruff states that Christ visited him and told him to stop polygamy. This is important data to keep in mind also because this is both “Divine Revelation”

Ok looking at the very nature of God, we as catholics confess that God is perfect and absolute. Now what does that mean? well it means that God will not be arbitrary (i.e. he will not change his mind). This is pivotal that we know that God will not do this because if God is arbitrary there is nothing to stop him from being like "oops I was just kidding when I said Christ was my son." This might sound silly or goofy to some but if God is indeed arbitrary then there is nothing that cannot change and I took it to a logical extreme. 
  
 My point is that the God of LDS is, i would go so far as to say, arbitrary. we have seen that God changes his mind when it comes to polygamy and this is divine revelation. Now remember that divine revelation has to be equal, much like our Dogmas in the Catholic Church. So when I say that God could say "oops I was just kidding when I said Christ was my son," it is a real possibility in the future in the world of LDS. 
 
 I submit that if God was arbitrary like that I would go so far as to say that this God is evil and the most vile being to ever exist because our lives can be a lie. If God is arbitrary then he is no different then the gods of the ancient greek, insofar as God can say he will love us for ever but tomorrow reveals that he unloves mankind. We as mankind would be puppets on a string in a sick game of the divine. I would at that point become like Nietzsche and declare war on morality and become a crazy atheist. 

 Ok that last paragraph was a bit extreme but i am trying to stress my point that God's nature is pivotal to our faith. I am just going to say that I am good catholic, well as best I can be, as a disclaimer. I'm responding to Jerry Parker; it is true that Catholic seminaries are in rough shape now but they are improving day by day. The intellectual development there was quite, arguably, lackluster but it is recovering from the aftermath of V2. I just pray that there is a restoration of knowledge that traditional catholicism is catholicism, but I digress...

Kyrie eleison
-well2661

 

[Jerry_Parker]

BUF,

**You wrote: ** People throughout history, Joseph Smith being one of them, have tried to place themselves above Jesus Christ, saying that they have the word of eternal salvation. If what they say is true, then Christ’s coming has no meaning, and He did not know what He was talking about. When a group constantly contradict themselves and Christ’s teachings, I pray that people would wake up and surrender themselves to Christ and truly listen to His word and not what others “claim” to be His word. Don’t listen to others. Listen to God!​

Good words, those, as are others that you have placed on this C.A. forum! I could go on for hours about why a person should not be or become a L.D.S. Mormon (or even a R.L.D.S. Mormon of the far less gonzo Community of Christ). One thing that astonishes me is how so many otherwise intelligent and reasonably well educated people succomb to the cults, such as the L.D.S. Mormons, without looking into their truth claims from the angles both of their proponents and of their adversaries. This is utterly foolish and, if one stops to think about it, an excessive display of one’s gullibility, simply to accept, unexamined, what these missioners say. Such easy converts may “weigh the pros and cons” of matters about most else in their daily lives, but fall for the sects with incredible readiness.

I am not saying that some folks would refuse Mormonism if they did look into such things from more angles than simply that of the L.D.S. cult, for there are some examples of converts of high intellectual calibre who did just that and accepted the Mormon claims anyway; to underestimate a subtle and highly literate group like the Mormons is a deadly mistake! However, urge those whom you know who are looking into L.D.S. Mormonism or other cults (and the sects also) to approach the matter more even-handedly than all too frequently they tend to do. The literature about Mormonism, alike countering or defending its claims, is vast; there is no excuse to ignore it in all its variety!

Jerry Parker

 

[Dbaba]

Hi, Dbaba,

Welcome to CAF.

Now, that apparently got by me… where does this discernment come from?

Tom

Answer: The Church Handbook of Instructions, approved Sept 1998.

“Consult with church leader and receive God’s approval through prayer”
Source: Page # 482- The Essential Catholic Survival Guide
Catholic Answers

 

[Irish_Kathy]

This is something I found today regarding God’s Covenant with David – Psalm 89: 20-37

I have found David, my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him; so that my hand shall ever abide with him, my arm also shall strengthen him.

The Enemy shall not outwit him, the wicked shall not humble him.

I will crush his foes before him and strike down those who hate him.

My faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him, and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

I will set his hand on the sea and his right hand on the rivers.

He shall cry to me, “You are my Father my God, and the Rock of my salvation.”

And I will make him the first-born, the highest of the kings of the Earth.

My merciful love I will keep for him forever, and my covenant will stand firm for him.

I will establish his line forever and his throne is as the days of the heavens.

If his children forsake my law and do not walk according to my ordinances, if they violate my statutes and do not keep my commandments, then I will punish their transgression with the rod and their iniquity with scourges; but I will not remove from him my merciful love, or be false to my faithfulness.

I will not violate my covenant, or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Once for all I have sworn by my holiness; I will not lie to David.

His line shall endure FOREVER, his throne as long as the sun before me.

Like the moon it shall be established forever; it shall stand firm while the skies endure.

 

[tqualey]

Thanks, Dbaba,

Answer: The Church Handbook of Instructions, approved Sept 1998.

“Consult with church leader and receive God’s approval through prayer”
Source: Page # 482- The Essential Catholic Survival Guide
Catholic Answers

Here is an interesting link: catholic.com/library/Mormon_Stumpers.asp

Have a great day.

 

[Irish_Kathy]

Thanks, Dbaba,

Here is an interesting link: catholic.com/library/Mormon_Stumpers.asp

Have a great day.

Thanks Tom, I’ll have to take time to read this more throughly when I have a chance.

 

[jewells17]

What I don’t understand is how Mormon’s can believe that Jesus and Lucifer were bothers…one good and the other bad. I have read that and do not see how they can buy in to that.

 

[Irish_Kathy]

What I don’t understand is how Mormon’s can believe that Jesus and Lucifer were bothers…one good and the other bad. I have read that and do not see how they can buy in to that.

Hi Jewells The theory goes that we are all “supposedly” God’s “spirit children,” that includes all angels. So supposedly Satan is just as much God’s son as Jesus is. :dts:

 

[rinnie]

I met a mormon missionary once and asked him about the ‘Great Apostasy’ and noted to him there are not any writings of good christians or historians at the time lamenting the changes in doctrine or the influx
of pagans into the church. I made the point that this idea that the
church apostatsized was made during the reformation by people
at the time of the reformation and that these people made various time
arguments not from history(the writings of others from the time period), but from invention. At best this mormon missionary could say was that
Martin Luther said it as if he was implying the weight of great truth.

I understand what you are saying but there is one Problem. Luther did not bring down the Church. ITs still here. How do they explain that one?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rinnie,

Are you trying to confuse people with the facts…

I understand what you are saying but there is one Problem. Luther did not bring down the Church. ITs still here. How do they explain that one?

On a previous post about Lucifer and Christ being ‘spirit children’ does this sound like a modification of dualism - with their god of good and god of evil concept?

Tom

 

[BenjaminLumen]

My Theory , and it is a theory on Mormonism is as follow.

Mormonism is based out of Utah, now mining was a very important means of making a
living back in the 1800’s. Very important, and Mormons love to Mine they have the deepest
open pit Mine that I have ever seen in my life outside Salt Lake City, but…

It is my contention that a preacher who is mormon has the hardest time selling Jesus Christ in a Mining town to a Hardrock Miner in the 1800’s, with a whiskey in his hand and a Whore on his lap… I think that is where we run into many of Mormonisms curousities.

Well alot of this came west or the Carolines (Miners there also), Colorado, etc. Silver Mines, Coal Mines, etc. Those are hard people, so the preacher man had to get those persons to accept Jesus Christ, and he did so without them having to give up their Whore or Whiskey either one, trying to get a Miner to give up his whore and whiskey for Jesus Christ is not going to happen… So in Mormonism you do have, the Whiskey the Whore and Jesus Christ… And that is how that got there.

For instance you don’t go to hell for Adultery in Mormonism, whereas you do in. Because … All those Miners don’t like that either, no mormonism has been partially the result of , that is Jesus Christ with the hardest of the hard living back in those days.

It is so hard to go to hell in mormonism that you got to be really bad before a Mormon will tell you that you are going to hell.

No some preacher realized that trying to straighten out the people he was preaching to , just wasn’t going to happen, so Mormonism looses many of the tenants the other Christian Faiths still have. You are not going to get preachy with a hard rock miner in a saloon in 1880’s Colorado or Utah , because he will kill you… So Those Preachers did the best they could and the Mormonism we know is the result. Those are some rough men in those Saloons in 1800’s.

So Mormons have multiple wives, Adultery can only exist if you are only allowed one wife, Mormons multiple-wives and all kinds of other stuff.

So that is my theory on how Mormonism came to be like it is,
I mean started out different to begin with, but where it was being preached, that is how
you ended up with multiple wives etc…

Benjamin

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Benjaumen Lumen,

**You wrote: ** [T]rying to get a Miner to give up his whore and whiskey for Jesus Christ is not going to happen… So in Mormonism you do have, the whiskey the whore and Jesus Christ… And that is how that got there… So Mormons have multiple wives, Adultery can only exist if you are only allowed one wife, Mormons [having] multiple-wives…​

You have quite the imagination! However, Mormonism always was very teetotalling, at least in principle. Well, “teetotalling” does not tell it all, for Joseph Smith Junior even claimed to have a revelation condemning the use of liquor and “hot drinks”, interpreted to be tea and coffee, although he and other early leaders of the cult enjoyed their booze despite those “prophetical” words. However, L.D.S. polytheistic and polygamous Mormonism made up for what it condemned in drinking by becoming a veritable sex and breeding cult, so you do have a point on that count! The principle and practice of polygamy (and even concubinage) probably attracted some guys, rough miners or others, to L.D.S. Mormonism and to early Utah, though R.L.D.S. trinitarian Mormonism “back east” in Missouri, Iowa, Illinois, and in other R.L.D.S. pockets rejected plural marriages.

My own maternal L.D.S. grandpa from Utah, who died in the early 1960s (essentially from drinking too much!) was married 22 times, according to my dear departed mother’s count, and that was long after L.D.S. Mormonism officially had rejected the practice (but not the doctrine) of plural marriage. I think that you need to do some basic research on Mormonism before setting out to proselytise for our Holy Catholic Faith! I wish you the best in that!

Jerry Parker

 

[BenjaminLumen]

The word “Christian” appears in Acts, and the early followers of Christ were known as “followers of the Way” (you’ll see this in the Didache which shows in part how Christians of the first century lived). The word “Catholic” first appears in a letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch in or about 110 A.D. to distinguish Christ’s Church from heretical groups of the time. St. Ignatius’ letter indicates that by 110 A.D., the original Christian Church was already well known as the “Catholic Church”.

Not only that but who else was going to be teaching about Christ in any case, St Ingatius certianly talked about, Christianity didn’e go from Kentucky to Rome, it went from Isreal to Rome and that is the only place it could have come from… No see any person who argues that the Catholic Church is not the True Church of Christ wants me to believe that Peter and Paul came from Kentukcy and then traveling overland and by sea, went to Rome. Which is absurd…Depending upon which Church you are…

Mormon then Peter and Paul came from utah and traveling by various overland routes went to Rome…

All the necessary and sufficient items to give other Church’s the moniker of True Church of Christ haven’t taken place. So Therefore.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Benjamin Lumen,

*You wrote: ** * [Can]no[t] see any person who argues that the Catholic Church is not the True Church of Christ [and who] wants me to believe that Peter and Paul came from Kentucky and then travel[led] overland and by sea [and] went to Rome. Which is absurd. Depending upon which Church you are. Mormon then Peter and Paul came from Utah and travelling by various overland routes went to Rome [is preposterous].​

Whence on earth does all that lunacy about Kentucky come?!?!? I could not find on this C.A. Forum the contribution to which you seem to be replying, which if it does make such claims is totally loo-loo and crazed from both Christian and Mormon standpoints! The migration to Utah came after Joseph Smith’s assassination and Smith himself never envisioned Utah like that or, so far as I know, anything to do with what became L.D.S. Mormon Deseret under Brigham Young and then Utah. If anything, Smith placed Missouri and Illinois highest on the Mormon map of the U.S. of A., its states and territories, not on Kentucky, and not on Utah either! The Mormon Zion, in the thinking and eschatology of both major Mormon groups, is Independence, Missouri (the city in which the R.L.D.S. trinitarian Mormons have their church centre and beautifully lovely main temple). Of course, the L.D.S. and R.L.D.S., to varying degrees, are both false, and the Catholic Church is Christ’s True Church, but these Mormon groups do not teach this stuff about Kentucky!

Jerry Parker

 

[BenjaminLumen]

Benjaumen Lumen,

**You wrote: ** [T]rying to get a Miner to give up his whore and whiskey for Jesus Christ is not going to happen… So in Mormonism you do have, the whiskey the whore and Jesus Christ… And that is how that got there… So Mormons have multiple wives, Adultery can only exist if you are only allowed one wife, Mormons [having] multiple-wives…​

You have quite the imagination! However, Mormonism always was very teetotalling, at least in principle. Well, “teetotalling” does not tell it all, for Joseph Smith Junior even claimed to have a revelation condemning the use of liquor and “hot drinks”, interpreted to be tea and coffee, although he and other early leaders of the cult enjoyed their booze despite those “prophetical” words. However, L.D.S. polytheistic and polygamous Mormonism made up for what it condemned in drinking by becoming a veritable sex and breeding cult, so you do have a point on that count! The principle and practice of polygamy (and even concubinage) probably attracted some guys, rough miners or others, to L.D.S. Mormonism and to early Utah, though R.L.D.S. trinitarian Mormonism “back east” in Missouri, Iowa, Illinois, and in other R.L.D.S. pockets rejected plural marriages.

My own maternal L.D.S. grandpa from Utah, who died in the early 1960s (essentially from drinking too much!) was married 22 times, according to my dear departed mother’s count, and that was long after L.D.S. Mormonism officially had rejected the practice (but not the doctrine) of plural marriage. I think that you need to do some basic research on Mormonism before setting out to proselytise for our Holy Catholic Faith! I wish you the best in that!

Jerry Parker

What is wrong with my Take on Mormonism?? But I am interested in how proselytiseing for our Catholic Faith is somehow effect by my take on Mormonism?

 

[BenjaminLumen]

Benjamin Lumen,

*You wrote: ** * [Can]no[t] see any person who argues that the Catholic Church is not the True Church of Christ [and who] wants me to believe that Peter and Paul came from Kentucky and then travel[led] overland and by sea [and] went to Rome. Which is absurd. Depending upon which Church you are. Mormon then Peter and Paul came from Utah and travelling by various overland routes went to Rome [is preposterous].​

Whence on earth does all that lunacy about Kentucky come?!?!? I could not find on this C.A. Forum the contribution to which you seem to be replying, which if it does make such claims is totally loo-loo and crazed from both Christian and Mormon standpoints! The migration to Utah came after Joseph Smith’s assassination and Smith himself never envisioned Utah like that or, so far as I know, anything to do with what became L.D.S. Mormon Deseret under Brigham Young and then Utah. If anything, Smith placed Missouri and Illinois highest on the Mormon map of the U.S. of A., its states and territories, not on Kentucky, and not on Utah either! The Mormon Zion, in the thinking and eschatology of both major Mormon groups, is Independence, Missouri (the city in which the R.L.D.S. trinitarian Mormons have their church centre and beautifully lovely main temple). Of course, the L.D.S. and R.L.D.S., to varying degrees, are both false, and the Catholic Church is Christ’s True Church, but these Mormon groups do not teach this stuff about Kentucky!

Jerry Parker

\Excuse I was speaking from a more general point of view then even mormonism, I am talking about all such arguments about the Catholic Church’s being the One True Church of Christ. Well no I have seen arguments from various protestants and they try to deny the Catholic Church’s claim, my point here is that if you are to deny the Catholic Church’s claim on being the One True Church of Christ, then you have to have your Peter and Paul comming from anywhere but the vicinity of Roma and Greece and Isreal. See they must come from Kentucky, or Utah or someplace and then Go to Rome and for The Catholic Church not to be the One True Church of Christ? Do you kinda See?

Well it was quit evident that Peter and Paul both from Jesus’s Isreal, and then went to Rome and Low and Behold the catacombs show pshysical evidence of the Worship of one God as early as 100 something a scant 40 years after Peters and/or Paul arrival.
An inscriptions on tombs as Early as 300ad ended up in the Mass we have today.

There was only one Group of persons in the world preaching one God, those persons effects were seen in Rome very very early 100’s, Hence it is Judaism->Christ->Catholicism
it has to be. It is not Judaism->Christ->eastern seaboard of America->to Rome to Baptists or anything else… Well you have those individual sects arguing that Rome is not the True Church? And they have in their arguments gone so far as to declare the Peter didn’t go to Rome at all, That Peter is not barried beneath the Altar of St. Peters,etc

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Benjamin Lumen,

I do not question the motives that have inspired your postings to this C.A. foruj, but you do make some grievous errors about socio-historical aspects of L.D.S. Mormonism, to such an extent that Mormons simply would dismiss you as uninformed. The best advice that I can give you, to strengthen your understanding of Mormonism and to witness to the L.D.S. better, is to read up on the history of Mormonism from serious accounts of it, from various standpoints.

A fun way to start is to read an history of Mormonism from the R.L.D.S. Mormon standpoint! Inez Smith Davis wrote a marvellously readable account of Mormonism titled “The Story of the Church” which went through many editions, easily findable on Amazon.com or other national Amazon WWW sites. Of course, she defends the R.L.D.S. from what the L.D.S. have to say of Mormonism, but her account is a good one, and is especially gripping in her account of what happened after Joseph Smith’s assassination as the Mormons split ranks and many went to Utah, others remaining in the Midwest and spreading elsewhere.

You will find in the pages of Davis’ book, and in others, too, of course, that Kentucky had very little to do with early Mormonism. There are plenty of serious scholarly accounts of Mormon history, so I won’t bother to mention any in particular.

The L.D.S. Mormons in Utah really had little to do with the nominally Christian miners (and their whores) who poured into Utah in the latter part of the 19th century. Mostly, Mormons simply kept apart from them.

Anyway, good luck in doing such reading and to witnessing responsably, as a faithful and informed Catholic, to Mormons!

Pax, Jerry Parker

 

[bluelake]

My Theory , and it is a theory on Mormonism is as follow.

Mormonism is based out of Utah, now mining was a very important means of making a
living back in the 1800’s. Very important, and Mormons love to Mine they have the deepest
open pit Mine that I have ever seen in my life outside Salt Lake City, but…

It is my contention that a preacher who is mormon has the hardest time selling Jesus Christ in a Mining town to a Hardrock Miner in the 1800’s, with a whiskey in his hand and a Whore on his lap… I think that is where we run into many of Mormonisms curousities.

Well alot of this came west or the Carolines (Miners there also), Colorado, etc. Silver Mines, Coal Mines, etc. Those are hard people, so the preacher man had to get those persons to accept Jesus Christ, and he did so without them having to give up their Whore or Whiskey either one, trying to get a Miner to give up his whore and whiskey for Jesus Christ is not going to happen… So in Mormonism you do have, the Whiskey the Whore and Jesus Christ… And that is how that got there.

For instance you don’t go to hell for Adultery in Mormonism, whereas you do in. Because … All those Miners don’t like that either, no mormonism has been partially the result of , that is Jesus Christ with the hardest of the hard living back in those days.

It is so hard to go to hell in mormonism that you got to be really bad before a Mormon will tell you that you are going to hell.

No some preacher realized that trying to straighten out the people he was preaching to , just wasn’t going to happen, so Mormonism looses many of the tenants the other Christian Faiths still have. You are not going to get preachy with a hard rock miner in a saloon in 1880’s Colorado or Utah , because he will kill you… So Those Preachers did the best they could and the Mormonism we know is the result. Those are some rough men in those Saloons in 1800’s.

So Mormons have multiple wives, Adultery can only exist if you are only allowed one wife, Mormons multiple-wives and all kinds of other stuff.

So that is my theory on how Mormonism came to be like it is,
I mean started out different to begin with, but where it was being preached, that is how
you ended up with multiple wives etc…

Benjamin

Ben,
There are different factions of Mormonism. The most serious one is they deny the Trinity.
They have many ceremonial rites which do not stand up to the word of God. In fact, the Mormon bible is where their teachings come from.
You may want to look up their doctrine. Also pray for them.

God bless,
bluelake

 

[bluelake]

Could anyone share a little more info on this report or book that explains this mormon teachings and the wrong it brings?

nolo,
One book I can suggest is ‘The Kingdom of Cults’ by Walter Martin.
Another is written by a former Mormon, James Spenser. You can look him up on the net.

bluelake