Stephen168
New member
You said Christ was the creator, so are you saying that Christ and God are the same being as Christians believe. If not, what did Christ create?
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TexanKnight
Guest
No, they believe Michael and Jesus did.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth. (Abraham 4:1)
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truthsave
Guest
You see? It is the same story as with every mormon.
At the end you should only say,yes you are allowed to get in Celestial Kindom without getting married or without going to the temple.
You can be allowed to the Celestial Kindom without being married? Without going to a temple? without paying your dime? Without following the words of wisdom?
Partake is not a yes or no answer. Is a political answer.
It means you don’t want to give a straight answer.
Your yes be yes your no be no, the rest comes from the devil. Have you ever heard about it?
I didn’t say it.
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truthsave
Guest
Stephen168
New member
How does “pre-existent” matter defer from matter that exists?
“Everything” would include all matter.
What did Christ create?
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twopekinguys
Guest
Could you please show me an “official”, “doctrinal” statement that distinguishes between the two?
If you cannot, then your premise fails.
Also, if it is so “clear in Latter-day Saint theology”,(which doesn’t really appear to be the case) why isn’t there a simple change to the words. It shouldn’t be a problem since as I understand it, there have been several changes to the endowment ceremonies.
So what you’re basically saying here is that the mormon church won’t take “No!” for an answer, and you do it anyway.
i.e. I have been approached by missionaries, and even attended a mormon service. I heard what they had to say, and I flat out rejected it. So, after I am dead and gone, someone whom I don’t know, and is not related to submits my name (see Jewish controversy), I get proxy baptized, and look like a mormon. Even though I expressly
rejected it in this life.
Honestly, can you tell me with a straight face, you don’t see a problem with any of this?
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PumpkinSeed
Guest
I know that they follow the criminal false prophet Joseph Smith, but I did not know they were polytheistic.
And that last part, how they think Jesus came here to teach the Indians. Apparently according to Mormons, the Indians disobeyed God, so he turned their skin ‘red’.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Actually He turned them black, then lightened them up a bit later on…
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Miriam1947
Guest
I have a question about the atonement. Do Mormons believe only in atonement in the garden?
What is the significance of the crucifixion in Mormonism? Do Mormons believe in the resurrection of Jesus?
I keep reading all of these threads but I don’t have a take on these issues.
What is the significance of the crucifixion in Mormonism? Do Mormons believe in the resurrection of Jesus?
I keep reading all of these threads but I don’t have a take on these issues.
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Janderich
Guest
No. We believe that Christ brought about the atonement through his acts in Gethsemane, on the cross, and at the tomb. A number of authorities have indicated that he took upon himself the sins and weight of all men in the garden. However, his atonement was not complete until after death and the resurrection.
We believe it was essential that Christ die by the hands of wicked men. However, we place less importance on the cross itself. After death and before the resurrection we further believe he appeared unto spirits awaiting him in the spirit world.
We definitely believe in his resurrection. This consisted in his spirit reuniting with his body never to be separated again. We believe he had the ability to die from his mortal mother Mary and power over death given him from his immortal Father. Because of what he did we will all be likewise resurrected some day.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
Why would my premise fail when it isn’t a premise, but how The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints understands its own sacred practice.
mormonnewsroom.org/article/baptism-for-the-dead
mormonnewsroom.org/article/background-explanation-of-temple-baptism
lds.org/study/topics/baptisms-for-the-dead?lang=eng
lds.org/liahona/2001/01/the-redemption-of-the-dead-and-the-testimony-of-jesus?lang=eng
Etc
It actually is quite clear in Latter-day Saint theology, as the fact of free agency and the fact of proxy ordinances being efficacious only if the deceased soul chooses to accept or reject the ordinance is clearly stated. It is also clear because a Google search even turns up critical and anti-LDS websites that criticize the practice, yet indicate in their description of it that we believe that the deceased can either accept or reject the baptism. This really is not debatable. There is no need to change the words of the ordinance (for whom?) when those who are performing and participating in the ordinance know that what they are doing is offering the deceased a chance to accept, or reject, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
What I’m saying is what I have already said: “There are many factors involved with whether one actually had a “fair chance” of accepting or rejecting the baptism, as well as the fact that others may not be aware of whether someone did have that chance in this life. Thus, the practice is done in the hope that that deceased person will have the chance to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the next life, and if they already have that chance in this life (as judged by God), then the point is moot.” Also, no, you do not “look like a mormon”. The records clearly indicate that the proxy ordinance was performed after death, it does not add one to the membership of The Church of Jesus Christ (at least the earthly Church, since they can freely choose to accept the baptism in the next life), etc.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
Earlier in this very thread, I stated: “In Latter-day Saint Christianity, we believe that the Father is the Supreme Creator, and created through Jesus Christ, the Son (this belief is also found on LDS.org)”, which we believe is in harmony with Hebrews 1:2, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, etc. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ believe that the creation of everything was done in cooperation between the Father, Son, and the archangel Michael.
Stephen168
New member
What did Jesus Christ create?
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nevadairenaeus
Guest
It’s important to keep in mind that, with respect to God, ‘create’ in LDS theology does not mean creation from nothing. ‘Organize’ would be a better word since Mormons believe that the elements and intelligences are co-eternal with God. So Jesus, along with Michael (Adam) and presumably other pre-existent spirits (us?), organized the elements to create our Earth.
Stephen168
New member
So Mormons don’t believe Christ was the creator of the universe like Christians do.
The idea that something can do or be before it exists seems irrational to me. What is a Mormon thinking when they use the word pre-existent?
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Jerusha
Guest
My understanding is that it is material from previously destroyed planets, thus explaining the fossil record within the context of 6000-year Creationism. It is more science fiction than anything else.
It all boils down to God is not all-powerful.
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nevadairenaeus
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Mormons do not believe in creation ex nihilo. They view that doctrine as unbiblical and a late development of an apostate Christianity (2nd century AD). For them God is not the ultimate source of all being. God is rather more like a supreme being or the most powerful being that exists. So there is some aspect of ourselves and of the physical universe that exists independently of God and is co-eternal with God. God, as the supreme being, organizes and directs the universe, but did not create it in the sense that orthodox Christians use the word create.
From the Book of Abraham:
“And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.”
“if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal. And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.”
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Miriam1947
Guest
I have already accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ and I was baptized Catholic at Easter Vigil, 2008.
You are assuming that you have the Gospel of Jesus Christ but you do not. Because the Gospel of the Bible does not talk about proxy baptism for the dead as a way to change the final judgement.
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truthsave
Guest
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