Mormonism and Protestantism

[RebeccaJ]

James,
I can appreciate this stance. Indeed it is true. Either Joseph Smith was called of God or he was not. Either he had the First Vision or he did not. Either he is a prophet of God or one of the greatest liars in the world. He leaves very little room to believe anything else. For example he says:

Now, if he is a charlatan and a liar than I would expect people of religion to either not care or kindly point such things out. However, with some it is quite the opposite. Joseph once marveled at this very thing: To what end then is this anger. What is the point?

Many who have left Mormonism feel anger over being duped into believing lies, forking over tens of thousands of dollars that they’ll never get back, putting in thousands of hours of service that they’ll never get back.

Or, for holding onto those false teachings as truth, people are angry at themselves.

It only gets more difficult as you exit Mormonism. People who leave Mormonsim get falsely accused of everything by Mormons, from adultery to being offended, and everything else in between. Some Mrmons go so far as to try and steal children away from the parent who is leaving. A believing Mormon spouse seeks divorces, only because they think they need a Mormon spouse to get into heaven. The person leaving doesn’t need false promises to continue loving their spouse. Etc. etc. Some people lose everything.

It goes on and on, when a person’s world is shook at its core, and everything they once believed falls like a house of cards, it is difficult if not impossible to not be angry at the root cause. Which is, Joseph Smith and his lies that are still believed and are being perpetuated by Mormons.

It takes time to get through such a large change in your life. Most people eventually find peace and are able to let the anger go. Doesn’t mean that you lie silent while the lies continue on. You do what you can, oppose the lies, even at the risk of being ostersized even more from the Mormon community.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We continue to belabor the fine points of false religion. Joseph Smith Jr. is either a false prophet or a true prophet. If true, we should all be Mormon. They have the Gospel Restored. If false, everything since Joseph Smith Jr. is necessarily false. It matters not who may have reformed his prophesies. Falsehoods, regardless of restoration and reformation are still reformed lies built on lies. “A little leaven leavens the whole lump”.

We have difficulty with authenticity and verity. It is possible to be authentic and false.

Peace,

James Least

I think that most former Mrmons here would agree, that as long as Mormons are targeting Catholics and other Christans for conversion, there will be former Mormons to speak up in order that people aren’t being blindly led into the house of cards.

 

[Jerusha]

It takes time to get through such a large change in your life. Most people eventually find peace and are able to let the anger go.

And stuffed feeling often fester and grow. Only by expressing them in a rational and productive manner can they help US grow as individuals and a society.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Because those that did not have a chance to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ in this life will have that chance in the next before the Final Judgement. After death we are judged, however that is not the Final Judgement.

[BIBLEDRB]Heb 9:27[/BIBLEDRB]

Refutes your idea that ones judgement can change after death. We are judged at the moment of our death, there is no second chance.

Beyond that, even as a Mormon I thought it was a funny thing to believe that spirits just go on acting like they never died.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And stuffed feeling often fester and grow. Only by expressing them in a rational and productive manner can they help US grow as individuals and a society.

Yes, and I think saying or writing what is felt helps to flesh out the irratiomal. Hanging onto anger for years on end, is irrational. Just let it go.

 

[TexanKnight]

Many who have left Mormonism feel anger over being duped into believing lies, forking over tens of thousands of dollars that they’ll never get back, putting in thousands of hours of service that they’ll never get back.

Or, for holding onto those false teachings as truth, people are angry at themselves.

It only gets more difficult as you exit Mormonism. People who leave Mormonsim get falsely accused of everything by Mormons, from adultery to being offended, and everything else in between. Some Mrmons go so far as to try and steal children away from the parent who is leaving. A believing Mormon spouse seeks divorces, only because they think they need a Mormon spouse to get into heaven. The person leaving doesn’t need false promises to continue loving their spouse. Etc. etc. Some people lose everything.

It goes on and on, when a person’s world is shook at its core, and everything they once believed falls like a house of cards, it is difficult if not impossible to not be angry at the root cause. Which is, Joseph Smith and his lies that are still believed and are being perpetuated by Mormons.

It takes time to get through such a large change in your life. Most people eventually find peace and are able to let the anger go. Doesn’t mean that you lie silent while the lies continue on. You do what you can, oppose the lies, even at the risk of being ostersized even more from the Mormon community.

I hold no anger. In fact, I believe that, if not for the LDS Church, I might never have found the truth that is the Catholic Church.

See, many folks are easy for Satan…put drugs, alcohol, etc. in front of them and they fall. So, what does Satan use? Churches. A place to mislead good people.

I always wondered why the LDS hated the Catholic Church so much…then it hit…because the Catholic Church is true.

So, I have no anger. I have gratitude. And a desire to speak out against false churches.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Although there is NO better place to go then the good old RfM board when you are REALLY mad at the church on a certain day or week…its not very constructive but in some ways it feels cathartic. Then I can come back on here for my spirituality fix.

I spent a lot of time at RfM, ten years or so ago, when i was an atheist. Eventually, I came to view the atmosphere there as Mormon, still, in that the people there still think like Mormons. And the anger there that never ends as toxic. Its like a contest of who can relate the most anger inspiring experience. I don’t even read there any more.

It really is where I began to see my own atheism as having a weak foundation, because I could see that weak foundation in others. Mainly, that empirical view of the world. I was a right and proper nihilist. People claiming “truth” based on what is known and conveyed by the Ehrmans and Hitchens of the world, seemed as delusional to me as Mormonism.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I hold no anger. In fact, I believe that, if not for the LDS Church, I might never have found the truth that is the Catholic Church.

See, many folks are easy for Satan…put drugs, alcohol, etc. in front of them and they fall. So, what does Satan use? Churches. A place to mislead good people.

I always wondered why the LDS hated the Catholic Church so much…then it hit…because the Catholic Church is true.

So, I have no anger. I have gratitude. And a desire to speak out against false churches.

We are on the same page with this.

 

[twopekinguys]

I think that most former Mrmons here would agree, that as long as Mormons are targeting Catholics and other Christans for conversion, there will be former Mormons to speak up in order that people aren’t being blindly led into the house of cards.

Very well said.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Very well said.

thanks.

 

[Janderich]

Many who have left Mormonism feel anger over being duped into believing lies, forking over tens of thousands of dollars that they’ll never get back, putting in thousands of hours of service that they’ll never get back.

Or, for holding onto those false teachings as truth, people are angry at themselves.

It only gets more difficult as you exit Mormonism. People who leave Mormonism get falsely accused of everything by Mormons, from adultery to being offended, and everything else in between. Some Mrmons go so far as to try and steal children away from the parent who is leaving. A believing Mormon spouse seeks divorces, only because they think they need a Mormon spouse to get into heaven. The person leaving doesn’t need false promises to continue loving their spouse. Etc. etc. Some people lose everything.

It goes on and on, when a person’s world is shook at its core, and everything they once believed falls like a house of cards, it is difficult if not impossible to not be angry at the root cause. Which is, Joseph Smith and his lies that are still believed and are being perpetuated by Mormons.

It takes time to get through such a large change in your life. Most people eventually find peace and are able to let the anger go. Doesn’t mean that you lie silent while the lies continue on. You do what you can, oppose the lies, even at the risk of being ostersized even more from the Mormon community.

Rebecca,
I do see what a difficult situation a person can be placed in if they leave the Mormon church. And no doubt there are some members who approach a former member completely wrong which can damage long standing and significant relationships. Know that I respect you, and on this forum if I express a different belief it is not an attack on you. And I will extend that to any person with whom I disagree (even TexanKnight ).

By the way, I also honor any person who strives to follow the Sermon on the Mount and other teachings of Christ be the ex-Mormon, Catholic, or any other Christian religion.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
I do see what a difficult situation a person can be placed in if they leave the Mormon church. And no doubt there are some members who approach a former member completely wrong which can damage long standing and significant relationships. Know that I respect you, and on this forum if I express a different belief it is not an attack on you. And I will extend that to any person with whom I disagree (even TexanKnight ).

Thanks. I don’t view most discussion here as a personal attack. That isnt what I was saying. But I am well aware how Mormons view people who left, even if they put on a good approach.

But I do think Mormons view discussion as an attack on themselves. Believe or not I am sensitive to this. I try to have discussion, rather than just throwing rocks at people. Though there are times, where I lose patience and it is very easy to start flinging stones.

The seven deadly sins are portrayed in popular media fairly often. Very seldom are the opposite, seven virtues. The virtue that is the opposite of anger is patience.

The world needs more patience and less anger, of course, starting with myself.

 

[lax16]

Rebecca,
I do see what a difficult situation a person can be placed in if they leave the Mormon church. And no doubt there are **some members **who approach a former member completely wrong which can damage long standing and significant relationships. Know that I respect you, and on this forum if I express a different belief it is not an attack on you. And I will extend that to any person with whom I disagree (even TexanKnight ).

Janderich - Wasn’t this brought up in General Conference - to “rescue” the fallen away Mormons and bring them back - instead of demonizing them?

Some members? I think this how the younger people talk now-a-days. Not too long ago all Mormons shunned those who left and there was no two ways about it.

There is no doubt that there is a serious problem with LDS leaving the church “in droves” as stated in a recent article, and the former LDS historian stated that the LDS church hierarchy were coming up with a plan to “rescue” these people and try to bring them back. Our bishop friend said this was one of the themes of GC - rescue.

Anyway, this is a far cry from how Mormonism always has been. But, it is ever-changing.
I sat next to a woman on the plane a few days ago who said that their prophet told them to treat their neighbors with love and respect even if they are not Mormon. I wanted to tell her, and probably should have, that Jesus said that 2,000 years ago and it is in the Book of Leviticus from 4,000+ years ago and the LDS prophet isn’t saying anything prophetic. They are responding to the many complaints that the Mormons have always treated non-members with disrespect.

However, it is nice to hear you articulate your kind words to the former LDS here.

 

[LivingWaters7]

But yet, your church ignores those that have obviously rejected the mormon gospel.

Again, Holocaust Victims, Fr. Damien, Blessed JPII, and the list goes on and on.
(which you ignored from a previous post)

And again, we leave it up to God to determine who knew the Gospel of Jesus Christ and who accepts or rejects it. You cannot reject what you do not know. That is the point. We believe that we have the fullness of Truth, you (the Catholic you) believe you have the fullness of Truth, and would like all, whether Latter-day Saint, Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, etc. to come to the Truth. Latter-day Saints would like that as well, however we also believe that this can happen after death if the individual did not have a chance to accept that Truth. We perform the ordinances out of our love and desire for all to be saved and receive eternal life, and we leave it to our Father who art in Heaven to determine who has had that chance and when.

Again, it is mormon speak. The whole world uses one definition, but mormons decide that their new interpetation of a word(s) is the right one.

Again, I have heard the same thing said against Catholics and people of other faiths. So repeatedly stating “mormon speak” adds nothing.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Which adds nothing, as I of course could say the same.

 

[LivingWaters7]

They rarely go in voluntarily,

And you know that how?

they are called in for a “worthiness interview.”

Latter-day Saints believe that “worthiness”, essentially following the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ to the best of our ability, is important in many areas, such as callings and partaking of various sacred ordinances, such as the Sacrament (Communion) and Temple ordinances. Before one meets with their bishop, one should always examine themselves to determine their “worthiness”. Indeed, such examination should always occur before partaking of the Sacrament. When one meets with their bishop prior to receiving a temple recommend for example, they should determine for themselves whether they are following the Lord’s commandments and whether they really believe in the principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The bishop then asks them questions such as whether they believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, whether they believe in the Restoration, if they sustain Church leaders, if they follow the Law of Chastity, the Word of Wisdom, if they tithe, keep temple covenants, etc.

The bishop is not professionally trained in such matters.

And they were during New Testament times?

Often, the confidentiality of such an interview is not respected. Despite the fact that they confess their sins, they can have their TR cancelled, as a sign that God does not forgive them, and neither does the bishop.

That is illogical and is certainly not the case. As already mentioned, when someone confesses a serious sin to their bishop, the bishop guides them on the path to repentance and restitution. If they are already repentant and have made restitution, then there is no need to relinquish the temple recommend. If however the individual is still on the path of repentance, the bishop will provide guidance, and the temple recommend should be relinquished until they have dealt with the sin in question and are repentant. So no, you are clearly incorrect in saying that neither God nor the bishop forgives them. That would be like saying since a Catholic in a state of mortal sin is not supposed to partake of the Eucharist, God does not forgive them and neither does the priest. Both are illogical and certainly not the case. Even if someone is excommunicated, they can still be guided back into the Kingdom of God. I’ve seen this myself both in “real life” and online. Indeed, there is an ordinance known as “restoration of blessings” that restores saving ordinances such as baptism and confirmation that an excommunicated person participated in.

 

[LivingWaters7]

[BIBLEDRB]Heb 9:27[/BIBLEDRB]

Refutes your idea that ones judgement can change after death. We are judged at the moment of our death, there is no second chance.

Beyond that, even as a Mormon I thought it was a funny thing to believe that spirits just go on acting like they never died.

No it does not refute the Latter-day Saint belief that those that did not have a chance to accept the Gospel in this life can do so in the next. The verse states that after death comes judgement. Latter-day Saints fully agree with that (noting also that the Final Judgement specifically, which is what we were talking about, will occur at a later time). You are reading into the text more than what it says. The further question of course is what that judgement in Hebrews 9:27 entails.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No it does not refute the Latter-day Saint belief that those that did not have a chance to accept the Gospel in this life can do so in the next. The verse states that after death comes judgement. Latter-day Saints fully agree with that (noting also that the Final Judgement specifically, which is what we were talking about, will occur at a later time). You are reading into the text more than what it says. The further question of course is what that judgement in Hebrews 9:27 entails.

What is there to read. After deaht, we are judged.

It is Mormonism that has inserted a whole world in between death a judgement. That is what I would call adding to the text, explicitly.

 

[Jerusha]

It is Mormonism that has inserted a whole world inn between death a judgement.

Nothing more than reincarnation, although they refuse to call it that.

 

[LivingWaters7]

What is there to read. After deat, we are judged.

It is Mormonism that has inserted a whole world inn between death a judgement. That is what I would call adding to the text, explicitly.

Latter-day Saints believe that after death we are judged. This of course is not the Final Judgement (which is what you originally referenced).

Also, the verse makes no statement as to at what point after death we are judged. It only states that judgement occurs after death. Latter-day Saints agree that after death comes judgement. Proxy ordinances do not change the fact that after death comes judgement. Therefore, nothing is being read into the text.

 

[truthsave]

Again for people who reads here and don’t know I point out that when a marmon as LW7 states accepting the Gospel is talkin about the Joseph Smith version that mormons think is inspired.

As far as concern death and second chance.
Of course nobody can personally state and surely affirm that there is a second chance, but if there willbe a second chance all the importance of the prophets before Christ and of Christ himself would have been reduced by a very big margin since the act of faith would not be so faithful to the message given by Christ and by prophets before him because you will convert to Him** when you realize that the story you didn’t want to believe when you were alive is indeed true.**
Dying in this case would make much easier to accept to be saved from Christ and not really for faith. Not accepting it would put samebody in the same position of the devil (Christian devil not mormon’s one) that would refuse things he knows to be true.

Christ in this case shouldn’t have come and sacrify His life since things could be showed in the world after death by Him and by the situation in a way where choosing something with faith would be an act much less corageus and of reference between material matters and spiritual matters since after death I guess we would be much less material then when we were walking on this world.