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MelanieAnne
Guest
This is interesting. I thought McConkie’s views had been repudiated? Or is it just some of them?
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CatholicGuyNY
Guest
Well Mormons are wary of the book “Mormon Doctrine” because of various statements in it that they believe are not really “Mormon doctrine”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Doctrine_%28book%29
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Ahimsa
Guest
The practical effects of lacking forgiveness, though, is not eternal hell. So, I suppose, you could say that “there is no forgiveness to them through the Atonement”, but, for all practical purposes, as long as the person is not eternally damned, I suspect things will turn out OK.
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CatholicGuyNY
Guest
What does “damnation” mean in Mormonism? “Eternal Life” is only found in the Celestial Kingdom.
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Ahimsa
Guest
Celestial, Terrestial, and Telestial Kingdoms are all heavenly realms of immense bliss, with the Celestial being the realm closest to God, and Telestial, the furthest.
For the “really bad people”, there is the “utter darkness”, the realm of total damnation, everlasting punishment.
The word “damnation” usually implies everlasting punishment, which corresponds to the utter darkness in the LDS theology; though, one can also suffer temporary punishment, and end up eventually in the Telestial Kingdom.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
lol.I’ll let LDS define how they define “doctrine”. If their definition of “doctrine” develops and evolves over time, then I’ll chalk it up to “the development of the definition of doctrine”.
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CatholicGuyNY
Guest
I believe you mean “outer darkness”.
Yes, they are all realms of existence that are better than anything imaginable here. The problem is that only the Celestial Kingdom is regarded as “eternal life”, where eternal progression is possible. Since eternal progression/eternal life is not possible in the other kingdoms, these can be regarded as “damnation”.
From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. “Damnation”:
In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be stopped, blocked, or limited in one’s progress. Individuals are damned whenever they are prevented from reaching their full potential as children of God. Damnation is falling short of what one might have enjoyed if one had received and been faithful to the whole law of the gospel. In this sense, all who do not achieve the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom are damned, even though they are saved in some degree of glory. They are damned in the sense that they will not enjoy an eternal increase or the continuation of the family unit in eternity (D&C 132:4, 19).
Anyway, my original point is that forgiveness is simply not possible for those that murder. The Atonement of Jesus Christ does not cover the sin of murder, and murderers must atone for their sin before entry into the Telestial Kingdom.
In comparison, Catholicism teaches that a murderer can be forgiven of their sin, and that the Atonement of Jesus Christ does cover it.
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CatholicGuyNY
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LOL exactly. So now there’s no definition for what “doctrine” means, since the definition can develop.
Jello.
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CatholicGuyNY
Guest
Here’s something I’m not understanding from that article:
"True repentance must include restitution. There are sins for which restitution can be made, such as a theft, but then there are other sins that cannot yield to restitution, such as murder or adultery or incest."
As we’ve already seen, Mormonism teaches that because restitution is not possible for murder, it cannot be forgiven. But here, Kimball states that in addition to murder, restitution is not possible for adultery nor incest. But when I look at the Encyclopedia of Mormonism article on “Adultery”, it states:
"Because adultery or fornication breaks baptismal covenants and temple vows and may involve other members of the Church, penitent offenders are to confess the sin to their bishop or other Church authority, who may convene a disciplinary council. After prayerful deliberation, the council may excommunicate or disfellowship an adulterer, or implement some type of probation to help the offender repent. The excommunication of an adulterous priesthood leader is almost certain. A disciplinary council usually requires the adulterer to seek forgiveness from the betrayed spouse and from anyone drawn into the sin. By demonstrating an abhorrence for past sin and a commitment to righteousness, the repentant adulterer may, after an adequate period of probation, become fully reconciled to Christ, rebaptized, and reinstated in the Church and find forgiveness from God."
So, murder cannot be forgiven because restitution is not possible. Kimball states that restitution is not possible for adultery, however the EoM states that forgiveness from God can be had for adultery. :hypno:
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ParkerD
Guest
In answer to your questions that I numbered (1) and (2):
(1) Yes:
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Murderers (i.e. premeditated first degree murder) will be rescued from hell if they are repentant, but not in the sense of gaining eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom. They lost that opportunity by the choice they made to take the life of another of God’s children.
(2) I don’t know if by your example you meant “habitual lying” or “telling a single lie”. The degree of the sin would of course be dependent on the motives, the impact on others, and the intent of the person afterward if they attempted to right the wrong through telling those who were impacted by the sin, and asking their forgiveness.
If (in your example) you repented including asking the forgiveness of those impacted, and then much later your new episode of lying was with different people, then the steps one would follow to receive forgiveness for that new episode are the same as before.
If the new episode was with the same person as occurred the earlier time, then it can be assumed that the earlier repentance wasn’t “complete” in that the resolution to never commit the sin again was not kept. Sincere and complete repentance implies a real, heartfelt commitment to change behavior that really does result in a change in behavior–but that may take more than one episode where the person realizes they are going to need more help from the Savior than they may have earlier realized, so they “dig deeper” into their soul and make a deeper commitment to change behavior.
Sometimes, chronic behavioral issues such as habitual lying may require years of showing the behavior has been completely changed, such that the person knows deep inside that they have made that change totally and feel renewed, and thus their repentance is complete and they are right with God and others and they will know it in their heart.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
As I see it, it is impossible for us to RESTORE a person we have injured to their previous state. If we steal from someone we can make restitution by giving back the thing we stole but we can’t give them back the trust and security they had before we stole from them. And stealing is a rather straight forward matter of restitution or restoring the thing, not the person wronged. What about others listed before, incest, adultery or rape how in the world is it possible to make restitution or restoration for these things??? Isn’t the whole point here that we all victim and perpetrator can not “fix it” and so need Christ in order to restore and make restitution.
A side note if I could find The Miracle of Forgiveness at a local library (I can’t, I looked) I would read it because I’ve seen so many former LDS refer to it. Apparently it is a must read for a missionary, the synopsis from former members that I’ve read seems to be that it has “no miracles or forgiveness”. From the excerpts I’ve read I’d have to agree.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Poor Jello, always linked to such nonsense.
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SirThomasMore
Guest
since Sola Scriptura refers to the Bible, what the D&C says is irrelevant
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PaulDupre
Guest
Elder LeGrand Richards once said “To Latter-day Saints, salvation without exaltation is damnation.” This is actually an old LDS adage that I heard often during my membership and Elder Richards cites it as such.
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PaulDupre
Guest
It’s true, he should have titled the book “It’s a Miracle If You Get Forgiveness”.
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SirThomasMore
Guest
lol
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CatholicGuyNY
Guest
lol now I need to read this…
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ParkerD
Guest
CatholicGuyNY,
I thought I might as well post my response to your questions again, in case you hadn’t seen it.
Also, you may want to make a mental note that the words “the miracle of forgiveness” has to do with the atonement of Christ and the power of His redemption, which is the greatest miracle the world has ever known. The joy that comes into the hearts of those who have had their hearts changed through His atoning grace, is part of that miracle of forgiveness that is truly felt by them. My daughter (in Missouri) has recently taught several people whose lives have been changed through that kind of a “miracle”–and their friends have commented that they look like a totally new person. Some may choose not to call that a “miracle”–but I think it is greater than any outward manifestation, and can rightly be called a “miracle” in the life of such a person whose life will never be the same as before.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
Maybe I’ll write it down (I don’t remember anything unless I write it down) and when we go to the library next week I’ll search from there. I can get info from more libraries (universities and wider geographic area) at the library than I can at home.
I am interested in this book because as I’ve said many former missionaries have writte concerning it and most of the commentary I’ve read has been negative. Just as all the quotes I’ve read are like those posted here where forgiveness is a rather hopeless goal one may obtain after an almost impossible effort.
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catholic-rcia
Guest
Hi Parker, some thoughts
Father forgive them for they know not what they do. I believe this included murderers, if they were to accept His Mercy.
And maybe it has been already mentioned but what about Saint Paul who had Christians put to death? What about Saint Peter who denied Christ three time? Is this not a form of murder? And what about each of us, have any of us had or felt hate for another? Not until we can see each of us as murderers will we come to understand Gods Mercy for each of us. Judas had little faith in Gods Mercy, but there is even the possibility that he is with Jesus in Heaven. The thief on the cross helps to give all of us hope. I don’t believe its about the others, I believe its about you and I. He saved me a sinner, He saved me.
Father forgive them for they know not what they do. I believe this included murderers, if they were to accept His Mercy.
And maybe it has been already mentioned but what about Saint Paul who had Christians put to death? What about Saint Peter who denied Christ three time? Is this not a form of murder? And what about each of us, have any of us had or felt hate for another? Not until we can see each of us as murderers will we come to understand Gods Mercy for each of us. Judas had little faith in Gods Mercy, but there is even the possibility that he is with Jesus in Heaven. The thief on the cross helps to give all of us hope. I don’t believe its about the others, I believe its about you and I. He saved me a sinner, He saved me.
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