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surfinpure
Guest
THANK YOU so much for this post. I think all Catholics need to be better educated about what Mormonism really teaches, rather than simply knowing the classic generalizations.
- Status
THANK YOU so much for this post. I think all Catholics need to be better educated about what Mormonism really teaches, rather than simply knowing the classic generalizations.
S
Seeks_God
Guest
Melvin,
I can understand that you are conflicted with your sister. I would advise against it unless you are going into with the intention of showing her our faith. I actually admire the knowledge and charisma that most missionaries have, but if you are questioning your faith as it is, then you are playing with fire. I tried to see how a missionary would react once when I told him, “What would you say if I am questioning my beliefs?” His response was to pray about it and see if I feel the ‘burning in my chest’ over the scripture passage he read. If I was someone who was not stong in my faith and wanted to ‘feel’ like God wanted me, then I might be subject to a ‘burning feeling in my chest’.
I on the other hand really enjoy making missionaries squirm when they come and try to prove the ‘Church with Jesus’ name on it’, and then I am able to get them to question their faith. I find Mormonism an extremely interesting movement in American History. There is no doubt that they have been a prominant force in the development of Utah, as well as other areas. But the “True Church of Jesus Christ” I can not accept.
Unless you have truly found that Catholicism is the Church of Jesus Christ, then I would advise against getting into conversations with your sister.
SG
I can understand that you are conflicted with your sister. I would advise against it unless you are going into with the intention of showing her our faith. I actually admire the knowledge and charisma that most missionaries have, but if you are questioning your faith as it is, then you are playing with fire. I tried to see how a missionary would react once when I told him, “What would you say if I am questioning my beliefs?” His response was to pray about it and see if I feel the ‘burning in my chest’ over the scripture passage he read. If I was someone who was not stong in my faith and wanted to ‘feel’ like God wanted me, then I might be subject to a ‘burning feeling in my chest’.
I on the other hand really enjoy making missionaries squirm when they come and try to prove the ‘Church with Jesus’ name on it’, and then I am able to get them to question their faith. I find Mormonism an extremely interesting movement in American History. There is no doubt that they have been a prominant force in the development of Utah, as well as other areas. But the “True Church of Jesus Christ” I can not accept.
Unless you have truly found that Catholicism is the Church of Jesus Christ, then I would advise against getting into conversations with your sister.
SG
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petra
Guest
Mom of 5:
I am very familiar with the first quote and have pointed it out to Mormons. I think that quote is very telling of the Mormon view of Jesus-- that he was a mere man–no different than you or I, except that ostensibly he was “chosen” to be the Savior. Joseph Smith obviously fancied himself as being a greater prophet than Jesus.
Mormons use similar terminology as Christians, but the words have different meanings. Their Jesus is a different person that the Jesus we know. Their Jesus cannot save.
Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith
I am very familiar with the first quote and have pointed it out to Mormons. I think that quote is very telling of the Mormon view of Jesus-- that he was a mere man–no different than you or I, except that ostensibly he was “chosen” to be the Savior. Joseph Smith obviously fancied himself as being a greater prophet than Jesus.
Mormons use similar terminology as Christians, but the words have different meanings. Their Jesus is a different person that the Jesus we know. Their Jesus cannot save.
B
BDawg
Guest
Hi Mom of 5,
I’ll be frank. You are ignorant of Mormonism. Your knowledge about it seems to be derived from trashy anti-Mormon books and web sites designed to take various things our leaders have said out of context. Let me give some examples.
Mom of 5:
Mom of 5:
Mom of 5:
“And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.” (Exodus 7:1)
So all he was saying was that he had the same office as Moses. That is, he was a prophet. Big deal.
Mom of 5:
So all he was saying was that the Holy Ghost knows more than people in the world. Big Deal.
Whether you think Latter-day Saints fit your personal definition of “Christians,” or not, this sort of bigoted behavior is reprehensible. Yes, I said “bigoted.” Several of you are BIGOTS. Why? Because you spout off about other religions when really you have made no effort to really understand them. You have just read a few web sites in an effort to find fault.
What if I were to list a string of quotes like the following?
“The podestà or ruler (of the city) is hereby ordered to force all captured heretics to confess and accuse their accomplices by torture which will not imperil life or injure limb, just as thieves and robbers are forced to accuse their accomplices, and to confess their crimes; for these heretics are true thieves, murderers of souls, and robbers of the sacraments of God.”
Any guess who said this? Can you spell “Pope Innocent IV”? Source: Innocent IV, Bull Ad Extirpanda (A.D. 1252), quoted in Elphège Vacandard, The Inquisition: A Critical and Historical Study of the Coercive Power of the Church, trans. Bertrand L. Conway, 2nd ed. (New York: Longmans, Green, 1915), 108.
And yes, I did look this up in the book I just cited.
What if I listed a string of quotes like that, and asked “What do you think? Are Catholics Christian or a cult?” Would you think I was being fair, or being an ignorant bigot?
BDawg
I’ll be frank. You are ignorant of Mormonism. Your knowledge about it seems to be derived from trashy anti-Mormon books and web sites designed to take various things our leaders have said out of context. Let me give some examples.
Mom of 5:
How is Mormonism difficult to leave? All you have to do is write a letter demanding to be removed from the rolls. They might try to get you to talk about it, but you really don’t have to. Some people might even get mad at you about it, and you could lose friends. (People are people, after all.) How is this any different from leaving a strong Catholic family? I know a number of people who left Catholicism, and their families went into a tizzy.
Mom of 5:
So what’s your point? If you look at the quotation IN CONTEXT, J.S. was merely giving a rhetorical flourish in defiance of certain people who were falsely accusing him a various crimes. He said they would fail, and gave as evidence the fact that most of the LDS had stuck with him. If you were to actually look up the History of the Church and find the pages where this quotation is taken from, you would see this. I’m looking at it right now. But let’s be honest. You don’t have a copy of the History of the Church–you just culled the quote from one of your trashy web sites.
Mom of 5:
Hmmm. Don’t tell me you didn’t realize that this is an allusion to the Bible!
“And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.” (Exodus 7:1)
So all he was saying was that he had the same office as Moses. That is, he was a prophet. Big deal.
Mom of 5:
Oh, this is a classic. Once again, I am looking at this quotation in the very book you cite. And what do I find? The very next sentence says, “The Holy Ghost does, anyhow, and he is within me, and comprehends more than all the world; and I will associate myself with him.”
So all he was saying was that the Holy Ghost knows more than people in the world. Big Deal.
Whether you think Latter-day Saints fit your personal definition of “Christians,” or not, this sort of bigoted behavior is reprehensible. Yes, I said “bigoted.” Several of you are BIGOTS. Why? Because you spout off about other religions when really you have made no effort to really understand them. You have just read a few web sites in an effort to find fault.
What if I were to list a string of quotes like the following?
“The podestà or ruler (of the city) is hereby ordered to force all captured heretics to confess and accuse their accomplices by torture which will not imperil life or injure limb, just as thieves and robbers are forced to accuse their accomplices, and to confess their crimes; for these heretics are true thieves, murderers of souls, and robbers of the sacraments of God.”
Any guess who said this? Can you spell “Pope Innocent IV”? Source: Innocent IV, Bull Ad Extirpanda (A.D. 1252), quoted in Elphège Vacandard, The Inquisition: A Critical and Historical Study of the Coercive Power of the Church, trans. Bertrand L. Conway, 2nd ed. (New York: Longmans, Green, 1915), 108.
And yes, I did look this up in the book I just cited.
What if I listed a string of quotes like that, and asked “What do you think? Are Catholics Christian or a cult?” Would you think I was being fair, or being an ignorant bigot?
BDawg
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Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
i dont really like the term “cult”. but mormons being christians is also something i wouldnt be too quick to say either. i’ve spoken with quite a few mormons, as i was friends with them in high school, and read about the religion, so i think my assertion is pretty well-based.
aside from the points about the trinity and divinity of Jesus that have already been made further up in this thread, the big thing that does it for me is the belief that God has not always been God. and that we can become gods ourselves after we die. that is polytheistic, and christianity is anything but polytheistic. so in that respect, i dont think they could even be considered a judeo-christian religion.
but then you can also look at the fact that they believe in the trinity, however different that belief may be, and the God and Savior they believe in–though those beliefs may also be different–are both the same God and Savior of Christians. so then you could say they are at least somewhat christian. you can make a decent argument both ways, although personally i consider them to be “near-christian” and not technically christian.
aside from the points about the trinity and divinity of Jesus that have already been made further up in this thread, the big thing that does it for me is the belief that God has not always been God. and that we can become gods ourselves after we die. that is polytheistic, and christianity is anything but polytheistic. so in that respect, i dont think they could even be considered a judeo-christian religion.
but then you can also look at the fact that they believe in the trinity, however different that belief may be, and the God and Savior they believe in–though those beliefs may also be different–are both the same God and Savior of Christians. so then you could say they are at least somewhat christian. you can make a decent argument both ways, although personally i consider them to be “near-christian” and not technically christian.
M
Mom_of_5
Guest
BDawg,
You seem to forget something…my husband is ex-Mormon. We have a LARGE stash of LDS books…Many, many!!! My husband gave a lot away, but we kept several large boxes to give to his LDS relatives. I think we need to get rid of them since they are obviously “outdated”. Also, my info DOES come from my LDS friends and my husband, as well as LDS books. TRASHY?
There is only one way to initially learn about any religion… from the source. You have Never read anything anti-Catholic??? Your religion is based on rejecting the Catholic church. You wouldn’t have a religion if it were not for ours!!!
I was a "little upset " this morning. An old “friend” of my husband called. After I told him my hubby is out of town, he told me he was an old church friend and he wanted to talk to to my hubby. I remembered his name and asked if he was aware that my hubby is now Catholic. He became enraged!!!He said that my husband was always a procrastenator and never was a good member of the LDS church anyway. He told me to have my husband call him ASAP! My husband just called home. I told him about the call. He hasn’t seen the caller for many (25) years, but he has heard that he is very active in a ward close by. NO, he won’t call him back!
Yes, your church is hard to leave…my husband was bombarded for several years until he simply wrote his letter and told them not to contact him again. He got a letter back saying that they would not contact him “for now”. They have started again even though most know that he is Catholic.
When Catholics “leave” the church, they can return anytime they want. Go to the priest, recieve sacrament of penance, NO re-baptism or re-confirmation. In the LDS church, the person that leaves has to be re-baptized, go through all the ordinances again. In the letter sent to my husband, he was told that the “effects” of his baptism, priesthood, blessings, etc. were no longer valid. We can’t take away the effects of baptism, etc. in a christian church. What is done is done!!
BDawg, I have been on an LDS web several times. I have asked questions about the LDS faith. The answers seemed to be quite in keeping with the information in the books we have. One “gentleman” congratulated me for knowing so much about the LDS faith. His tone was far more gracious than yours!
You tell us not to be so enraged about your baptising our popes, etc… just let you do it… Why are you so enraged when we read your books and quote from your prophet?? Perhaps the problem is that the quotes from Joseph Smith are a real emabarrassment.
I have never been, nor will I ever be embarrassed by anything the founder of my church has said. Amen!
Love and Peace
You seem to forget something…my husband is ex-Mormon. We have a LARGE stash of LDS books…Many, many!!! My husband gave a lot away, but we kept several large boxes to give to his LDS relatives. I think we need to get rid of them since they are obviously “outdated”. Also, my info DOES come from my LDS friends and my husband, as well as LDS books. TRASHY?
There is only one way to initially learn about any religion… from the source. You have Never read anything anti-Catholic??? Your religion is based on rejecting the Catholic church. You wouldn’t have a religion if it were not for ours!!!
I was a "little upset " this morning. An old “friend” of my husband called. After I told him my hubby is out of town, he told me he was an old church friend and he wanted to talk to to my hubby. I remembered his name and asked if he was aware that my hubby is now Catholic. He became enraged!!!He said that my husband was always a procrastenator and never was a good member of the LDS church anyway. He told me to have my husband call him ASAP! My husband just called home. I told him about the call. He hasn’t seen the caller for many (25) years, but he has heard that he is very active in a ward close by. NO, he won’t call him back!
Yes, your church is hard to leave…my husband was bombarded for several years until he simply wrote his letter and told them not to contact him again. He got a letter back saying that they would not contact him “for now”. They have started again even though most know that he is Catholic.
When Catholics “leave” the church, they can return anytime they want. Go to the priest, recieve sacrament of penance, NO re-baptism or re-confirmation. In the LDS church, the person that leaves has to be re-baptized, go through all the ordinances again. In the letter sent to my husband, he was told that the “effects” of his baptism, priesthood, blessings, etc. were no longer valid. We can’t take away the effects of baptism, etc. in a christian church. What is done is done!!
BDawg, I have been on an LDS web several times. I have asked questions about the LDS faith. The answers seemed to be quite in keeping with the information in the books we have. One “gentleman” congratulated me for knowing so much about the LDS faith. His tone was far more gracious than yours!
You tell us not to be so enraged about your baptising our popes, etc… just let you do it… Why are you so enraged when we read your books and quote from your prophet?? Perhaps the problem is that the quotes from Joseph Smith are a real emabarrassment.
I have never been, nor will I ever be embarrassed by anything the founder of my church has said. Amen!
Love and Peace
D
Dph
Guest
cult
Z
Zooey
Guest
1st of all: to Ex mo’s wife & Mom of 5: Great posts! Great, great posts!
To the question, are Mormons Christian? No, they’re not. Many of them are very nice people. They live good family lives, espouse high moral standards, etc. But they are not Christians. Sorry, but they are not…I think other people here have done a better job than I ever could of explaining why this is true…
It comes down to one thing: they do not have the same Jesus.
And, yes, I have read Mormon lit, inc. BoM…You Mormons brought up the word
“trashy”?..Yeah, :yup: it is…
I will continue to pray for the many who are decieved by it.
God bless.
To the question, are Mormons Christian? No, they’re not. Many of them are very nice people. They live good family lives, espouse high moral standards, etc. But they are not Christians. Sorry, but they are not…I think other people here have done a better job than I ever could of explaining why this is true…
It comes down to one thing: they do not have the same Jesus.
And, yes, I have read Mormon lit, inc. BoM…You Mormons brought up the word
“trashy”?..Yeah, :yup: it is…I will continue to pray for the many who are decieved by it.
God bless.
S
Seeks_God
Guest
Here is a conundrum for us to paddle through: What if a Mormon had the ‘wrong’ impression of Jesus from a Mormon point of view? In other words, what if a Mormon didn’t understand their religious doctrines and actually did see the Trinity as one God? Would they be Christian then?
The reason I ask this is because, as a Catholic, I have had numerous well-meaning Protestants (and other non-Catholic Christians) explain to me that I am not Christian… As Catholics, many of us have encountered other Catholics that have doubted their beliefs and questioned the Divinity of Jesus. So, what if another faith had it wrong in their own faith and actually aligned themselves with Catholic beliefs and didn’t realize it?
(I kinda wanted to have fun with this a little…no offense meant to anyone)
SG
The reason I ask this is because, as a Catholic, I have had numerous well-meaning Protestants (and other non-Catholic Christians) explain to me that I am not Christian… As Catholics, many of us have encountered other Catholics that have doubted their beliefs and questioned the Divinity of Jesus. So, what if another faith had it wrong in their own faith and actually aligned themselves with Catholic beliefs and didn’t realize it?
(I kinda wanted to have fun with this a little…no offense meant to anyone)
SG
S
surfinpure
Guest
BDawg, I have a hard time believing that the LDS church is easy to leave. Particularly given how strenuous a task it is to get a Mormon to leave your HOUSE when you want him to! They don’t exactly like to take “no” for an answer.
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petra
Guest
Seeks God:
I think we should clarify that when we discuss the errancy of Mormonism, we are discussing the errancy of the -ism. We cannot know the hearts of people.
Interesting question. The Catholic Church does allow for the rare and remote possibility that there are those in other religions that, contrary to their own religious tradition, have a seed of faith in the true God. But I think this simply acknowleges that only God can judge someone’s heart. The fact that in a rare instance a Mormon or a Muslim or a Jew may be saved does not validate those religions. In fact, it is understood that for a Mormon, Muslim, or Jew to be saved, they would have to have a faith that is contrary to their religion.
I think we should clarify that when we discuss the errancy of Mormonism, we are discussing the errancy of the -ism. We cannot know the hearts of people.
S
Seeks_God
Guest
That was my point!
M
Melvin
Guest
Thank you for the response. I am more than sure of the Catholic Faith and the Church, it’s me I find lacking. I have not forgotten the admonition “Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.”
Perhaps the best course is to be an available witness when called upon. The Holy Spirit’s timing is much better than mine anyway.
Seeks God:
Perhaps the best course is to be an available witness when called upon. The Holy Spirit’s timing is much better than mine anyway.
Seeks God:
Z
Zooey
Guest
Thank you.
T
Tmaque
Guest
surf(name removed by moderator)ure:
As an ex-LDS that served an LDS mission I simply don’t agree that getting a missionary to leave is hard. Did you say “please leave”? That would have done it.
BDawg is correct. All one has to do is write a letter to his Bishop. He may or may not try to talk with you about it. But, you can simply deny the interview request and demand the removal.
As an ex-LDS that served an LDS mission I simply don’t agree that getting a missionary to leave is hard. Did you say “please leave”? That would have done it.
T
Tmaque
Guest
Are you saying that a person can’t be saved unless they have an understanding of, and faith in the Trinity? Are you saying that belief if the Trinity is enough without the sacraments? That’s not what the Church teaches. I can’t believe that God would condemn a good and faithful LDS person, or anyone else that truly followed their conscience. Why would God send a person to hell for doing what they thought was right? If God does that, then he makes us victims of circumstance, which is totally unfair and totally wrong. A person can’t help where they’re born, who their parents are, what they’re exposed to. An LDS or Muslim person raised in an actively religious family will very rarely even consider the possibility that their faith is wrong. It’s not their fault, but according to you, they’re probably going to hell even if they’ve been good people.
Another person, just by chance, gets born into a Catholic family, get exposed to the Church, and that person gets every opportunity for Heaven? I just don’t believe God is so heartless and cold.
T
Tmaque
Guest
Once again I find myself having to agree with BDawg. BDawg and I are supposed to be debating, not agreeing. But, he’s right. This whole thread is simply an opprtunity to demean. It serves no higher purpose. What good does it do to tell an LDS they’re not Christian? Is it charitable? St. Paul tells us that without charity our knowledge and faith mean nothing. I can think of nothing more un-charitable than to call a person that loves God and Jesus Christ a “non-Christian”.
When I was LDS I prayed to God and I believed in Jesus Christ. My perception of who Jesus Christ is, has slightly changed, that is true. But my relationship with him HAS NOT CHANGED! It’s the same Jesus I knew when I was LDS, so don’t tell me that I believed in a different Jesus back then.
As far as our relationship is concerned, he’s the same. I don’t relate to him differently now. I understand things about him differently, that’s all. I guess you all better start calling this active Catholic “non-Christian” now because there’s no disconnect in my heart between my LDS Jesus and my Catholic Jesus.
Has anyone else noticed that since this thread popped up all substantive discussion on matters of LDS faith and doctrine have stopped? Interesting. We just love labeling people don’t we?
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Seeks_God
Guest
I think ExMo & ExMo’s wife were addressing specific doctrinal matters of the LDS faith…
Besides, I think a Christian can still be flawed in their realization of Devine Revelation - Catholic, Lutheran, Adventist, LDS…whatever, all are subject to errors…
I think I remember something about NOT being perfect someplace…
P
petra
Guest
We can’t judge people’s hearts, and Catholic theology completey allows for the possibility that people in other religions may have a seed of faith that connects them with the true God. God is not heartless or cold. He is completely loving and just.
But that does not change the fact that Mormonism is a lie. It was invented by a 19th century con artist and its doctrines are spiritually deadly. It is imperative that Christians have an accurate understanding of what Mormonism is all about to safeguard themselves and to be equipped to help Mormons find the true Church.
B
BDawg
Guest
Thanks, Tmaque. You have restored my faith in the people on this forum.
I have a few more comments for Mom of 5, though. Mom, I wasn’t “enraged” at all, yesterday. I was having a great day then, and I’m having a great day now. I just have a thing for pointing out bigotry when I see it.
Your excuses for your post are ridiculous. The LDS Church is “hard to leave,” you say. Why? Because your husband had to actually write a letter to ask to cut off contact from the Church. How terrible! And then, several years later, some former acquaintance calls, finds out your husband converted to Catholicism, and is really concerned about your husband. While the way you describe the encounter does make it sound like the guy was quite rude, how is this some kind of big conspiracy to trap your husband? Just look at the Mormon threads on this forum. How many threads have started out with someone asking, “My friend/family member has joined the Mormons! What should I do?” Do all the Catholics here just say, “Hey, it’s his decision, so you shouldn’t even try to talk to him about it”? Oh, puhhhllllleeeaaasssseee!
Then you go on to say that the LDS Church is “hard to leave” because we require rebaptism for someone who has asked to be excommunicated. Sounds to me like the RCC is the one that is “hard to leave,” and “easy to get into.” In fact, what about that quotation from a Pope that I posted? Was the RCC “hard to leave” when they were advocating the torture of heretics? Was the RCC a “cult” back then?
Meanwhile, you didn’t address the fact that I showed that the quotations you used were taken out of context, except to claim that your info comes from LDS friends, your ex-LDS husband, and LDS books. Really? You just happened to be perusing the 8 volume “History of the Church” and “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith” when you came across those quotations, that just happen to be the same exact ones you find in every anti-LDS tract that is attempting to prove Joseph Smith was a megalomaniac? And you just happened to take them out of context in exactly the same way? Or, maybe you got these quotations from LDS friends, because I’m sure LDS people are constantly taking quotations such as these out of context to make Joseph Smith look bad.
Sorry, Mom of 5, but your post was irresponsible and bigoted, no matter what certain ignorant toadies might say to encourage you. If you doubt it, try looking up those quotations in your giant stack of LDS books.
BDawg
I have a few more comments for Mom of 5, though. Mom, I wasn’t “enraged” at all, yesterday. I was having a great day then, and I’m having a great day now. I just have a thing for pointing out bigotry when I see it.
Your excuses for your post are ridiculous. The LDS Church is “hard to leave,” you say. Why? Because your husband had to actually write a letter to ask to cut off contact from the Church. How terrible! And then, several years later, some former acquaintance calls, finds out your husband converted to Catholicism, and is really concerned about your husband. While the way you describe the encounter does make it sound like the guy was quite rude, how is this some kind of big conspiracy to trap your husband? Just look at the Mormon threads on this forum. How many threads have started out with someone asking, “My friend/family member has joined the Mormons! What should I do?” Do all the Catholics here just say, “Hey, it’s his decision, so you shouldn’t even try to talk to him about it”? Oh, puhhhllllleeeaaasssseee!
Then you go on to say that the LDS Church is “hard to leave” because we require rebaptism for someone who has asked to be excommunicated. Sounds to me like the RCC is the one that is “hard to leave,” and “easy to get into.” In fact, what about that quotation from a Pope that I posted? Was the RCC “hard to leave” when they were advocating the torture of heretics? Was the RCC a “cult” back then?
Meanwhile, you didn’t address the fact that I showed that the quotations you used were taken out of context, except to claim that your info comes from LDS friends, your ex-LDS husband, and LDS books. Really? You just happened to be perusing the 8 volume “History of the Church” and “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith” when you came across those quotations, that just happen to be the same exact ones you find in every anti-LDS tract that is attempting to prove Joseph Smith was a megalomaniac? And you just happened to take them out of context in exactly the same way? Or, maybe you got these quotations from LDS friends, because I’m sure LDS people are constantly taking quotations such as these out of context to make Joseph Smith look bad.
Sorry, Mom of 5, but your post was irresponsible and bigoted, no matter what certain ignorant toadies might say to encourage you. If you doubt it, try looking up those quotations in your giant stack of LDS books.
BDawg
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