Mormonism...Christian or Cult?

[petra]

Tmaque:

This whole thread is simply an opprtunity to demean. It serves no higher purpose. What good does it do to tell an LDS they’re not Christian? Is it charitable? St. Paul tells us that without charity our knowledge and faith mean nothing. I can think of nothing more un-charitable than to call a person that loves God and Jesus Christ a “non-Christian”.

When I was LDS I prayed to God and I believed in Jesus Christ. My perception of who Jesus Christ is, has slightly changed, that is true. But my relationship with him HAS NOT CHANGED! It’s the same Jesus I knew when I was LDS, so don’t tell me that I believed in a different Jesus back then.
As far as our relationship is concerned, he’s the same. I don’t relate to him differently now. I understand things about him differently, that’s all. I guess you all better start calling this active Catholic “non-Christian” now because there’s no disconnect in my heart between my LDS Jesus and my Catholic Jesus.

Has anyone else noticed that since this thread popped up all substantive discussion on matters of LDS faith and doctrine have stopped? Interesting. We just love labeling people don’t we?

Without love, we are just clanging cymbals. That is so true. But I haven’t seen anyone discuss the spirituality of any particular individual. The only mention of the spiritual condition of individuals has been to acknowledge that God is merciful and kind and the Catholic Church recognizes the possibility that some in other religions may have a saving faith. I hope you would agree that this has been charitable.

But the majority of this thread is dealing with the merits of the Mormon religion itself. From an apologetics standpoint, it is completely appropriate. It is a valid question to ask whether Mormonism is man-made or God-made.

 

[Vox_Borealis]

Tmaque:

This whole thread is simply an opprtunity to demean. It serves no higher purpose. What good does it do to tell an LDS they’re not Christian? Is it charitable? St. Paul tells us that without charity our knowledge and faith mean nothing. I can think of nothing more un-charitable than to call a person that loves God and Jesus Christ a “non-Christian”.

I think this is what this thread has become. The initial post posed a false (in my mind) dichotomy: mormanism, cult or christian. This naturally led to two discussions–is mormanism a cult, and is mormanism christian? Most of those posting dismissed the first question as unanswerable and perjorative.

However, the second question is interesting. I do not know what the absolute value or higher purpose is to labeling mormonism christian or not, but I do think teh question has merit. As I noted in my posts early in this thread, most christian denominations–that is, those denominations that are recognized universally or nearly universally as christian–deny that mormonism is a christian religion. They do so because whatever authoritative bodies or individuals these denominations possess have decided that the mormon underestanding of a number of theological issues, though using the same terminology, departs to too great a degree. On the other hand, LDS claims that it is christian and works very hard to promote this view.

As I noted before, ALL communities (and individuals within communities) place boundaries on membership, identity, and definition (we might call this internal definition); however, outside observers also impose definitions (let us call this external definition).

To an outside observer, there may be no substantive difference between anglicans and catholics. Or between catholics and mormons, if the observer focus on or emphasizes the importance of the figure of Jesus/Christ to each religion. This is in effect the position that the mormons=christians posts have made (I’m oversimplifying here). Ultimately, the person who posed the original post (and each one of us) will make up our own mind on the issue, with influence of evidence, our own reason, and sources of authority (including the teachings of whatever denomination one subscribes to).

I follow the authority of my church, and I am in agreement with the majority of christian denominations, that mormonism deviates too far from christian teachings, especially with regard to the trinity–here I tend to emphasize the nicene creed as the base-line christian criteria–to be called christian. However, I am not going to get too worked up about it if individuals disagree, just as there is really not too much I can do about it if an individual decides he or she will adopt an identity no matter how much the individual’s characterics or beliefs may deviate from that groups definition and boundaries of identity.

 

[stonewall26]

They are cult!!!

 

[searcher]

As a young teenager I accepted Jesus as my Savior and grew to have a deep personal relationship with Him that I cherished. I then was baptized and joined the Presbyterian Church. I joined the LDS Church with my family when I was 18 years old. Although my understanding of Jesus changed somewhat my relationship with Him did not. Now 37 years later I am studying the Catholic Church and I realize that my understanding of Jesus may change once again, but nothing I’ve read so far would change my relationship with Him. It doesn’t really matter to me if others consider me or the LDS Church not to be Christian. The word "cult’ does bother me because such labels can lead to persecution.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

gryskull:

Dear BJ,
Do you mind posting the exact words from the Book of Abraham 3:15-22. I think this is from your scripture Pearl of Great Price. Thanks.

Thank you gryskull, Now I know, I guess you can tell I am not a student of scripture. I actually was out of the Church for 20 years, so have only been back for a short 6 years. I did not know where the story of creation came from, except in Genesis. This just enhances and expounds on Genesis. Thank You!
BJ

 

[BJ_Colbert]

IF that’s all there is to the definition, sure, lots of people can be Christians. However, as a Catholic, I believe there is quite a bit more to the definition. Accepting Jesus as one’s Savior is of complete necessity, no argument there, but what about…

Rejecting sin?
Receiving the Body and Blood of Christ?
Being baptized?
Obeying the law?

…and let’s not forget…

Following the leaders and tradition of the Church that Christ Himself established here on earth?

I don’t believe that Mormons are Christians. I believe that Mormons believe they are Christians. But that’s about as far as it gets.

I don’t believe that being a sinner makes you not a Christian, or non of us would be considered Christian.
As far as receiving the Sacrament(Eucharist) that comes after Baptism and when you are baptized you take upon you the name of Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, and promise to obey His laws. When you break His laws you confess and repent and make yourself worthy by not repeating the sin. When you take the Sacramento you renew your promise every week. If you are not worthy to take it because of unrepentance then you work on repenting until you again feel worthy again. The lawbreakers also can be Christian, just need to repent.
I have broken some commandments, and I try not to, but being human and not perfect it is difficult. For instance He says Keep the Sabath Day Holy. It is my son’s 42nd birthday today and we may buy a pizza and take it over for a family birthday party. Sometimes we don’t do everything we are supposed to do. But, the important thing is God does forgive and he knows that I am trying. Also, I will probably send my Catholic husband in to buy the pizza. (I am joking) He doesn’t believe in keeping the Sabbath Day Holy.
He feels that as long as you go to Mass Sunday morning or Saturday night then you have filled your obligation for keeping the Sabath Day and the rest of the day can be spent on the lake, or washing the car and doing yard work.
The point is a Christian, sinner or not, needs to believe that Jesus Christ is his personal Savior and that He gave His life upon the Cross to atone for our sins and give us the opportunity to repent.
If a person does not believe that, then he is not a Christian.
BJ

 

[surfinpure]

BJ Colbert:

I don’t believe that being a sinner makes you not a Christian, or non of us would be considered Christian.
As far as receiving the Sacrament(Eucharist) that comes after Baptism and when you are baptized you take upon you the name of Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, and promise to obey His laws. When you break His laws you confess and repent and make yourself worthy by not repeating the sin. When you take the Sacramento you renew your promise every week. If you are not worthy to take it because of unrepentance then you work on repenting until you again feel worthy again. The lawbreakers also can be Christian, just need to repent.
I have broken some commandments, and I try not to, but being human and not perfect it is difficult. For instance He says Keep the Sabath Day Holy. It is my son’s 42nd birthday today and we may buy a pizza and take it over for a family birthday party. Sometimes we don’t do everything we are supposed to do. But, the important thing is God does forgive and he knows that I am trying. Also, I will probably send my Catholic husband in to buy the pizza. (I am joking) He doesn’t believe in keeping the Sabbath Day Holy.
He feels that as long as you go to Mass Sunday morning or Saturday night then you have filled your obligation for keeping the Sabath Day and the rest of the day can be spent on the lake, or washing the car and doing yard work.
The point is a Christian, sinner or not, needs to believe that Jesus Christ is his personal Savior and that He gave His life upon the Cross to atone for our sins and give us the opportunity to repent.
If a person does not believe that, then he is not a Christian.
BJ

BJ,

Where, exactly, is your point? If it’s in your final two sentences, then you have echoed what I already acknowledged.

If it’s that we’re fallen creatures, I never said rejecting sin or obeying the law could be accomplished in perfection by imperfect beings. Of course there has to be reconciliation when one sins. That’s a basic tenet of the Catholic faith.

The point I was addressing is that there is more to being a Christian than simply confessing and believing in Christ. Scripture tells us that **even the demons do that. **

 

[BDawg]

Hi Vox,

I think what you have said is reasonable. However, I’m curious about what you think of my previous comments. That is, what about the objection of many LDS that when people go around saying “Mormons aren’t Christian,” without explaining that they are referring to some non-dictionary definition of what it means to be TRUE Christians, their hearers often get the wrong idea and think we are not even generically Christian. Personally, I would be satisfied to be called a “heretical Christian,” because it communicates the intent more clearly.

BDawg

 

[Seeks_God]

BDawg:

Hi Vox,

I think what you have said is reasonable. However, I’m curious about what you think of my previous comments. That is, what about the objection of many LDS that when people go around saying “Mormons aren’t Christian,” without explaining that they are referring to some non-dictionary definition of what it means to be TRUE Christians, their hearers often get the wrong idea and think we are not even generically Christian. Personally, I would be satisfied to be called a “heretical Christian,” because it communicates the intent more clearly.

BDawg

okay you heretical Christian… Just kidding BDawg! just thought it sounded funny…

 

[BDawg]

surf(name removed by moderator)ure:

The point I was addressing is that there is more to being a Christian than simply confessing and believing in Christ. Scripture tells us that **even the demons do that. **

Hi surf(name removed by moderator)ure,

By your definition, many people, Catholics and Protestants alike, are not REALLY Christians. I agree that just belonging to a certain group doesn’t make you a REAL Christian. However, Latter-day Saints feel that people like you are spreading misinformation about us when you just say, “Mormons are not Christian,” because most of your hearers are thinking of the dictionary definition of “Christian,” rather than your pet definition. So I have no problem with your “boundary maintenance.” I would just like it if you didn’t confuse people about us.

BDawg

 

[Vox_Borealis]

BDawg:

Hi Vox,

I think what you have said is reasonable. However, I’m curious about what you think of my previous comments. That is, what about the objection of many LDS that when people go around saying “Mormons aren’t Christian,” without explaining that they are referring to some non-dictionary definition of what it means to be TRUE Christians, their hearers often get the wrong idea and think we are not even generically Christian. Personally, I would be satisfied to be called a “heretical Christian,” because it communicates the intent more clearly.

BDawg

Thank you! To be honest, I have to think about this more. I am leary of your appeal to the “dictionary definition” of Christianity, since whoever wrote the definition are likely already informed by a pretty specific understanding of what the term means. For example, my American Heritage dictionary defines Christianity as " The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus." The definition itself already contains the notion that there is one religion Christianity. I suspect that the authors, whether believers or not, assume a certain set of values/identifiers associated with the words Christian and Christianity. If I asked the authors of the dictionary, “I am a member of a religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus, but we also have another holy book that informs us Jesus was a alien from Mars, and that Heaven is a giant spaceship, and the FAther is the commander of the spaceship,” I am pretty sure that the authors of the dictionary would question whether I was Christian–even though my religion fit the definition in the dictionary.

Again, this is an extremely silly example, but I think you get my point. I reject the premise that a Christian–Catholic or otherwise–should have to justify that he or she is using a definition of Christian that is more sophisticated or detailed than the dictionary definition.

That being said, you are correct that individuals–myself included, and perhaps especially those who are drawn to apologetics–are perhaps too quick to dismiss sytems of belief as “cult” or “non-Christian” without explaining specifically what boundaries have ben transgressed and who has determined those boundaries (is it my personal definition, the definition that the Church claims, what my pastor said, etc.?).

An interesting feature of this debate is the issue of why one should care if he or she is deemed “Christian.” Obviously the term still lends legitimacy to a religion oor belief system. Hence, Catholics debate with evangelicals whether or not RC is “Christian”; so too LDS works very hard to convince people that their religion is Christian.

I will think more about you questions more, though–they are thought provoking!

PS–would you prefer to be deemed a “heretical Christian” (which in my mind can only be perjorative), or would you prefer that LDS be considered a Judeo-Christian religion (of this, there can be no doubt, I think)?

 

[wademann]

There are some that would say that the Bible is hard to believe. Moses actually parted the red sea, yea right. Sounds like a pretty good dream. Just like there are those who doubted Jesus and Moses and many other prophets back then, there are those that doubt Joseph Smith and other modern day prophets today. Just because you find it hard to believe doesn’t make it not true. If people would read the Book of Mormon they might have a difference of opinion. What could it hurt?

 

[BDawg]

Vox Borealis:

PS–would you prefer to be deemed a “heretical Christian” (which in my mind can only be perjorative), or would you prefer that LDS be considered a Judeo-Christian religion (of this, there can be no doubt, I think)?

Well, of course I would prefer the latter. However, the first does not bother me. My point is that it doesn’t matter to me whether someone else thinks I am “beyond the pale of orthodoxy.” I only care about fairness in how we describe each other.

BDawg

 

[surfinpure]

.

BDawg:

Hi surf(name removed by moderator)ure,

By your definition, many people, Catholics and Protestants alike, are not REALLY Christians. I agree that just belonging to a certain group doesn’t make you a REAL Christian. However, Latter-day Saints feel that people like you are spreading misinformation about us when you just say, “Mormons are not Christian,” because most of your hearers are thinking of the dictionary definition of “Christian,” rather than your pet definition. So I have no problem with your “boundary maintenance.” I would just like it if you didn’t confuse people about us.

BDawg

People like ME, BDawg? Wow, those are fightin’ words! LOL

To be quite honest, I don’t go around talking about Mormons. Or even thinking about Mormons, you’ll be glad to know. So my “hearers” on the whole bloody topic are precious few. Incidentally, my “pet” definition of “Christian” also happens to be the entire Roman Catholic Church’s “pet” definition, and has been for millenia. I think that qualifies it a bit more than you’d like, perhaps.

 

[BDawg]

surf(name removed by moderator)ure:

People like ME, BDawg? Wow, those are fightin’ words! LOL

To be quite honest, I don’t go around talking about Mormons. Or even thinking about Mormons, you’ll be glad to know. So my “hearers” on the whole bloody topic are precious few.

I had already picked up on the fact that you don’t go around thinking about Mormons. However, I had gathered from your several posts on this thread that you have no problem talking about them. Nyuck, nyuck. Now THEM’S fightin’ words!
surf(name removed by moderator)ure:

Incidentally, my “pet” definition of “Christian” also happens to be the entire Roman Catholic Church’s “pet” definition, and has been for millenia. I think that qualifies it a bit more than you’d like, perhaps.

Really? I was under the impression that the Catechism specifically does not exclude Protestantism from “Christianity.” However, parts of your definition would exclude it.

BDawg

 

[Seeks_God]

I once listend to an audio tape of a book JPII wrote and he was speaking about other denominations and their relationship with The Church. He explained other denominations as being in ‘spheres’ of communion and based on their respective doctrines there is a relation as to how close the ‘sphere’ overlaps the Catholic faith…it was interesting…

 

[ex-mormon]

gryskull:

Are mormons considered christians or a cult? Why?

Unless the LDS Prophet decides to invite all the members to Utah for a Kool-aid party or to hole up in their highly flamable non ATF proof building, or even to wait for the End of the world while eating rat poison, I’m going to go with Christian.

I was Mormon and now Catholic, and I know that Christ has always been the focal point of my Christian life. I know that I am going to get a lot of static on this subject from my fellow Catholics, including my wife, but I have been Mormon, also known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I know that he has always been mine and all Mormons Saviour. I would disagree with the term of Heretical Christian and a Cult of Christianity, I think the term Christian with cultish tendencies would better describe the early Mormon Church. The modern Mormon Church could even be said to be a lot more christian then mainstream protostantism with relation to family values, homosexuality, most of their abortion policys, and morality in general. I think this thread would be better served if it asked the question How does The LDS church differ from Catholisism and Christianity in general with the regard to Christian teachings. I know that title is a little long, but I think it better serves the discussions on our differing beliefs.

A lot of people will use Anti-Mormon web sites for references in their posts, a word of caution; you will find half truths mixed with out and out lies about Mormons and Catholics on these sights. I would suggest taking these half truths and researching them on the LDS Fair and Farms websites, and the Catholic answers websites. Read actual books, past and present, from both sides and then make a rational judgement based on fact, not things that have been taken out of context. Anybody can sensationalize an argument with conspiracy theorys that include grassy knowles, Van Allen radiation belt, and sightings of tiangular and frisbee flying craft, but it doesn’t mean squat when you don’t have the facts.

The early Mormon Church with regards to their own recorded history would fall into the defenition of “Christian Cult”. The Modern Church shys away from the past and redefines itself with it’s action as Christians that have a lot of great moral people who would give you the shirt off their back. And that doesn’t mean that you have to accept their beliefs or a free copy of the Book of Mormon with missionary lessons. Our Bishop of the Tucson Diocese directed us at the Chrism Mass to show our fellow man what a great thing it is to be Catholic, and what it is like to know Christs love for all by leading by example. Telling someone that they are not Christian and they belong to a cult does not achieve this. I hope this adds to the discussion and enlightens some that look at other denominations with blinders. This does not mean that I will not debate theological issues with the LDS posters, but hopefully we can do it in a Christian way.

God bless,

ex-mo

 

[BJ_Colbert]

surf(name removed by moderator)ure:

BDawg, I have a hard time believing that the LDS church is easy to leave. Particularly given how strenuous a task it is to get a Mormon to leave your HOUSE when you want him to! They don’t exactly like to take “no” for an answer.

I can’t believe you invited them in if you truely did not want to. What are you a woos? I simply tell them NO, I am not interested, I have my own religion, thank you, Good bye.
BJ

 

[Seeks_God]

I invite missionaries in all the time. I take it as an opportunity to learn about the True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (I’m being facetious.).
Living in Utah and being Catholic I’ve noticed that my children have been ostracized at school and my wife isn’t accepted in the public community. So, I take I see the value of explaining to Mormons that The Church NEVER left the earth, Jesus and Satan are not brothers, and loving your enemy is not just a novel concept.
I’m being silly, of course, but I’ve never had a missionary get pushy with me. I understand that they are not supposed to push the ‘other testament’ if people do not wish to hear it.

 

[surfinpure]

BDawg:

Really? I was under the impression that the Catechism specifically does not exclude Protestantism from “Christianity.” However, parts of your definition would exclude it.

BDawg

BDawg,

You were mistaken. I quote from the Catechism, paragraph 846:

“Basing itself in Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed that the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. ** Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it.**”

I’m sorry, but you asked for it.