Mormonism...Christian or Cult?

[blueadept]

Well said Todd…:clapping:
Since I deal with this on a daily basis and I know the differences between my wife’s church (LDS) and mine (catholic), I’ve decided to focus on the positive things and not if their church is a cult.

 

[ex-mormon]

ex-mormon:

Unless the LDS Prophet decides to invite all the members to Utah for a Kool-aid party or to hole up in their highly flamable non ATF proof building, or even to wait for the End of the world while eating rat poison, I’m going to go with Christian.

I was Mormon and now Catholic, and I know that Christ has always been the focal point of my Christian life. I know that I am going to get a lot of static on this subject from my fellow Catholics, including my wife, but I have been Mormon, also known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I know that he has always been mine and all Mormons Saviour. I would disagree with the term of Heretical Christian and a Cult of Christianity, I think the term Christian with cultish tendencies would better describe the early Mormon Church. The modern Mormon Church could even be said to be a lot more christian then mainstream protostantism with relation to family values, homosexuality, most of their abortion policys, and morality in general. I think this thread would be better served if it asked the question How does The LDS church differ from Catholisism and Christianity in general with the regard to Christian teachings. I know that title is a little long, but I think it better serves the discussions on our differing beliefs.

A lot of people will use Anti-Mormon web sites for references in their posts, a word of caution; you will find half truths mixed with out and out lies about Mormons and Catholics on these sights. I would suggest taking these half truths and researching them on the LDS Fair and Farms websites, and the Catholic answers websites. Read actual books, past and present, from both sides and then make a rational judgement based on fact, not things that have been taken out of context. Anybody can sensationalize an argument with conspiracy theorys that include grassy knowles, Van Allen radiation belt, and sightings of tiangular and frisbee flying craft, but it doesn’t mean squat when you don’t have the facts.

The early Mormon Church with regards to their own recorded history would fall into the defenition of “Christian Cult”. The Modern Church shys away from the past and redefines itself with it’s action as Christians that have a lot of great moral people who would give you the shirt off their back. And that doesn’t mean that you have to accept their beliefs or a free copy of the Book of Mormon with missionary lessons. Our Bishop of the Tucson Diocese directed us at the Chrism Mass to show our fellow man what a great thing it is to be Catholic, and what it is like to know Christs love for all by leading by example. Telling someone that they are not Christian and they belong to a cult does not achieve this. I hope this adds to the discussion and enlightens some that look at other denominations with blinders. This does not mean that I will not debate theological issues with the LDS posters, but hopefully we can do it in a Christian way.

God bless,

ex-mo

I will refer to my earlier post on this subject; "Our Bishop of the Tucson Diocese directed us at the Chrism Mass to show our fellow man what a great thing it is to be Catholic, and what it is like to know Christs love for all by leading by example. Telling someone that they are not Christian and they belong to a cult does not achieve this. I hope this adds to the discussion and enlightens some that look at other denominations with blinders. This does not mean that I will not debate theological issues with the LDS posters, but hopefully we can do it in a Christian way."

God Bless,

ex-mo

 

[John_19_59]

Tmaque,

Everything I put in my post about Mormons is true, Planet Kolob, Adam, Gods wife, Gods father etc… (with one very slight correction - the angel Moroni pointed Joseph Smith to a stone chest buried in the hill which contained the plates, they were later sealed up in the cave in the same hill). It is a far cry from Christianity - its even a bit like science fiction.

Now you might think its OK for a charlatan like Joseph Smith to get away with what he did but others think the truth is actually important.

If you don’t you are into the realms of relativism.

Peter, Paul and the Apostles were not commanded to go out and look for the good in the religions they found.

Mormons won’t come to the Catholic Church unless it is pointed out why they are wrong - the same with any other religion.

There are many many ex-mormons out there only too grateful for having had the truth pointed out to them. There are many many ex-mormons out there only too willing to tell Mormons the truth too.

If we don’t tell them and “only look for the good” we are giving comfort to their erroneous beliefs - something that has been condemned by the Church in the past. See Mortalium Animos.

I have had some interesting, comprehensive and long discussions with Mormons and I know how dogged they are in their beliefs.

They actually won’t tell you the full extent of their beliefs either, you have to drag it out of them.

They are not allowed to properly investigate the truth for themselves either - it its not from LDS sources they won’t believe it, so it is our duty to inform them of the true Christ.

They may be sincere, they may be good people, but its not enough. Read Mortalium Animos

 

[searcher]

My wife, adult daughter, adult son and I are practicing Latter-day Saints. Truthfully, none of us believe that God lives on the planet Kolob, that God was Adam or that Jesus was married, nor have we ever.My son and daughter do believe in “God’s wife” and “God’s father”, etc. but my wife and I do not. They realize it is not official doctrine. Within the LDS Church there is much diversity of belief, just as there is in other Churches. The information at LDS.org is the official doctrine. It’s probably the closest thing you can come to a Mormon Catechism.

I am studying the Catholic Church and I have always had a great interest since my exposure to it as a Protestant teenager. My interest has been renewed through the loving example of three devout Catholic friends. Perhaps they do not know enough about my faith to show me the error of my ways, but they have cheerfully shared their own.I do not know if they believe I am a Christian, but they treat me as such. If they had pointed out the wrongs of my Church early in our friendship I probably would have been offended. Instead I have three wonderful friends and I am learning more and more about the beautiful truths of the Catholic Church.

 

[TeriGator]

document.write(drawVerse(1,167965));**
**
THE BOOK OF ABRHAHAM
CHAPTER 3
scriptures.lds.org/themes/graphics/selectoff.gif1 AND I, Abraham, had the Urim• and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees;
http://scriptures.lds.org/themes/graphics/spacer.gif
2 And I saw the stars•, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;
http://scriptures.lds.org/themes/graphics/spacer.gif
3. And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob•, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

CHAPTER 4

1 AND then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods•, organized• and formed the heavens• and the earth.

Has the Book of Abraham been disavowed by the church? We were taught that it held the force of scripture, and it was discussed during Relief Society and even Sunday School.

 

[searcher]

Yes, the Book of Abraham is still considered Scripture by the LDS Church, but the passages you quoted are interpreted by some Church members symbolically rather than literally.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

I printed this very scripture in a previous post. To me it says that Kolob is a star very near to where God is, but it doesn’t say He lives there and since a star is like our sun, no one, even God would want to live in the midst of a ball of fire. Could someone please explain where it says He lives on Kolob? Since this verse of Abraham clearly does not say that.
Also, an LDS hymn, “Oh My Father” which was sung by the pioneers crossing the plains says in the 3rd verse “In the heavens are parents single? No the thought makes reason stare! Truth is reason, truth eternal Tells me I’ve a mother there.” So you see mother mentioned as part of a song and part of the words of the song were written from Romans 8:16-17 “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God; And if children, then heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also be glorified together. and Acts 17:28-29” For in Him we live and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at;but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" The words of the hymn were written by Eliza R. Snow, who lived from 1804-1887.
I do not know of any place that it is written that there is a mother in heaven. So I would assume that it was artistic license, taken with the reasoning that God is our Father, we must naturally have a mother. But, that is not something that is in our doctrine or scriptures that I am aware of. We tend to speculate on these things as the Catholics speculate that Mary must have been assumed into heaven since no body exists. That is not in scripture it is just assumed as a possibility and therefore has been made fact by a Pope who decided that there was enough rumor about it to make it true.

BJ

 

[John_19_59]

What we see here is how Mormon belief has changed from literal translation to symbolic translation (ie. fudge and obfuscation), in an attempt to seem more mainstream. “Official” LDS teaching is an ever-moving set of goalposts.

You should read some Brigham Young - he didn’t fudge.

Adam is God according to him.

God is an exhaulted man!

We can all become exhaulted (ie God) and rule our own worlds.

OK technically our God (as opposed to the other Gods in other universes) doesn’t live on Kolob (I have been trying to remember stuff I discussed endlessly a few years ago), but he lives on a planet close to Kolob - he is a physical entity and he has a physical wife - and he has a father and mother, as they do, and they do, and… etc…

The history of “The Book of Abraham” is a real eye-opener. If anyone isn’t convinced that Joseph Smith was a charlatan after that they never will be.

I find Mormons fascinating, there are some very significant parrallels between Joseph Smith and Mohammed (who I find equally fascinating).

Again I recommend “No man Knows my History” by Fawn Brodie (an ex-Mormon).

People need to be rescued from false religion.

 

[Tmaque]

John_19_59:

Tmaque,

Everything I put in my post about Mormons is true, Planet Kolob, Adam, Gods wife, Gods father etc… (with one very slight correction - the angel Moroni pointed Joseph Smith to a stone chest buried in the hill which contained the plates, they were later sealed up in the cave in the same hill). It is a far cry from Christianity - its even a bit like science fiction.

Now you might think its OK for a charlatan like Joseph Smith to get away with what he did but others think the truth is actually important.

If you don’t you are into the realms of relativism.

Peter, Paul and the Apostles were not commanded to go out and look for the good in the religions they found.

Mormons won’t come to the Catholic Church unless it is pointed out why they are wrong - the same with any other religion.

There are many many ex-mormons out there only too grateful for having had the truth pointed out to them. There are many many ex-mormons out there only too willing to tell Mormons the truth too.

If we don’t tell them and “only look for the good” we are giving comfort to their erroneous beliefs - something that has been condemned by the Church in the past. See Mortalium Animos.

I have had some interesting, comprehensive and long discussions with Mormons and I know how dogged they are in their beliefs.

They actually won’t tell you the full extent of their beliefs either, you have to drag it out of them.

They are not allowed to properly investigate the truth for themselves either - it its not from LDS sources they won’t believe it, so it is our duty to inform them of the true Christ.

They may be sincere, they may be good people, but its not enough. Read Mortalium Animos

John, I was an active LDS for the first 24 years of my life. Served a mission in South Korea, served many positions(Elder’s Quorum president, Sunday School teacher, Priests Quorum Advisor, etc), and was very devout. So I understand fully the nature of LDS beliefs and where they differ from mainstream Christianity. But, you missed the whole point of my post. It’s OBVIOUS to LDS that they have differing beliefs with Christian groups. To explain why the Catholic Church is true is just fine. But to START that conversation by telling a person that loves and worships Jesus Christ that they are not Christian defeats the entire purpose of fellowship. If conversion of LDS is your real intent then an approach that doesn’t offend and insult would be in order. This particular approach does offend and insult. My main point is this: It doesn’t matter how true your message is if no one will listen to it. Calling LDS non-Christian effectively closes the door to any message we can give them. Therefore, it’s totally counterproductive.

 

[Tmaque]

John_19_59:

People need to be rescued from false religion.

I agree. So, rescue in a way that increases the chance that your attempts will bear fruit. That is through fellowship and friendship, not condemnation.

 

[John_19_59]

Calling LDS non-Christian effectively closes the door to any message we can give them. Therefore, it’s totally counterproductive.

But they are non-Christian. They believe Jesus is not God (yet?).

How many ex-Mormons converted by their own efforts and how many converted because they were shown the truth?

They need to be told.

 

[Tmaque]

John_19_59:

But they are non-Christian. They believe Jesus is not God (yet?).

How many ex-Mormons converted by their own efforts and how many converted because they were shown the truth?

They need to be told.

John,

Then by all means please go ahead and :banghead: all you want to. Whatever floats your boat. Just don’t be surprised when no one responds to your efforts at evangelization.

 

[TeriGator]

“In the heavens are parents single? No the thought makes reason stare! Truth is reason, truth eternal Tells me I’ve a mother there.” So you see mother mentioned as part of a song and part of the words of the song were written from Romans 8:16-17

Those of us who sang that song in Utah knew what it meant - that our God had a wife in heaven with him. She was the mother of all his spirit children, which means all the souls on earth. The fact that the song also quotes from scripture is neither here nor there.

We tend to speculate on these things as the Catholics speculate that Mary must have been assumed into heaven since no body exists. That is not in scripture it is just assumed as a possibility and therefore has been made fact by a Pope who decided that there was enough rumor about it to make it true.

“A pope” did not just willy-nilly declare this to be true. The Church does not definitely teach on whether Mary died or was taken into heaven before death. It *is *doctrine, however that she is now in heaven. The Church had long taught this, and it was affirmed as doctrine in order to clarify what Catholics must believe.

From Catholic Answers:

Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, “after the completion of her earthly life” (note the silence regarding her death), “was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven.”

 

[TeriGator]

Incidentally, my main emphasis on the quote from Abraham was the plural “Gods.” Sorry if I did not make that clear.

 

[gryskull]

BJ Colbert:

Also, an LDS hymn, “Oh My Father” which was sung by the pioneers crossing the plains says in the 3rd verse “In the heavens are parents single? No the thought makes reason stare! Truth is reason, truth eternal Tells me I’ve a mother there.” So you see mother mentioned as part of a song and part of the words of the song were written from Romans 8:16-17 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God; And if children, then heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also be glorified together.
BJ

I really don’t see the corrolation of the words of the song with what St. Paul said in his epistle to the romans. The song talks about having a mother in heaven while St. Paul talks about how we are heirs through the Spirit and Christ.
BJ Colbert:

We tend to speculate on these things as the Catholics speculate that Mary must have been assumed into heaven since no body exists. That is not in scripture it is just assumed as a possibility and therefore has been made fact by a Pope who decided that there was enough rumor about it to make it true.
BJ

These are not called rumors but traditions. The pope doesn’t declare anything infallibly because of something which he just heard or so called rumors. The long standing tradition of the Assumption of Mary goes back to Apostolic Times and is well explain by one of the Church Fathers St. John of Damascus:

St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.

Traditions are far different from rumors. Learn more about the early church fathers and you’ll learn more about history. As Cardinal John Henry Newman said " To be steep in History is to cease to be Protestant"

 

[ceasar]

Tmaque:

BJ, Thanks for telling me what I believe, I didn’t know I believed that about LDS.

I am a Catholic and frankly I’m sick of people saying the LDS Church is a cult. It’s simply ridiculous and only shows a persons ignorance. I also get tired of the “Christian or not” debate. Do LDS fall into the traditional category of Christian? No, they do not mainly because they deny the Blessed Trinity and they do not worship Jesus. But, they DO believe that Jesus Christ is the Saviour. Frankly, I think if a person believes Christ died for their sins then they can claim to be Christian. But, I can certainly understand why someone else would say they are not Christian.

what if they believe in a different jesus than the true jesus?? does that still count???.. lets just say the majority of their beleifs have surfaced in the last 150 years…vs. beliefs that are thousands of years old…i say they believe in a different jesus…a different gospel…its like the wolf in sheeps clothing…designed to look like christians and even act like them…but are not…

Ceasar

 

[Jo_s_Dad]

What does it matter?

The reason there are so many blue cars on the road today is because not everyone likes green. No one church is truely better or worse than any other once you get right down to it and no one church is right for everyone.

I have attended many denominations and they all say the same thing “We’re the ONE true church”. Baloney.

Does Jesus not say in Matthew 18:20 “Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them”?

He dosen’t say two or three Baptists, or Catholics, or Mormons… he say’s two or three… PERIOD. The rest is just case of “Daddy loves me best”.

Just love one another, keep God’s commandments and teach others to do the same. Find YOUR faith in God and then find the church that sustains and fulfils that faith, and just respect the choice that other good Christians have made even though you may not agree with the teachings of that church. The rest is semantics.

Oh, and that whole thing about not being able to leave the LDS Church? Wrong. When I left, it was nothing more than “Well, sorry to see you go and hope you change your mind someday”.

 

[Tmaque]

ceasar:

what if they believe in a different jesus than the true jesus?? does that still count???.. lets just say the majority of their beleifs have surfaced in the last 150 years…vs. beliefs that are thousands of years old…i say they believe in a different jesus…a different gospel…its like the wolf in sheeps clothing…designed to look like christians and even act like them…but are not…

Ceasar

Official LDS doctrine is not as far removed from Catholic doctrine (in regards to the Trinity) as you think. Please explain why the LDS view of Jesus is different than the Catholic Jesus. And, please use official LDS doctrine, not some garbage from an anti-LDS website.

 

[BigJack1]

Tmaque,

I think the claims that Mormons are not Christian have their base in the very things you mention in your post. They do not believe the same thing about the blessed Trinity and the divinity of Jesus that Catholics do. Since the Catholic Church is the one established by Christ and the one Christ gave his authority to to teach without error, its teaching on the nature of Christ must be the true one. For that reason, the Mormon beliefs on the nature of Christ cannot be true, therefore they cannot be “Christian”. A group is not free to change the definition of Christian in order to fit what they would like it to be. No matter how similar the doctrines may be, no one has the authority to change the meaning of the word Christian. It sort of falls under the same category as those who would try to redefine marraige. No matter how bad they want a union between two men or two women to be called a marraige, it is not possible for them to change God’s definition. I believe the same applies with Christianity. No matter how bad Mormons would like to be considered Christian, you can’t change the very nature of Christianity and then apply that label to yourself. If just doesn’t work.

BigJack

 

[Casen]

BigJack1,
So, by your definition only Catholics are Christian. Do I understand correctly?

If that’s your opinion that’s fine but it seems to me to be a very narrow definition and unnecessarily exclusionary.

I prefer the broader definition that all churches that worship Christ are “Christian.” That doesn’t mean that I agree with the doctrine of each but I don’t see any harm in acknowledging that they worship Jesus Christ, even if I feel they are wrong on various doctrinal points.