Mormonism lack of evidence.

[Chris-WA]

Im not sure how the LDS Church deals with scientific discoveries that clash with it’s belief systems, or how they encourage their people to deal with it. But there does seem to be an encouraging of a “blind faith” when science and faith collide and an embracing of their testimonies that is seen as given to them by the Holy Spirit.

How do they deal with it? Deny, make circular arguments, ignore, put blame on the person asking the questions, and tell the member to “Doubt your doubts.” That last one is a quote from a current LDS apostle by the way.

So evidence doesn’t really matter much to them. Their testimonies trump that.

Very true. it does not matter. It’s called putting your head in the sand. For those members that do investigate the evidence, they often read themselves right out of Mormonism.

 

[Marie5890]

We believe that our physical life is a test of our faith. It was never intended that the physical evidence of the Book of Mormon would be the thing that would bring conversion. It is only for those who are willing to diligently search, read and pray to God and ask if it is true.
In my opinion “blind faith” is an oxymoron. The only time there is blind faith is when there is no faith. Faith is seeing into the spiritual world:

"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight).” (2 Cor. 5:6-7)

In the physical world we see through our eyes by the light of the sun or other forms of light energy. In the spiritual world we see through faith by the light of Christ.

“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” (John 8:12)

In the physical world we discover truth by observing with our physical senses or though seeking physical evidence. However, we are told in Hebrews 11:1 that when seeking (spiritual) truth, that “faith… is the evidence”. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Heb11:1)

Paul teaches us the folly of trying to understand our spiritual world by using the tools of the physical world when he writes in 1 Corinthians 2:14:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2:14)

I hope this helps you with your question of why physical evidence is not the main concern of Mormons. However, if you want to find the physical evidence for Mormon truth, CAF is probably not the best place to look.

A person can have great faith without suspending their intellect. God does not ask us to suspend our intellect, our ability to reason.

We are made in His image. Intelligence is a gift from God, as is faith. The ability to reason is a gift from God, as is faith. Truly.

 

[Marie5890]

How do they deal with it? Deny, make circular arguments, ignore, put blame on the person asking the questions, and tell the member to “Doubt your doubts.” That last one is a quote from a current LDS apostle by the way.

Very true. it does not matter. It’s called putting your head in the sand. For those members that do investigate the evidence, they often read themselves right out of Mormonism.

Without it being really thought out for them, there is some sort of agreement that science and faith are at odds and clash.

As Catholics, we know it’s the opposite.

 

[mtolympus]

I was trying to help you understand in my post #77 from the Bible why the LDS Church doesn’t fall apart every time something comes along to “prove” the church is false. Everyone seems to have simply ignored what the Bible said on this matter. Can’t you see that all of your arguments are based on the wisdom of man? Is that where your faith is? Can you prove every aspect of your beliefs? My testimony is not based on a one time spiritual event. It is based on a life time of personal miracles through prayer and through living the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul explains it this way:

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Cor. 2:1-5)

 

[thephilosopher6]

I was trying to help you understand in my post #77 from the Bible why the LDS Church doesn’t fall apart every time something comes along to “prove” the church is false. Everyone seems to have simply ignored what the Bible said on this matter. Can’t you see that all of your arguments are based on the wisdom of man? Is that where your faith is? Can you prove every aspect of your beliefs? My testimony is not based on a one time spiritual event. It is based on a life time of personal miracles through prayer and through living the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul explains it this way:

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Cor. 2:1-5)

Did you not read anything from my post?

All your wisdom is based off of a man. Joseph Smith. A man who lived 1800 years after Christ yet claimed to know more about him than anyone else. A man who claimed to have found golden plates that nobody ever saw. A man who apparently translated an Egyptian papyri claiming it told stories about Abraham calling it the 'Book of Abraham; yet most scholars who have examined it believe it to be an embalming ceremony by an Egyptian god and believe Smith’s translation is false. He was also heavily involved in Freemasonry. Many of the ceremony in Mormon temples were borrowed from Freemason ceremony’s. Did you also know Joseph Smith was also arrested over 40 times in his life? They were on charges of being disorderly, illegal banking, banking fraud, threatening a public official, and even for conspiracy to murder! Joseph Smith was basically a con man.

*1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Matthew 7:15-16 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"

Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
*

 

[RebeccaJ]

I was trying to help you understand in my post #77 from the Bible why the LDS Church doesn’t fall apart every time something comes along to “prove” the church is false. Everyone seems to have simply ignored what the Bible said on this matter. Can’t you see that all of your arguments are based on the wisdom of man? Is that where your faith is? Can you prove every aspect of your beliefs? My testimony is not based on a one time spiritual event. It is based on a life time of personal miracles through prayer and through living the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul explains it this way:

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Cor. 2:1-5)

Paul is speaking of Christ Crucified, and the paradox to those he was speaking to of salvation not being found in the leaders of Corinth, but salvation is found in Christ Crucified. The context being, the people at Corinth were in an argument as to which human they should follow, a general idea being held that one should follow who baptized them

Please notice Paul is employing the rational methods that were taught in his day of philosophy and rhetoric.

As we keep saying, our ability to reason is a gift from God. Paul is not teaching here to forgo reason h is teaching that we should use reason to identify where our salvation lies.

 

[Marie5890]

I can’t even begin to image a loving God and Father would implore mind games in order to test the faith of His children. Mind games are not necessary for growth of faith. In fact, mind games are unjust.

What loving parent tests their children with mind games??

 

[Horton]

I was trying to help you understand in my post #77 from the Bible why the LDS Church doesn’t fall apart every time something comes along to “prove” the church is false. Everyone seems to have simply ignored what the Bible said on this matter. Can’t you see that all of your arguments are based on the wisdom of man? Is that where your faith is? Can you prove every aspect of your beliefs? My testimony is not based on a one time spiritual event. It is based on a life time of personal miracles through prayer and through living the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul explains it this way:

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” (1 Cor. 2:1-5)

Bolding mine

Can you prove ANY aspect of your beliefs? The BoM is a work of fiction and not scripture according to non-LDS scholars and the bible supports Christianity rather than the LDS view.

The last sentence is probably not one I would use to support the LDS claim of being the one true church given that it is only from man, Joseph Smith, and not from God.

 

[superwimp]

I was trying to help you understand in my post #77 from the Bible why the LDS Church doesn’t fall apart every time something comes along to “prove” the church is false. Everyone seems to have simply ignored what the Bible said on this matter. Can’t you see that all of your arguments are based on the wisdom of man?

Hello mtolympus,
I'll play in your ball park. The wisdom of man vs. the wisdom of God. During the last supper Jesus taught that the future leaders of the church should serve the congregation. Jesus washed there feet as an example. As the future leaders they weren't to place themselves above the congregation in claiming the best seats. According to the wisdom of man the lesser usually serves the greater. The greater are given the best seats. The lower ranking people serve communion to the leaders instead of the leaders serving communion. The wisdom of man would be to silence all opposing viewpoints.

 

[Janderich]

To be correct, none of the witnesses actually physically saw the golden the plates. Closer study reveals that they saw these things through “spiritual eyes” or the “eyes of our understanding.” This refers to a concept known in the early nineteenth century as second sight. Very commonly, people of the time described seeing visions of spiritual and temporal things, a concept Joseph Smith was very familiar with and used not only in his new religion, but also about other things such as the guardians of hills who watched over buried treasure. It’s not actually seeing, it’s perceiving. LDS historian Grant Palmer does a good job describing this in this talk:

youtube.com/watch?v=kHsvZooc4Bc

If you skip forward to about minute 26 he discusses second sight and the role it played in early Mormon history.

How hard conspiring men try to twist the plain truth. There are so many accounts from the witnesses. Here are just a few which prove your statements false.

Gentlemen, do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Are your eyes playing a trick or something? No. Well, as sure as you see my hand so sure did I see the angel and the plates. - Martin Harris, quoted in “Statement of William M. Glenn to O. E. Fischbacher,” May 30, 1943, Cardston, Alberta, Canada, cited in Deseret News, October 2, 1943.

Well, just as plain as you see that chopping block, I saw the plates; and sooner than I would deny it I would lay my head upon that chopping block and let you chop it off.- Martin Harris, quoted in “Statement of Comfort Elizabeth Godfrey Flinders to N. B. Lundwall,” September 2, 1943, Ogden, Utah, cited in Assorted Gems of Priceless

Rather suggestively [Colonel Giles] asked if it might not have been possible that he, Mr. Whitmer, had been mistaken and had simply been moved upon by some mental disturbance, or hallucination, which had deceived them into thinking he saw the Personage, the Angel, the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the sword of Laban. How well and distinctly I remember the manner in which Elder Whitmer arose and drew himself up to his full height—a little over six feet—and said, in solemn and impressive tones: “No, sir! I was not under any hallucination, nor was I deceived! I saw with these eyes and I heard with these ears! I know whereof I speak!” - Interview with Joseph Smith III et al. (Richmond, Missouri, July 1884), originally published in The Saints’ Herald (28 January 1936)

 

[Horton]

How hard conspiring men try to twist the plain truth. There are so many accounts from the witnesses. Here are just a few which prove your statements false.

Gentlemen, do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Are your eyes playing a trick or something? No. Well, as sure as you see my hand so sure did I see the angel and the plates. - Martin Harris, quoted in “Statement of William M. Glenn to O. E. Fischbacher,” May 30, 1943, Cardston, Alberta, Canada, cited in Deseret News, October 2, 1943.

Well, just as plain as you see that chopping block, I saw the plates; and sooner than I would deny it I would lay my head upon that chopping block and let you chop it off.- Martin Harris, quoted in “Statement of Comfort Elizabeth Godfrey Flinders to N. B. Lundwall,” September 2, 1943, Ogden, Utah, cited in Assorted Gems of Priceless

Rather suggestively [Colonel Giles] asked if it might not have been possible that he, Mr. Whitmer, had been mistaken and had simply been moved upon by some mental disturbance, or hallucination, which had deceived them into thinking he saw the Personage, the Angel, the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the sword of Laban. How well and distinctly I remember the manner in which Elder Whitmer arose and drew himself up to his full height—a little over six feet—and said, in solemn and impressive tones: “No, sir! I was not under any hallucination, nor was I deceived! I saw with these eyes and I heard with these ears! I know whereof I speak!” - Interview with Joseph Smith III et al. (Richmond, Missouri, July 1884), originally published in The Saints’ Herald (28 January 1936)

Wasn’t Martin Harris the guy Smith swindled into putting up the money to publish the BoM? One - He would have a financial interest in providing substantiation of the Smith claim and two - both quotes are not eyewitness accounts from Harris but rather two other people, more than a 100 years later, who claim Harris was an eyewitness. Not quite the same thing.

 

[kdbueno]

Mormonism at the best of my intellect, allows us to understand other dimensions of love.

 

[mtolympus]

I can’t even begin to image a loving God and Father would implore mind games in order to test the faith of His children. Mind games are not necessary for growth of faith. In fact, mind games are unjust.

What loving parent tests their children with mind games??

How about the God of Abraham?

“By faith Abraham, when put to the test, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer his only son, of whom it was said, “Through Isaac descendants shall bear your name” He reasoned that God was able to raise even from the dead, and he received Isaac back as a symbol.” (Heb. 11:17)

Interesting perspective Marie, I have never thought of a testing our faith as God playing mind games with us!

 

[mtolympus]

Bolding mine

Can you prove ANY aspect of your beliefs? The BoM is a work of fiction and not scripture according to non-LDS scholars and the bible supports Christianity rather than the LDS view.

The last sentence is probably not one I would use to support the LDS claim of being the one true church given that it is only from man, Joseph Smith, and not from God.

"That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." (1 Cor. 2:1-5)

“Ask and it will be given you.” (Matt. 7:7) I have found that a testimony of Joseph Smith as a prophet will only come by reading the Book of Mormon and praying about it, or by showing faith by living various principles of gospel. A testimony does not come from evidence or trusting the wisdom of man. Paul did not say “Have faith in the evidence” Paul said “Faith…is the evidence of things not seen.” (Heb. 11:1)

 

[RebeccaJ]

"That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." (1 Cor. 2:1-5)

“Ask and it will be given you.” (Matt. 7:7) I have found that a testimony of Joseph Smith as a prophet will only come by reading the Book of Mormon and praying about it, or by showing faith by living various principles of gospel. A testimony does not come from evidence or trusting the wisdom of man. Paul did not say “Have faith in the evidence” Paul said “Faith…is the evidence of things not seen.” (Heb. 11:1)

Hebrews chapter eleven describes what authentic faith does. It is not a description of what authentic faith is. Immitating what authentic faith does and then claiming that is what faith is, is like imitating flying by flapping your arms. I can see you flapping your arms here. It may fool yourself but not me.

 

[Horton]

"That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." (1 Cor. 2:1-5)

“Ask and it will be given you.” (Matt. 7:7) I have found that a testimony of Joseph Smith as a prophet will only come by reading the Book of Mormon and praying about it, or by showing faith by living various principles of gospel. A testimony does not come from evidence or trusting the wisdom of man. Paul did not say “Have faith in the evidence” Paul said “Faith…is the evidence of things not seen.” (Heb. 11:1)

You asked if we Christians could prove all our beliefs. I replied questioning whether the LDS could prove any of JS claims. Also stating that Christianity can prove some which is better than none.

I’m guessing the answer is no as you have not even attempted to do so. You just, once again, state that faith in JS through reading the BoM is all you need.

 

[truthseeker32]

Is this what it has come to? In order to preserve faith, Mormons will fall into ridiculous levels of skepticism, even solipsism? Ironic, given that they won’t even entertain a fraction of that level of skepticism when scrutinizing their own beliefs.

 

[Horton]

Is this what it has come to? In order to preserve faith, Mormons will fall into ridiculous levels of skepticism, even solipsism? Ironic, given that they won’t even entertain a fraction of that level of skepticism when scrutinizing their own beliefs.

As a former Mormon I’m sure you understand the for the LDS we all, Christianity that is, MUST be wrong in order for them to be right. There is no room in their belief system for two opposing traditions, Christianity and LDS, to exist together. I realize the public message of the last several years is to attempt to make the LDS appear to be a Christian faith but since it is not, never has been, never can be it is all falling apart.

 

[Eric_Magus]

• I in no way intend to offend or upset members of the LDS community. I only intend to help create dialogue and understanding between members of mainstream Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox and Protestants) with members of Mormonism and other heterodox “Christian” movements (Jehovah Witness, Christian Science etc.) -

The Book of Mormon contains many stories about events that happened in the Americas from a period roughly in-between 2500BC to 400AD. Many of the tale’s in the Book of Mormon include accounts of great kingdoms or large battles and wars between different groups. They even include an account that Jesus visited America. The problem with these tale’s is that there is no archeological evidence for them. They also directly contradict many of the things historians know about the history of civilization in pre-Columbian America.

There is also lack of evidence for such things as the Golden Plates, where the accounts of the Book of Mormon supposedly came from. No one but a very small handful of people saw them. And their accounts are questionable. Also, we have things such as the “Book of Abraham”, an ancient Egyptian papyri which Joseph Smith claimed to be additional accounts of Abrahams journeys between Canaan and Egypt. Yet, when the papyri for the Book of Abraham was rediscovered, many scholars concluded that hieroglyphics contained on it depict nothing more but embalming ceremony’s preformed by an Egyptian god.

Mormonism seems to be based on blind faith. Now, Christianity does put importance on faith. But not on blind faith. Christianity does have something to back its faith up, which would be the resurrection of Christ. As Paul says, "If Christ is not raised, then your faith is futile and you are still in your sins." - 1 Corinthians 15:17 Christianity is based on the resurrection. Mormonism is based only on the word of Joseph Smith. A man who came 1800 years after Christ yet claimed to know more about Christ than anyone did.

So, how do you continue to be Mormon when facts and reality simply don’t seem to be in your favor? I am genuinely curious.

Is Mormonism nothing but a bunch of tale’s with no evidence whatsoever and must be accepted with blind faith and gullibility?

All religious dogma is based on faith. Do you think the tale of christ being born of a virgin is history? Have you ever studied mythology? Many Demigods are born of “virgins”, or impregnated by Sky Fathers, of which Jehovah is only another version, just as Jesus is just another Sun God, like Osiris or Mithras.

 

[mtolympus]

Hebrews chapter eleven describes what authentic faith does. It is not a description of what authentic faith is. Immitating what authentic faith does and then claiming that is what faith is, is like imitating flying by flapping your arms. I can see you flapping your arms here. It may fool yourself but not me.

Hebrews says "Faith is… the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) But I guess you can take the argument of the former president:

“It depends upon what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.” -Bill Clinton