Mormonism lack of evidence.

[Horton]

Hebrews says "Faith is… the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) But I guess you can take the argument of the former president:

“It depends upon what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.” -Bill Clinton

It’s not at all about the word “is”, it’s about what faith does, what our faith gives us in order to prepare ourselves for our eternal life.

Taking snippets of scripture and using just the snippet to “prove” your point does not work well with Catholics. We know to read and understand scripture in the context in which it was written, especially the NT. Who was the writer, who is the audience, what is the purpose of the writing. Without taking all of that into consideration, snippets of scripture have little value as you have so unwittingly proved on this thread.

*Hebrews 11:1-16 Faith of the Ancients.
1 Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.
2 because of it the ancients were well attested.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, so that what is visible came into being through the invisible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a sacrifice greater than Cain’s. Through this he was attested to be righteous, God bearing witness to his gifts, and through this, though dead, he still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and “he was found no more because God had taken him.” Before he was taken up, he was attested to have pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him, for anyone who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
7 By faith Noah, warned about what was not yet seen, with reverence built an ark for the salvation of his household. Through this he condemned the world and inherited the righteousness that comes through faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, not knowing where he was to go.
9 By faith he sojourned in the promised land as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs of the same promise;
10 for he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and maker is God.
11 By faith he received power to generate, even though he was past the normal age—and Sarah herself was sterile—for he thought that the one who had made the promise was trustworthy.
12 So it was that there came forth from one man, himself as good as dead, descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sands on the seashore.
13 All these died in faith. They did not receive what had been promised but saw it and greeted it from afar and acknowledged themselves to be strangers and aliens on earth,
14 for those who speak thus show that they are seeking a homeland.
15 If they had been thinking of the land from which they had come, they would have had opportunity to return.
16 But now they desire a better homeland, a heavenly one. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
*

 

[Chris-WA]

How hard conspiring men try to twist the plain truth. There are so many accounts from the witnesses. Here are just a few which prove your statements false.

Gentlemen, do you see that hand? Are you sure you see it? Are your eyes playing a trick or something? No. Well, as sure as you see my hand so sure did I see the angel and the plates. - Martin Harris, quoted in “Statement of William M. Glenn to O. E. Fischbacher,” May 30, 1943, Cardston, Alberta, Canada, cited in Deseret News, October 2, 1943.

Well, just as plain as you see that chopping block, I saw the plates; and sooner than I would deny it I would lay my head upon that chopping block and let you chop it off.- Martin Harris, quoted in “Statement of Comfort Elizabeth Godfrey Flinders to N. B. Lundwall,” September 2, 1943, Ogden, Utah, cited in Assorted Gems of Priceless

Rather suggestively [Colonel Giles] asked if it might not have been possible that he, Mr. Whitmer, had been mistaken and had simply been moved upon by some mental disturbance, or hallucination, which had deceived them into thinking he saw the Personage, the Angel, the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the sword of Laban. How well and distinctly I remember the manner in which Elder Whitmer arose and drew himself up to his full height—a little over six feet—and said, in solemn and impressive tones: “No, sir! I was not under any hallucination, nor was I deceived! I saw with these eyes and I heard with these ears! I know whereof I speak!” - Interview with Joseph Smith III et al. (Richmond, Missouri, July 1884), originally published in The Saints’ Herald (28 January 1936)

Except it’s not the plain truth. This is often the claim made byy Mormon apologists–“It’s the simple plain truth.” How many times have we heard this? But what they are ignoring is the rest of the story. The real truth is far more complex, especially when it comes to Mormon history. You can pick and choose a quote here or there to support your position, but you ignore the huge amount of evidence pointing to different conclusions about people like Martin Harris.

To understand the statements of the witnesses, you have to understand the mindset of the time they all shared. They all had a magical world view, where the difference between the physical world and spiritual world was blurry at best. They believed in all kinds of bizarre things popular at the time among the burnt-over district frontier people, such as visions showing them the locations of treasure buried by the ancients in the surrounding countryside. Many of the earliest converts to Mormonism were treasure diggers, including Harris. He had visions of treasure buried by the ancients in the local hills, including the Hill Cumorah, none of which ever turned out to be true. He would make claims that the digging party would find a treasure box that would sink back into the ground as they tried to unearth it.

It wasn’t that Martin Harris didn’t believe–it’s that he believed every spiritual idea he ever came across. Before he became a Mormon, Harris had been a Quaker, Universalist, Restorationist, Baptist, Presbyterian, and perhaps a Methodist. After the death of Joseph Smith, instead of following Brigham Young as the succeeding prophet, Harris believed James J. Strang was the legitimate successor and followed him. Strang also claimed to receive his own set of metal plates just like Joseph and had his own 11 witnesses sign a statement testifying that they had seen and handled them. Not only Harris, but David, John, and Jacob Whitmer, Hiram Page, William Smith, and Lucy Smith all joined the Strangites instead of following Brigham Young. The only original living BoM witness that didn’t join Strang was Oliver Cowdery, but he ended up moving to Wisconsin 12 miles away from Strang’s Voree headquarters. So with the possible exception of Cowdery, all of the original living signatories to the BoM (including Harris) rejected Brigham Young and accepted Strang’s leadership, angelic call, metal plates, and translation of those plates as authentic. So why LDS would give any of these guys credibility as reliable witnesses is a mystery. LDS will say, “Well, they never denied their testimony about the BoM.” What does that matter? Clearly they could not distinguish between the claims made my Strang and those made by Joseph Smith. Both cannot be correct. (cont.)

 

[Chris-WA]

(cont.)
And as far as your Martin Harris quotes above, he also publically denied that he actually ever physically saw or handled the BoM golden plates. On March 25, 1838, he testified as much during the height of the Ohio banking-related apostacy. This was the final straw that caused Apostles Luke S. Johnson, Lyman E. Johnson, and John F. Boynton, and high priest Stephen Burnett, and seventy Warran Parrish to leave the church. Three weeks after this meeting Burnett wrote the following in a letter to Lyman Johnson:
I have reflected long and deliberately upon the history of this church & weighed the evidence both for & against it–loth to give it up–but when I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David & also that the eight witness never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundations were sapped & the entire superstructure fell a heap of ruins,…I was followed by W. Parrish,] Luke Johson & John Boynton,] all of who[m] concurred with me. A]fter we were done speaking,] M Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain. And he said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false, if it had not been picked out of [h]im but should have let it passed as it was…

So as you can clearly see, all is not so plain. Martin Harris was all over the place. Not exactly what anyone could call a reliable witness of anything.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hebrews says "Faith is… the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) But I guess you can take the argument of the former president:

“It depends upon what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.” -Bill Clinton

I’ll assume you aren’t being purposely obtuse.

Catholic hope is not the type that is wishful thinking, like hoping today that we’ll have a white Christmas. Or hoping that a book that claims to be a historical account, but lacks in rational evidence is “true”. That is what we call wishful thinking.

Our hope is a sure hope, like knowing that tomorrow a loved one will return from their travels. We know they are returning and we are hopeful for their return. It isn’t wishful thinking but is based on reason.

Catholic Hope has a name, Jesus Christ. Our Hope is in Him and Him alone. He is what is, is. Is, isn’t in wishing for a 19th century novelty to be “true”.

Faith is our hope in Jesus Christ. Our Hope is our Salvation. The examples of OT prophets in Hebrews 11 are for our understanding of what the sure Hope in God DID for individuals and people. It is a litany of Salvation History. God’s saving work in history. All which is fulfilled in Jesus Christ, once, for all. We are no longer saved by faith as the Propheta of old, we are saved by a Person, Jesus Christ.

 

[mtolympus]

It’s not at all about the word “is”, it’s about what faith does, what our faith gives us in order to prepare ourselves for our eternal life.

Taking snippets of scripture and using just the snippet to “prove” your point does not work well with Catholics. We know to read and understand scripture in the context in which it was written, especially the NT. Who was the writer, who is the audience, what is the purpose of the writing. Without taking all of that into consideration, snippets of scripture have little value as you have so unwittingly proved on this thread.

*Hebrews 11:1-16 Faith of the Ancients.
1 Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.
2 because of it the ancients were well attested.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, so that what is visible came into being through the invisible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a sacrifice greater than Cain’s. Through this he was attested to be righteous, God bearing witness to his gifts, and through this, though dead, he still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and “he was found no more because God had taken him.” Before he was taken up, he was attested to have pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him, for anyone who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
7 By faith Noah, warned about what was not yet seen, with reverence built an ark for the salvation of his household. Through this he condemned the world and inherited the righteousness that comes through faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, not knowing where he was to go.
9 By faith he sojourned in the promised land as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs of the same promise;
10 for he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and maker is God.
11 By faith he received power to generate, even though he was past the normal age—and Sarah herself was sterile—for he thought that the one who had made the promise was trustworthy.
12 So it was that there came forth from one man, himself as good as dead, descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sands on the seashore.
13 All these died in faith. They did not receive what had been promised but saw it and greeted it from afar and acknowledged themselves to be strangers and aliens on earth,
14 for those who speak thus show that they are seeking a homeland.
15 If they had been thinking of the land from which they had come, they would have had opportunity to return.
16 But now they desire a better homeland, a heavenly one. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
*

Thank you for posting this. I love the whole eleventh chapter of Hebrews. However, to make a specific point I may use one or two verses at a time. I guess I could just say read the Bible, but it seems to me it is more effective to narrow it down to a few specific verses. Never-the-less Hebrews 11:1 still means what it says. (Like it or not).

 

[mtolympus]

Faith is our hope in Jesus Christ. Our Hope is our Salvation. The examples of OT prophets in Hebrews 11 are for our understanding of what the sure Hope in God DID for individuals and people. It is a litany of Salvation History. God’s saving work in history. All which is fulfilled in Jesus Christ, once, for all. We are no longer saved by faith as the Propheta of old, we are saved by a Person, Jesus Christ.

I believe you do have a true faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Tarquin]

Can those “witnesses” be trusted who claimed to see Gold Plates?

Joseph Smith claimed a revelation which instructed:

*"Behold, I say unto you, that you must rely upon my word, which if you do with full purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates, and also of the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, which were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount, when he talked with the Lord face to face, and the miraculous **directors **which were given to Lehi while in the wilderness, on the borders of the Red Sea.

2 And it is **by your faith **that you shall obtain a view of them, even by that faith which was had by the prophets of old.

3 And after that you have obtained faith, and have seen them with your eyes, **you shall testify of **THEM, by the power of God;" *

If anyone testified to more than the plates, that would have been David Whitmer. But how valuable is a testimony, when the court requires a full disclosure - time, place, motive, **all the agents and instruments **involved - and a witness only testifies to only a **single **instrument? Does that mean the others did not exist? Or that they existed but describing them would invalidate the testimony of the single instrument?

It is suspicious, that God would tell his Prophet to have get some reliable witnesses to testify of a half dozen things, and those witnesses only say maybe they saw **one **thing at most. And the Prophet does not require more and does not get another, more reliable set of witnesses. And God says nothing about it. No censure, not sign of disappointment, nor sign of satisfaction. And the body of the Church does nothing. “Oh, well, God told us to do that, but it doesn’t matter.” There is no correction.

He doesn’t tell them what their punishment will be. There is no reward. It seems he does not care whether they complete tasks He gives them. This is one of the few places where I cannot figure out how a Mormon might reconcile this, *reasonably *and *consistently *with the way they attempt to reconcile other problems.

 

[Horton]

Thank you for posting this. I love the whole eleventh chapter of Hebrews. However, to make a specific point I may use one or two verses at a time. I guess I could just say read the Bible, but it seems to me it is more effective to narrow it down to a few specific verses. Never-the-less Hebrews 11:1 still means what it says. (Like it or not).

I know what verse 1 means. I believe you don’t know what it means as evidenced by your posts here.

 

[mtolympus]

I know what verse 1 means. I believe you don’t know what it means as evidenced by your posts here.

OK. What does it mean?

 

[Horton]

OK. What does it mean?

Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen

Taken in context of the whole chapter it means the author is telling the Hebrews that God is faithful and always has been. The author goes on to list the many times those in the OT had faith enough in God to do what seemed impossible or difficult. He then tells of the rewards for their faithfulness to God, and God’s faithfulness to His people.

The author gives the most extensive description of faith provided in the New Testament, though his interest does not lie in a technical, theological definition.** In view of the needs of his audience he describes what authentic faith does, not what it is in itself.** Through faith God guarantees the blessings to be hoped for from him, providing evidence in the gift of faith that what he promises will eventually come to pass (Heb 11:1). Because they accepted in faith God’s guarantee of the future, the biblical personages discussed in Heb 11:3–38 were themselves commended by God (Heb 11:2). Christians have even greater reason to remain firm in faith since they, unlike the Old Testament men and women of faith, have perceived the beginning of God’s fulfillment of his messianic promises

However, we are told in Hebrews 11:1 that when seeking (spiritual) truth, that “faith… is the evidence”. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Heb11:1)

Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen. You want to make the leap from a few words in this verse “faith…is the evidence” and use that to support Joseph Smith. It just doesn’t work. For the LDS to be right about what this verse means, you would have to claim that God allowed a world without faith in Him for 1800 years. If Hebrews 11 is correct, then the God spoken of in it would not allow for it. You can’t have it both ways.

However, we are told in Hebrews 11:1 that when seeking (spiritual) truth, that “faith… is the evidence”. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Heb11:1)

 

[mtolympus]

Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen

Taken in context of the whole chapter it means the author is telling the Hebrews that God is faithful and always has been. The author goes on to list the many times those in the OT had faith enough in God to do what seemed impossible or difficult. He then tells of the rewards for their faithfulness to God, and God’s faithfulness to His people.

Yes, I agree that by having faith in God we can do what seems impossible and that God rewards us for our faithfulness.

Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen. You want to make the leap from a few words in this verse “faith…is the evidence” and use that to support Joseph Smith. It just doesn’t work. For the LDS to be right about what this verse means, you would have to claim that God allowed a world without faith in Him for 1800 years. If Hebrews 11 is correct, then the God spoken of in it would not allow for it. You can’t have it both ways.

I am not making any leap. I am only trying to explain why LDS believe the way they do. Virtually, all who have become LDS and/or have remained LDS believe their understanding has come from the Holy Ghost and is not dependent on external evidence (even when this may “seem impossible”) My point is only that Hebrews 11:1 clearly tells us that faith…is the evidence and it does not tell us that we must have faith in external evidence which comes from the wisdom of man. We gain understanding of spiritual things through the Holy Ghost and not by the wisdom of man. As Paul explains:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor. 2:14)

 

[RebeccaJ]

I believe you do have a true faith in Jesus Christ.

I think you are using the word faith as a synonym of believe, which is fine by me. Belief is an ascent of the intellect to a truth. Our reason is not separate from our intellect. I would say that Mormonism has this sense of intellect, as created by God. Otherwise an individual Mormon would believe any and all truth claims.

Divine truth claims require divine evidence, and surely the Holy Spirit. This does not mean we forgo reason.

“Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope” 1 Peter 3:15

For Christians, our reason for hope is Jesus Christ.

 

[thephilosopher6]

Thank you for posting this. I love the whole eleventh chapter of Hebrews. However, to make a specific point I may use one or two verses at a time. I guess I could just say read the Bible, but it seems to me it is more effective to narrow it down to a few specific verses. Never-the-less Hebrews 11:1 still means what it says. (Like it or not).

You take faith to mean blind faith. Of course, you have to. Because if you didn’t take it to mean this than your entire faith would be collapse right before your eyes. Mormons seem to be good at finding loop holes to justify their belief. Your definition of faith is one of them.

But the Bible doesn’t seem to share your definition of faith. I have already presented the verses to show my argument in other post and don’t want to constantly keep re posting them so if you want to see the verses, then look to my former posts.

 

[thephilosopher6]

All religious dogma is based on faith. Do you think the tale of christ being born of a virgin is history? Have you ever studied mythology? Many Demigods are born of “virgins”, or impregnated by Sky Fathers, of which Jehovah is only another version, just as Jesus is just another Sun God, like Osiris or Mithras.

You’re kidding me right? You actually believe in these silly assertions? You sound like you’re into that pseudo-historical stuff. Lol The claims you have made have been refuted countless times.

 

[Horton]

Yes, I agree that by having faith in God we can do what seems impossible and that God rewards us for our faithfulness.

I am not making any leap. I am only trying to explain why LDS believe the way they do. Virtually, all who have become LDS and/or have remained LDS believe their understanding has come from the Holy Ghost and is not dependent on external evidence (even when this may “seem impossible”) My point is only that Hebrews 11:1 clearly tells us that faith…is the evidence and it does not tell us that we must have faith in external evidence which comes from the wisdom of man. We gain understanding of spiritual things through the Holy Ghost and not by the wisdom of man. As Paul explains:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor. 2:14)

But you are missing the very integral part of this verse in the middle: Faith is the realization of what is* hoped for **and evidence of things not seen
*
Faith is the realization of what is hoped for - Meaning our hope in Jesus Christ, our hope I eternal life, our hope of God’s grace. And I don’t mean hope as in I hope I win the lottery, but hope in faith building hope, hope that give us the grace to God’s will.

We Catholic do not rely on external evidence only for our faith. Yes it is part of it, but the reading of scripture, prayer, meditation, living the way God wants us to live is ALL part of building faith. We rely on the Holy Spirit for guidance and knowledge. To understand this you will have to put aside your LDS bias and open your mind to the fact the Catholics have been doing this for a very long time, more than 2000 years, and doctrine hasn’t changed in that 2000 years.

1 Corinthians 2:11-16
11 Among human beings, who knows what pertains to a person except the spirit of the person that is within? Similarly, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. 14 Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. 15 The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Again you need context and audience to discern what is being said here. Snippets do not tell the whole story.

 

[mtolympus]

I think you are using the word faith as a synonym of believe, which is fine by me. Belief is an ascent of the intellect to a truth. Our reason is not separate from our intellect. I would say that Mormonism has this sense of intellect, as created by God. Otherwise an individual Mormon would believe any and all truth claims.

Faith, hope and belief have overlapping definitions. IMO When someone believes in Christ, they may believe Christ is our savior. When one has faith in Christ their belief is strong enough that if Christ asks us to do something they will be willing to do it.

 

[Horton]

You asked if we Christians could prove all our beliefs. I replied questioning whether the LDS could prove any of JS claims. Also stating that Christianity can prove some which is better than none.

I’m guessing the answer is no as you have not even attempted to do so. You just, once again, state that faith in JS through reading the BoM is all you need.

You have yet to respond to this post.

 

[mtolympus]

Again you need context and audience to discern what is being said here. Snippets do not tell the whole story.

I think we mostly agree on the rest of what you said about faith.
If I was writing a doctorate thesis I should explain the context. However, when I am simply addressing a specific point I use only what is directly related. I figure everyone has a Bible available and can examine the context if they are interested.

 

[pnewton]

Faith, hope and belief have overlapping definitions.

Faith and hope are quite distinct from each other.

 

[pnewton]

Hebrews says "Faith is… the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)

Faith is not the evidence of things that are contradictory to other known facts. The account of the Gospels, to say nothing of the OT, have historic context that exists outside of the Bible. Accounts of the OT have been backed up historically by unexpected archaeological studies. Places, people and events that were only found in the Bible will occasionally turn up in a new discovery, providing at least some evidence it was written in an historic context. The apostles all willingly died as martyrs for their testimony.

As far as the Book of Mormon, there is no reason outside of Mormonism that suggests it was anything except something made up on the spot. An equivalency would be the discovery reformed Egyptian in Egypt, or DNA evidence showing a migration to America, found by non-Mormons.