Mormonism, Polygamy, and Warren Jeffs

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I guess I just have to categorize things:)

Marriage and polygamy in one column, living together and polyamory in another.
In terms of historical Mormon polygamy, Joseph Smith, his close associates and their wives were polyamorous. Smith added in a marriage rite, a Masonic rite, in order to make their relationships appear to have legitimacy. This is why I don’t see a categorical difference. 🙂

Also, legally speaking, the wives, lovers and children in these relationships have no legal recourse, such as inheritance, whether or not they have entered into a “marriage”. Any such marriage is not recognized as legal or binding in the US. It is one of the major issues with polygamous relationships, such as those of the FLDS. For them, this issue is compounded by the fact they have a commune lifestyle, where ownership is held under a corporation of the FLDS church.
 
The FLDS were so twisted, you really ought to leave them out of any discussion of polygamy.

I’ve just finished reading Escape by Carolyn Jessop. She was raised as a faithful member of the FLDS community and married to Merril Jessop, a high ranking member of the FLDS. She writes about Warren Jeffs, her life and her eventual escape. She was the first FLDS woman to have only succeeded, e.g. being able to keep her children and stay out.

If anyone has any doubt about the FLDS or Warren Jeffs, rest assured he was a monster of the worse sort who turned the FLDS community into a degenerate cult of the worse kind. Carolyn Jessop details a non-stop stream of abuse, both physical and emotional of the woman and children even before Warren Jeffs. He just extended it to the men.

The FLDS was polygamous but that was just the way an evil man exerted his hold on an otherwise naive people. Their particular practice of it was so toxic I don’t think you can drew much conclusion.

At first I was skeptical because–well, you can find unhappy marriages under any system. Even if you consider her disgruntled and unhappy, she provides a lot of objective evidence of abuse that cannot be ignored. And IMHO, she’s a credible witness. It was shortly after her escape and meeting with the Utah attorney general that Utah seized their property and they fled both AZ and UT.
Well, they are polygamous, that is a reality. A fact.

I do agree with you that their culture has a toxic aspect to it. At the same time, I’m sure the majority of the FLDS love their children, and want the best for them, as much as anyone else does. They’ve lost a sense of normalcy, having no other experience, what is toxic, is normal to them.

In a sociology class I had a few years ago, this was discussed but using the example of children who grow up in a home where physical abuse is normal. When outside intervention is able to occur, most often the people (children and adults) are not aware at all that everyone else is living without physical abuse. For people in this situation, especially children that have never known anything different, it is their normal world.

The view of the abnormal as normal is a very real cultural issue with the FLDS. By abnormal I mean criminally abnormal, such as child marriages, rape, physical abuse, child neglect, financial fraud, etc. All of these things are perpetrated under a banner of “God’s Will”.

Honestly speaking rcmcmullan, I see no difference in the history of mainstream Mormonism. Smith brought in the same toxicity, under the same banner. LDS have the same cultural issue as they continue to view this as “normal”, and anyone who says otherwise is “anti” and/or persecutorial of Mormonism.
 
Honestly speaking rcmcmullan, I see no difference in the history of mainstream Mormonism. Smith brought in the same toxicity, under the same banner. LDS have the same cultural issue as they continue to view this as “normal”, and anyone who says otherwise is “anti” and/or persecutorial of Mormonism.
Did Joseph Smith abuse children, or did he marry consenting women?
 
I am against polygamy because I support traditional Christian marriage. However, in the current climate, I do not understand why polygamy remains illegal.

I think the Churches should do something to separate real Christian Marriage from other forms of marriage, including civil marriage. Religious Christian marriage should be set apart from the the other forms so that it remains distinct and special.

Gay marriage and polygamy could be called commitment bonds or something like that. Only monogamous Christian marriage should have the name marriage in my view. If this is unacceptable, then maybe we should change the terms we use for marriage so that it is separated from the rest.
 
Non Mormons have read sources where Joseph Smith had over 30 wives, but the Mormons today deny it. Mormons deny today beliefs they had yesterday. Warren Jeffs is a fundamentalist Mormon.
 
Did Joseph Smith abuse children, or did he marry consenting women?
wivesofjosephsmith.org/

He was not a pedophile, he did like teenage girls and older. He was predatory in the sense that he would invite young women (16-20) to stay in his household, and then proceed to have affairs with them. The first his wife caught him was with Fanny Alger, who was a 16 year old boarder.

As for “consent”, he used coercion and threats with some, angels with flaming swords, his own standing with God could be put in danger if they declined, others consented because they believed he was a prophet and promised them eternal rewards. A couple of women who spurned his advances report that he vowed to smear their character if they said anything.
 
RebeccaJ, you are making an enormous leap when you say what the early pioneer saints practised was in any way similar to what was going on within the FLDS. You’ve said a lot of unflattering things about Mormons before and I don’t expect much better but I don’t think you really appreciate how disturbing it is for faithful LDS, who share a lot of the early history and scriptures with the FLDS, see the ghastly result of their intentional abuse.

When I was a missionary, I would occasionally visit people who told us that according to their interpretation of the Bible, they had license to do whatever they wanted with… well, women. And they would quote real Bible verses but their interpretations were, uh, not in harmony with other scriptures, let’s say.

I know you look for every and any oppurtunity to knock the LDS faith but this really is a tragedy and using it to promote your personal vendetta is ill advised.
 
Problem is Mormonism is constantly changing, revelation something new to be learned vs Socrates who said there is nothing new under the sun, meaning human nature is the same 10,000 years ago or today.

Only the message and mission of Jesus Christ is different…Who became Man…and the Incarnation.

There are too many conflicting stories about Joseph Smith, as well as his actions contradicting Christ.

I would also tend to stay with Sacred Scriptures approximating the establishment of Christianity.

Jesus Christ replaced the old temple. Jesus Christ is the living Temple.
 
RebeccaJ, you are making an enormous leap when you say what the early pioneer saints practised was in any way similar to what was going on within the FLDS. You’ve said a lot of unflattering things about Mormons before and I don’t expect much better but I don’t think you really appreciate how disturbing it is for faithful LDS, who share a lot of the early history and scriptures with the FLDS, see the ghastly result of their intentional abuse.

When I was a missionary, I would occasionally visit people who told us that according to their interpretation of the Bible, they had license to do whatever they wanted with… well, women. And they would quote real Bible verses but their interpretations were, uh, not in harmony with other scriptures, let’s say.

I know you look for every and any oppurtunity to knock the LDS faith but this really is a tragedy and using it to promote your personal vendetta is ill advised.
Don’t you see that Mormons treat the Bible the very same way as the people you describe? Joseph Smith interpreted it to conform to his own teachings. Example: there is no Jew or Christian that ever interpreted the Jewish or Christian scriptures to mean the existence of multiple Gods – Joseph Smith, in the 19th century, was the first. He even rewrote the KJV to make it conform to his new religion, and called it “An Inspired Revision of the Authorized (King James) Version,” thus putting himself on the same level as the sacred authors.

And the Mormon invention of the Great Apostasy is appalling, as is Smith calling the Catholic Church “a great and abominable church, whose foundation is the devil, the whore of all the earth, which leads people to hell.” Smith further accused the CC of altering the Bible, but that was his game.

The Scriptures you say you shared with the FLDS you got from the Catholic Church, which you allege was apostate at the end of the first century. The Bible per se did not exist until the end of the Fourth Century. The New Testament consists of 27 of the
Catholic Church’s own writings
. So you got your Scriptures from a Church you allege had been apostate for three centuries!

Jim Dandy
 
wivesofjosephsmith.org/

He was not a pedophile, he did like teenage girls and older. He was predatory in the sense that he would invite young women (16-20) to stay in his household, and then proceed to have affairs with them. The first his wife caught him was with Fanny Alger, who was a 16 year old boarder.

As for “consent”, he used coercion and threats with some, angels with flaming swords, his own standing with God could be put in danger if they declined, others consented because they believed he was a prophet and promised them eternal rewards. A couple of women who spurned his advances report that he vowed to smear their character if they said anything.
Fawn Brodie documented 48 wives in her second edition of No Man Knows My History, The Life of Joseph Smith.

I recently learned that Fawn Brodie was the niece of LDS President David O. McKay (died 1970)! No wonder she had such unprecedented access to Mormon documents for her biography of Smith! She was a Mormon when she started writing this book, but not when she finished.
 
Fawn Brodie documented 48 wives in her second edition of No Man Knows My History, The Life of Joseph Smith.

I recently learned that Fawn Brodie was the niece of LDS President David O. McKay (died 1970)! No wonder she had such unprecedented access to Mormon documents for her biography of Smith! She was a Mormon when she started writing this book, but not when she finished.
I haven’t read her book. It got to a point where reading more and more Mormon material (for or against) became pointless for me. Other than to fuel an Anger that I didn’t want or need. A person can only take so much.

I did read “Leaving The Saints”, which, was a very odd read. Pretty much, I’m immersed in Mormonism by the fact of where I live, where I worked for over 20 years, and that my entire family are Mormon. Reading of others experiences is redundant. But, Brodie’s book…people either like it or hate it. I can’t stomach another detailed walk through the depths of deception. It sends me into a state I’d rather not be in!
 
RebeccaJ, you are making an enormous leap when you say what the early pioneer saints practised was in any way similar to what was going on within the FLDS.
I don’t think so. Certainly, Warren Jeffs is 1000 shades worse than Joseph Smith, but the methods are the same.
You’ve said a lot of unflattering things about Mormons before and I don’t expect much better but I don’t think you really appreciate how disturbing it is for faithful LDS, who share a lot of the early history and scriptures with the FLDS, see the ghastly result of their intentional abuse.
Yes, I understand this, and I’m on board with you on this point. It is ghastly, but both practices have eery similarities, which, LDS ignore.
When I was a missionary, I would occasionally visit people who told us that according to their interpretation of the Bible, they had license to do whatever they wanted with… well, women. And they would quote real Bible verses but their interpretations were, uh, not in harmony with other scriptures, let’s say.
You do realize that Joseph Smith was adept at this same practice, right? Please read the accounts of the women who Smith seduced and tell me in all honesty, if it was your own daughter or wife, you wouldn’t be out to tar and feather the guy yourself. If not, well, I can’t say I feel any empathy for your position, at all.
I know you look for every and any oppurtunity to knock the LDS faith but this really is a tragedy and using it to promote your personal vendetta is ill advised.
I’m not promoting anything but truth rcmcmullan, and as usual, you are showing the LDS propensity for not addressing the issues, but instead going for a personal attack. I can’t say I’m surprised.

Perhaps you should look to your own reasoning for being aghast on one hand, but not the other, and why you are here at this opportune time to use this tragedy to support Joseph Smith in his extramarital sexual affairs, which he claimed were divinely commanded.
 
wivesofjosephsmith.org/

He was not a pedophile, he did like teenage girls and older. He was predatory in the sense that he would invite young women (16-20) to stay in his household, and then proceed to have affairs with them. The first his wife caught him was with Fanny Alger, who was a 16 year old boarder.

As for “consent”, he used coercion and threats with some, angels with flaming swords, his own standing with God could be put in danger if they declined, others consented because they believed he was a prophet and promised them eternal rewards. A couple of women who spurned his advances report that he vowed to smear their character if they said anything.
Smith’s youngest wife was 14 years old.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
Don’t you see that Mormons treat the Bible the very same way as the people you describe? Joseph Smith interpreted it to conform to his own teachings. Example: there is no Jew or Christian that ever interpreted the Jewish or Christian scriptures to mean the existence of multiple Gods – Joseph Smith, in the 19th century, was the first. He even rewrote the KJV to make it conform to his new religion, and called it “An Inspired Revision of the Authorized (King James) Version,” thus putting himself on the same level as the sacred authors.

And the Mormon invention of the Great Apostasy is appalling, as is Smith calling the Catholic Church “a great and abominable church, whose foundation is the devil, the whore of all the earth, which leads people to hell.” Smith further accused the CC of altering the Bible, but that was his game.

The Scriptures you say you shared with the FLDS you got from the Catholic Church, which you allege was apostate at the end of the first century. The Bible per se did not exist until the end of the Fourth Century. The New Testament consists of 27 of the
Catholic Church’s own writings
. So you got your Scriptures from a Church you allege had been apostate for three centuries!

Jim Dandy
👍

Unanswerable point that I have put to SDA’s and JW’s, doesn’t do any good of course, they just ignore truths that are inconvenient .
 
The SDA’s, JW’s, and Mormons all came from the same source, the Stone Campbell movement, Restorationists and intensely anti-Catholic.

There is hardly ever a time the Watchtower magazine has something distorted and anti-Catholic in it. The Mormons are taught we and the JW’s and SDA’s and all of Christianity is corrupt, the SDA’s refuse to acknowledge history of the Church and are the ones least likely to become Catholic.

Anti anti anti…The Lord has risen. The Lord makes us free. Christ is the light of the world, promising us new life.
 
There were some things in Carolyn Jessop’s book that made me think that polygamy is a really bad system. It’s not just that the woman and children don’t see much of their father but that the whole thing turns into a competition. I expected that the wives would have worked together in some kind of harmonious friendship but that was definitely not her experience. They were constantly back-stabbing each other and vying for attention. It seems this sort of thing is pretty common. The Biblical accounts of polygamy seem to feature this same thing-bad feelings for the other wives.

I work with a woman who I’ve known for many years. She went back to her home in Nigeria recently for her father’s funeral. Turns out her father had four other wives than her mother. The main comment she made is that it was nothing but a constant struggle with the other wives. And it never ended.

The FLDS men were supposed to be fair with their wives but in Carolyn’s case, no such thing happened. And it affects the kids too. The less popular wives become slaves to the more popular and that kind of social structure extends to the kids–they become subservient to the kids of the preferred wives.

I suppose if people could be better behaved, if the wives could work together and the husbands were fairer, the situation would improve. When it comes to baby making, polygamy really excels but I don’t see that as much of a priority in modern society with good health care. So what is the point of it anyway?
 
When it comes to baby making, polygamy really excels
I beg to differ. Polygamy excels only in making more babies for one particular man – and only up to a point – but it does not increase the fertility of society as a whole, and often hurts the fertility of individual women and families. It reduces the fertility of women (the most important element in growing a population), and it deprives other men of wives. In a population of seven men and seven women, there would be no more babies if one man married all seven women than if each man married one woman. In fact, there would be fewer, because the polygamous man’s attentions would be divided among the women, giving each less opportunity to conceive, whereas if each woman has a man to her own, she is subject of his continual attention.

What about circumstances where women outnumber men? The argument still holds in those cases, because the women would need to outnumber the men by a whole lot, so drastic is the reduction of female fertility under polygamy. Studies of nineteenth century Utah polygamy have shown that the introduction of a new wife to a Mormon household would lower the average lifetime fertility of the other wives by one child each. The result was a lower birth rate for Mormons. (Documentation here.) This means that if a woman were likely to have four children in a monogamous union, then if her husband took a second wife, she would now be likely to have only three. And if the husband took a third wife, she could be expected to have only two. And the second wife would also be less fertile in the same way. Continuing with the assumption that the expected number of children per wife in a monogamous relationship is four, here are the numbers for the overall fertility of a polygamous family as the number of wives increases:

One wife: 4 x 1 = 4
Two wives: 3 x 2 = 6
Three wives: 2 x 3 = 6
Four wives: 1 x 4 = 4

Now I have chosen the number four just for convenience, to illustrate a principle. On this scenario, marriage to four wives produces no more children than having one, and actually yields a decrease in the population. Even if the number of likely children was higher then, say six or seven or eight, there would still be a peak number beyond which taking more wives becomes counterproductive, and at every step, an additional wife would be tragically detrimental to the others. Consider that if a man had six wives and took a seventh, the last wife would decrease the total fertility of the other women by one child per woman. That means, she would need to have six children of her own just for the family to break even, and she would have to do this while sharing the attentions of her husband with the other women.

Let’s return to the figures in my table. Suppose that in a monogamous society, there were one other man available to marry the second wife. Already, that would produce a greater number of children total, because each couple would have four children, a total of eight, while the last two wives would have some chance to marry someone else. Again, if we stick to the assumption of four children, two men with one woman each are more fertile and one man with four women to himself. That is a 200% rate of increase for the monogamous situation (4:8) against a small decrease in the polygamous case (5:4). If the normal rate of birth were something higher, like seven, one man with three wives would have only a slight edge over two monogamous couples, fifteen to fourteen.

This shows that polygamy is not, and in the case of the Mormons was not, a means to increase seed unto the Lord, the one justification for polygamy allowed in the Book of Mormon. (Jacob 2:30) Dare I suggest, however, that the diminishing of female fertility is an indirect offense to the chastity of women, the Lord’s love of which is the principle grounds for opposing polygamy in the same text? (Jacob 2:29) The whole beauty of sexual purity is that it reserves sexual activity for those contexts in which it is able to give rise to life through love. But a marital situation that distances a woman from her husband’s love at the further cost of diminishing her ability to give life reduces the value of sexuality simply. By implication, that lessons the value of chastity as well, since it degrades the ultimately fruitful ends to which premarital virginity is ordered.
 
One man with four wives makes 4X babies than one man with one wife. In terms of time, men are involved in reproduction for maybe an hour, women usually nine months.
 
One man with four wives makes 4X babies than one man with one wife. In terms of time, men are involved in reproduction for maybe an hour, women usually nine months.
Do you understand my argument? You are merely asserting the very assumption that I just refuted. I have given both demographic evidence and an explanation of the underlying reasons for it. Do you have evidence to the contrary? If you can provide none, then we must conclude that you disagree with me lot because the evidence is on your side, but because you don’t like the conclusion. If your standard for judging evidence is simply whether or not it suits the desired conclusion, then you have no right to ever argue from evidence for your own case, and you thus have little reason to engage in apologetics at all.

And by the way, it takes a man more than an hour to conceive a child, since most individual unions to not result in conception. In an average case a fertile couples can take months to conceive even when they are trying. Not to mention that when there is emotional distance between a man and a woman, as will happen in polygamous relationships, they will come together less often. This is common sense.
 
I should also mention that your initial emphasis on male fertility misses the point. Female fertility is the decisive factor. One might easily imagine a man multiplying his progeny by multiplying his wives, only by failure to consider the female perspective. The question you have to ask is this:
Is a woman going to have as many children when her husband shares his attention with three other women as when he is devoted only to her?

How can anyone think the answer to this is “yes”? It is not to be believed. Even if we didn’t know what the evidence is, we should be able to predict the answer, which the evidence indeed bears out.
 
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