Mormonism, Polygamy, and Warren Jeffs

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Thank you. If you stick by that, I’d appreciate it.
Ad hominem is deflection as it inevitably derails threads when used consistently.
Not inevitably. I think that I’ve done a good job of sticking to the point despite your heckling and personal insinuations against me. (the “deflecting” accusation which you still refuse to substantiate"_=)
You have accussed a poster previously of supporting certain evil practise in a most dubious manner via semantics, that is what I was referering, although that is not the sole example of deflection I have observed on this thread alone.
Your understanding of what I said is as dubious as your spelling of accused, practice, and referring (or were you trying to say refereeing?).

I simply pointed out that the poster’s grotesque claim [that Warren Jeffs’ actions are the logical extension of Joseph Smith’s teachings] actually empowers pedophile monsters like Warren Jeffs. That if he actually cares about Warren Jeffs’ victims, that he really should stop broadcasting statements that make Jeffs seem more powerful and authoritative in his own community.

To others: Is there actually a site “ignore function”?
 
I stand by my statement,
But there was no statement. You say I’m deflecting. Deflecting what?

Seems to me like you and Jhak are deflecting my question about deflection, by resorting to sanctimonious histrionics and by playing victim.
Poor show.
I thought we were having a discussion, not putting on a show.
 
Because of Judas’ apostasy (Acts 1:25) and death, the Twelve needed to be restored. The eleven chose Matthias.
According to Peter there are two requirements to be a member of the Twelve. The two requirements are: 
a) Witness the resurrected Lord 
b) Been in the company of the twelve while the Lord walked on earth.
These requirements limit the council membership to the first century. After all the men that walked with the twelve, while the Lord walked the earth, died; no one else qualified. The Twelve was never meant to be on going. This was the only time eleven selected a twelfth; one apostasy, one replacement. Revelation 21:14: Peter/Cephas/Rock, James son of Zebedee, John the Evangelist, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Jude, Simon the Zealot, and Matthias.
 
Trying to rebut your arguments would probably constitute proselytizing, but I hope I’ve made my point that the LDS Church position is not that the Catholic Church was responsible for the apostasy.
Then could you provide an official LDS paper to support your views, approved and signed by the highest authority of the LDS, that makes it official doctrine/dogma/teaching?
 
Thank you for getting right to the point and explaining your church’s position on the issue of scriptural authority, Denise. I would also be interested to hear other Catholics confirm or elaborate on what you’ve said. I’d never heard it said that the Apostles took up the writing of scripture on their own initiative. That would explain why some Catholics seem to view tradition nearly on the same level as scripture. (If I’ve got the last part wrong, please correct me).
I think you should look into why the various NT books were written.

Start with St. Mark, to help your research.

Answer this question: Why did Mark write the Gospel of Mark? And cite the chapter and verse where Mark claims authorship of the Gospel of Mark (table of contents and title are excluded, these were added later)?

Once you locate the chapter and verse where Mark claims authorship of the Gospel, then answer this:

How do you know the gospel of Mark was actually written by Mark? Why do you accept it as part of the Bible? as Inspired? as the word of God?
 
Then could you provide an official LDS paper to support your views, approved and signed by the highest authority of the LDS, that makes it official doctrine/dogma/teaching?
I doubt that you would ever get such a thing. mormons do not like to codify their “doctrines,” if something is written down and sworn to, it makes it very difficult for them to deny or change it when circumstances or “revelation” brings changes. This always gives them “plausible deniability” in case they get forced into a corner. mormons do not like to get pinned down to anything.
 
Thank you for getting right to the point and explaining your church’s position on the issue of scriptural authority, Denise. I would also be interested to hear other Catholics confirm or elaborate on what you’ve said. I’d never heard it said that the Apostles took up the writing of scripture on their own initiative. That would explain why some Catholics seem to view tradition nearly on the same level as scripture. (If I’ve got the last part wrong, please correct me).
Sacred Scripture and Sacred Apostolic Tradition flow from the same source: the teaching of Christ through His Apostles to His Church. The Church’s Magisterium (the teaching office of the Church) is the only rightful interpreter of both Scripture and Tradition.

The writings that eventually – at the end of the fourth century – came to be included in one volume and called the New Testament were written to individuals (Luke/Acts, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, 3 John), to local branches of the Church founded by St, Paul (Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians), to Jewish Christians (Hebrews, though it has no salutation), to a local Church community called “the elect lady and her children” (2 John), to local branches of the Church in Asia Minor (1 and probably 2 Peter), and to “the seven Churches in Asia” (Revelation). Only Matthew, Mark, John, 1 John, and Jude were written to the Church in general. Actually, they have no salutation at all. James is addressed “to the twelve tribes in the Dispersion.” All Christians belonged to the Church called Catholic (Universal) in or before A.D. 107; they soon thereafter became known as Catholics.

Many of the NT writings were anonymous (e.g., Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Hebrews,1,2,3 John). The Catholic Church added the authors’ names (with the exception of Hebrews).

Since Luke/Acts, Timothy, Titus, Philemon, and 3 John are private correspondence, why would we think they are “the inspired Word of God”?

Since all of the letters to the various local Churches founded by St. Paul were personal letters from him, how did they come to be regarded as Scripture by the entire Church?

How did personal letters to local Churches in Asia and Asia Minor find their way into the canon of Scripture?

The answer to these questions is, they were recognized and canonized as inspired Scripture by the Catholic Church, whose members wrote them. IOW, as the Encyclopedia of Early Christianity states, they are “the Church’s own writings.”

The Catholic Church laboriously copied the Scriptures by hand for fifteen centuries, until the printing press was invented. The originals, called autographs, did not survive antiquity. All we have are copies of copies of copies – no one knows how many copies intervened between the originals and the first surviving fragments and manuscripts. All of the copies were made by Catholic hands.

The New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings.

The “great apostasy” is pure myth.

Jim Dandy
 
Clearly yes. Otherwise the Apostles would have continued to replenish the Quorum of the Twelve, as they did at the beginning of the Book of Acts. No apostles, no Christian priesthood, and definitely no “apostolic” church.
The removal of priesthood authority in the messianic age is expressly denied in scripture on the basis of divine covenant - not just God’s covenant with men, but the covenant of the Father and the Son. This is a covenant between two divine parties, neither of whom can violate or alter any term of that covenant. The text that proves this is the entire argument of Jeremiah 33, which begins with a prophecy of the messiah coming, restoring the Kingdom so that the “voice of the bride and the voice of the bridegroom” (33:11) return to the land. (cf. John 3:29.) Then the messiah takes up his kingship and becomes inheritor of the Davidic covenant, which contains these terms:

For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. (Jer 33:17-22)

I can’t imagine how much more clearly the point could be made. Here was have a text that is about the Messianic kingdom, which interprets the Messiah’s rule of Israel. It verifies the continuance of the priesthood as a fulfillment of the Levitical covenant, a term of the covenant with David, and ensures both claim on the basis of the creation covenant. Three of the five covenants God makes in the Old Testament are invoked here, so that God basically invests his entire credibility as a covenant-maker on the perpetuity of the priesthood in Zion, effective upon the coming of the messiah. Moreover, there can be no contingency to the fulfillment of these promises, since they are made with Christ, who cannot violate the terms of the covenant and forfeit these promises. It would require a break in the relationship of the Father and Son - a dissolution of the godhead - to remove the priesthood from the earth.
How else can you explain the cessation of scripture?
When has God’s authority ever been present on earth without the generation of holy writ?
The real question is for you: Why do you assume that continual scriptural revelation is necessary for the Church? Can you find that taught in scripture? Is not your source for this assumption the fact that Mormonism claims that there must always be scriptural revelation? If so, then you have not posed a real problem for us, since the dilemma only arises from presupposing a Mormon understanding of revelation. It is a sufficient answer merely to note that we do not grant the assumption that makes this question a problem.

That is a sufficient answer, but not the only answer, nor even the best. Rather, there is warrant from Scripture itself so show that the presence of continual scriptural revelation is not intrinsic to the operations of divine authority. For instance, we have no reason to believe that there was any Scripture in the time of the patriarchs or before them. There were divine covenants and valid priestly offerings, but no special texts. (Of course, Mormonism claims Abraham wrote scripture, but again, you would have to appeal to your own principles, assuming Mormonism from the outset in order to make that argument.) Moreover, even on Mormon assumptions, we know that there was a Levitical priesthood operating in Israel during the so-called intertestamental period. This is clear from the fact that Zacharias not only serves in the Temple but gets a revelation there in Luke 1.

Moreover, the New Testament teaches that “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached.” (Luke 16:16) This passage poses a problem for anyone who thinks that the same rules that make scriptural revelation normative in the Church would be the same in the new covenant as in the old. According to Catholicism, the reason there does not need to be new Scripture is that the definitive revelation of God is not a text but the person of Christ himself. The Incarnation as such contains all the truth that God has for man. This is not to say that it exhausts the truth and limits our potential knowledge, but the exact opposite: it points out that an infinite content has already been communicated by God. That is why the author of Hebrews writes, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.” Clearly a change in the mode of divine speech is indicated here, and no theology about the nature of revelation can afford to overlook it. Yet your assumptions demand that we overlook it, for you are claiming a kind of eternal necessity for new scripture that does not fit with the Biblical teaching.

This does not mean God is silent, since he certainly speaks through the Church in the person of Christ, or that he is powerless, since he could hypothetically inspire more text. It does mean we have no right to assume that he must do so, as your question implies. The real issue about the canon, after all, has never been about whether God still speaks, but *how *he does so.
 
Cowboy Pete…

Tradition is the authentic understanding Jesus Christ given us not just one person, but 12 apostles who were witnesses to Christ, tradition the manner of interpreting Scripture and how it is lived out in the history of salvation history.

Mormonism rejects the salvation history of the people of God. Only Mormonism is right and only in the alleged visions of Joseph Smith…a solitary individual…who in contrast to the apostles and their successors and all those who worked to put together the Sacred Books of Scripture deemed worthy of public revelation…

Smith did it alone. No challenges. Nobody contradicting him, blind faith…

Christ’s Church is the only church He founded…on Peter and His apostles. The Tradition of our faith and its foundations and practices have continued consistently for 2,000 years.

Small tradition are those ecclesial traditions that fit a particular time.

Mormonism changes its doctrines all the time…because it is based on man. In man we find only change and self-glorifcation.
 
For a complete understanding of Tradition, read Tradition and the Church by Msgr. George Agius, D.D., J.C.D., revised and published by TAN Books in 2005.
 
The removal of priesthood authority in the messianic age is expressly denied in scripture on the basis of divine covenant - not just God’s covenant with men, but the covenant of the Father and the Son. This is a covenant between two divine parties, neither of whom can violate or alter any term of that covenant. The text that proves this is the entire argument of Jeremiah 33, which begins with a prophecy of the messiah coming, restoring the Kingdom so that the “voice of the bride and the voice of the bridegroom” (33:11) return to the land. (cf. John 3:29.) Then the messiah takes up his kingship and becomes inheritor of the Davidic covenant, which contains these terms:

For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. (Jer 33:17-22)

I can’t imagine how much more clearly the point could be made. Here was have a text that is about the Messianic kingdom, which interprets the Messiah’s rule of Israel. It verifies the continuance of the priesthood as a fulfillment of the Levitical covenant, a term of the covenant with David, and ensures both claim on the basis of the creation covenant. Three of the five covenants God makes in the Old Testament are invoked here, so that God basically invests his entire credibility as a covenant-maker on the perpetuity of the priesthood in Zion, effective upon the coming of the messiah. Moreover, there can be no contingency to the fulfillment of these promises, since they are made with Christ, who cannot violate the terms of the covenant and forfeit these promises. It would require a break in the relationship of the Father and Son - a dissolution of the godhead - to remove the priesthood from the earth.

The real question is for you: Why do you assume that continual scriptural revelation is necessary for the Church? Can you find that taught in scripture? Is not your source for this assumption the fact that Mormonism claims that there must always be scriptural revelation? If so, then you have not posed a real problem for us, since the dilemma only arises from presupposing a Mormon understanding of revelation. It is a sufficient answer merely to note that we do not grant the assumption that makes this question a problem.

That is a sufficient answer, but not the only answer, nor even the best. Rather, there is warrant from Scripture itself so show that the presence of continual scriptural revelation is not intrinsic to the operations of divine authority. For instance, we have no reason to believe that there was any Scripture in the time of the patriarchs or before them. There were divine covenants and valid priestly offerings, but no special texts. (Of course, Mormonism claims Abraham wrote scripture, but again, you would have to appeal to your own principles, assuming Mormonism from the outset in order to make that argument.) Moreover, even on Mormon assumptions, we know that there was a Levitical priesthood operating in Israel during the so-called intertestamental period. This is clear from the fact that Zacharias not only serves in the Temple but gets a revelation there in Luke 1.

Moreover, the New Testament teaches that “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached.” (Luke 16:16) This passage poses a problem for anyone who thinks that the same rules that make scriptural revelation normative in the Church would be the same in the new covenant as in the old. According to Catholicism, the reason there does not need to be new Scripture is that the definitive revelation of God is not a text but the person of Christ himself. The Incarnation as such contains all the truth that God has for man. This is not to say that it exhausts the truth and limits our potential knowledge, but the exact opposite: it points out that an infinite content has already been communicated by God. That is why the author of Hebrews writes, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.” Clearly a change in the mode of divine speech is indicated here, and no theology about the nature of revelation can afford to overlook it. Yet your assumptions demand that we overlook it, for you are claiming a kind of eternal necessity for new scripture that does not fit with the Biblical teaching.

This does not mean God is silent, since he certainly speaks through the Church in the person of Christ, or that he is powerless, since he could hypothetically inspire more text. It does mean we have no right to assume that he must do so, as your question implies. The real issue about the canon, after all, has never been about whether God still speaks, but *how *he does so.
Thanks for this, Soren1. I look forward to Pete’s reply. That Christ is God’s revelation to man, that he is God’s only Word, and that God has no other Word, seems to be a difficult truth to grasp in the Mormon faith tradition. Thanks for another excellent explanation of our faith.
 
Thanks for this, Soren1. I look forward to Pete’s reply. That Christ is God’s revelation to man, that he is God’s only Word, and that God has no other Word, seems to be a difficult truth to grasp in the Mormon faith tradition. Thanks for another excellent explanation of our faith.
bump
 
The removal of priesthood authority in the messianic age is expressly denied in scripture on the basis of divine covenant - not just God’s covenant with men, but the covenant of the Father and the Son. This is a covenant between two divine parties, neither of whom can violate or alter any term of that covenant. The text that proves this is the entire argument of Jeremiah 33, which begins with a prophecy of the messiah coming, restoring the Kingdom so that the “voice of the bride and the voice of the bridegroom” (33:11) return to the land. (cf. John 3:29.) Then the messiah takes up his kingship and becomes inheritor of the Davidic covenant, which contains these terms:

For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. (Jer 33:17-22)

I can’t imagine how much more clearly the point could be made. Here was have a text that is about the Messianic kingdom, which interprets the Messiah’s rule of Israel. It verifies the continuance of the priesthood as a fulfillment of the Levitical covenant, a term of the covenant with David, and ensures both claim on the basis of the creation covenant. Three of the five covenants God makes in the Old Testament are invoked here, so that God basically invests his entire credibility as a covenant-maker on the perpetuity of the priesthood in Zion, effective upon the coming of the messiah. Moreover, there can be no contingency to the fulfillment of these promises, since they are made with Christ, who cannot violate the terms of the covenant and forfeit these promises. It would require a break in the relationship of the Father and Son - a dissolution of the godhead - to remove the priesthood from the earth.

The real question is for you: Why do you assume that continual scriptural revelation is necessary for the Church? Can you find that taught in scripture? Is not your source for this assumption the fact that Mormonism claims that there must always be scriptural revelation? If so, then you have not posed a real problem for us, since the dilemma only arises from presupposing a Mormon understanding of revelation. It is a sufficient answer merely to note that we do not grant the assumption that makes this question a problem.

That is a sufficient answer, but not the only answer, nor even the best. Rather, there is warrant from Scripture itself so show that the presence of continual scriptural revelation is not intrinsic to the operations of divine authority. For instance, we have no reason to believe that there was any Scripture in the time of the patriarchs or before them. There were divine covenants and valid priestly offerings, but no special texts. (Of course, Mormonism claims Abraham wrote scripture, but again, you would have to appeal to your own principles, assuming Mormonism from the outset in order to make that argument.) Moreover, even on Mormon assumptions, we know that there was a Levitical priesthood operating in Israel during the so-called intertestamental period. This is clear from the fact that Zacharias not only serves in the Temple but gets a revelation there in Luke 1.

Moreover, the New Testament teaches that “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached.” (Luke 16:16) This passage poses a problem for anyone who thinks that the same rules that make scriptural revelation normative in the Church would be the same in the new covenant as in the old. According to Catholicism, the reason there does not need to be new Scripture is that the definitive revelation of God is not a text but the person of Christ himself. The Incarnation as such contains all the truth that God has for man. This is not to say that it exhausts the truth and limits our potential knowledge, but the exact opposite: it points out that an infinite content has already been communicated by God. That is why the author of Hebrews writes, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.” Clearly a change in the mode of divine speech is indicated here, and no theology about the nature of revelation can afford to overlook it. Yet your assumptions demand that we overlook it, for you are claiming a kind of eternal necessity for new scripture that does not fit with the Biblical teaching.

This does not mean God is silent, since he certainly speaks through the Church in the person of Christ, or that he is powerless, since he could hypothetically inspire more text. It does mean we have no right to assume that he must do so, as your question implies. The real issue about the canon, after all, has never been about whether God still speaks, but *how *he does so.
bump
 
I heard this morning that Warren Jeffs is in a coma induced by doctors.
 
That was the report, today the report is that he wasn’t in a coma.

He also has a history of self-inflicted harm while in jail…trying to set himself up as a martyr.
Ah, how insightful you are, Rebecca. He’s trying to imitate Joseph Smith and become a “martyr” in jail in the eyes of his followers. Sob sob sniff sniff. But he’s simply a child molester on an unimaginable scale.
 
Just read this, which I didn’t know.

mormonwiki.com/Great_Apostasy

QUOTE

It is important to understand that the priesthood is not a group of priests, but the authority to act in the name of God.

END QUOTE
Oh yes, that’s hugely important to understanding any LDS statement about the priesthood.

@Soren, I’ll respond to that lengthier post after church. Thank you.
 
I live in Utah and there is not a Catholic here who will tell you that things have always been chummy - in fact, far from it.

Yes, some of you Utah Catholics like to pretend, for example, that Brigham Young and the Mormons didn’t help you build your Cathedral in Salt Lake Valley, and welcome you to our community when other Americans were calling you “evil papists.” Thank heavens that the good Catholics I grew up with were less shrill and ungrateful.
I think you should look into why the various NT books were written.
Start with St. Mark, to help your research.
Answer this question: Why did Mark write the Gospel of Mark? And cite the chapter and verse where Mark claims authorship of the Gospel of Mark (table of contents and title are excluded, these were added later)?
Nifty. Thank you, I will do that and will get back to your questions.
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hosemonkey:
Then could you provide an official LDS paper to support your views, approved and signed by the highest authority of the LDS, that makes it official doctrine/dogma/teaching?
Why on earth would we need an official dogma on the Catholic church?
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hosemonkey:
mormons do not like to codify their “doctrines,”
We have far more encoded scripture than you do, and we don’t change the doctrines in our scripture, so your statement makes no sense. Unless you’re saying that we don’t worship our theologians or equate their authority to that of the scriptures, in which case you’re correct … although that seems like a skewed view of the world.
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hosemonkey:
This always gives them “plausible deniability” in case they get forced into a corner. mormons do not like to get pinned down to anything.
Wow, better call Chris Carter. Sounds like an ex-file to me.
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hosemonkey:
if something is written down and sworn to, it makes it very difficult for them to deny or change it when circumstances or “revelation” brings changes.
You seem fixated on the assumption that everything we do is about you, and I’m not persuaded that you’ll ever be able to imagine that our process for accepting doctrine and encoding scripture isn’t some conspiracy to trick Catholics, so if you don’t mind, I’m going to get back on my black helicopter and fly right out of this conversation. 😛
 
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