Mormonism, Polygamy, and Warren Jeffs

[Telstar]

Can you imagine the excitement if someone were to discover some authentic writings by Mary herself? A Gospel of Mary? Would that not be entitled to recognition as scripture, even though it was not a traditional part of the Bible?

The thing is, she would never want to take any attention away from the message of Jesus, or from the Apostles that were given the task of leading the Church. Jesus could have made her the leader, but He didn’t. Her role was more in the background as support, but all of the Apostles looked to her for advice and treated her as their own mother, which really is her role. She is always ready and willing to lead all of her children by the hand, straight to Jesus. Whenever we pray to her, the message is always delivered straight to God. He wants us to love her as much as He does, and that’s a lot.

No, even if she did write her own story down, I doubt it would ever be considered to be scripture. Anything that would be found, now, is far too late to be able to even authenticate as true. All of the other supposed ‘gospels’ that have been found, don’t really mean diddly to me, or most other Catholics. Many of them contain way too many doctrinal errors to ever consider them to be worthy of belief, like the ones that claim that Jesus sinned as a Child. They might have been some of the writings that were rejected when the Bible was Canonized, because they were not accurate in what they stated as fact, or they taught errors that did not come from the Apostles, themselves. There were many writings from the heretical sects that had to be left out for those reasons. Some were just forgeries that were written in the names of the Apostles to fool others into believing what those heretical sects wanted to preach, but they only wrote them to sound similar to the originals. They weren’t real at all.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

The thing is, she would never want to take any attention away from the message of Jesus, or from the Apostles that were given the task of leading the Church. Jesus could have made her the leader, but He didn’t. Her role was more in the background as support, but all of the Apostles looked to her for advice and treated her as their own mother, which really is her role. She is always ready and willing to lead all of her children by the hand, straight to Jesus. Whenever we pray to her, the message is always delivered straight to God. He wants us to love her as much as He does, and that’s a lot.

No, even if she did write her own story down, I doubt it would ever be considered to be scripture. Anything that would be found, now, is far too late to be able to even authenticate as true. All of the other supposed ‘gospels’ that have been found, don’t really mean diddly to me, or most other Catholics. Many of them contain way too many doctrinal errors to ever consider them to be worthy of belief, like the ones that claim that Jesus sinned as a Child. They might have been some of the writings that were rejected when the Bible was Canonized, because they were not accurate in what they stated as fact, or they taught errors that did not come from the Apostles, themselves. There were many writings from the heretical sects that had to be left out for those reasons. Some were just forgeries that were written in the names of the Apostles to fool others into believing what those heretical sects wanted to preach, but they only wrote them to sound similar to the originals. They weren’t real at all.

Okay, what if her writing came with a letter signed jointly by Peter, James, and John, recommending Mary’s writings for reading by the body of the Church?

 

[Telstar]

Really? I thought it was John the Beloved who the Savior asked, from the Cross, to look after her, “Son behold thy Mother.”

That’s true, but all of the Apostles were very close to Mary and really did regard her as their Mother and the Mother of the Church, because of what Jesus said from the Cross. She did many things, along with the other holy women that were mentioned as always following Jesus. They would take care of many of the necessities that the Apostles needed, as far as food and lodging and other kinds of things that the Apostles didn’t have time to do for themselves. Some of the knowledge of those things were passed on to the Church through Tradition. Others have been revealed over the years through the personal revelations of different Saints that were shown them in visions. Women always had their own important role in the Church, but it was a supporting role. Most of them spent a lot of time in prayer for the success of the Apostles and their mission.

Did you ever wonder whatever happened to the gifts of gold and other things that the Magi brought? It’s believed that Mary used it throughout her life on earth, and to support Jesus throughout His public ministry. They always lived in humble poverty, even though she had those things, and they could have lived a much more affluent life than they did. But, she was always very frugal.

 

[Telstar]

Okay, what if her writing came with a letter signed jointly by Peter, James, and John, recommending Mary’s writings for reading by the body of the Church?

If it had existed when the Bible was Canonized, then still, only a maybe. But, if something like that was discovered today, it’s definitely far too late for it to ever be seen as scripture. There would be no way to determine it’s authenticity and it likely would not add anything significant that isn’t already contained in the Bible. Some of the early writings, even if they were authentic writings of the Apostles, were not added because they either repeated what was already said in the other Gospels and Epistles, or it wasn’t considered to be necessary for the edification of the faithful, or to the true mission of the Church. All that was considered to be necessary in regards to the faith was included, and has been carefully preserved by the Church, ever since. That’s why we’re so meticulous about who translates or tries to ‘modernize’ it. It’s the Church’s responsibility to interpret it and to preserve it, intact, and She always takes that responsibility very seriously.

 

[Telstar]

I’m sorry to hear about your experience. I’ve seen internet folks act like raving pack animals before.

Mormons get this “lying for the lord” garbage a lot, and that’s really aggravating, so I can expect some exaggerated responses to questions about whether a mormon really believes what he says he believes … but there’s no excuse for pack behavior. Mormons particularly should not act like mobbers.

As for the Kentucky-Fried Doctrines, well, they have been taught as “doctrine,” but they are not; they’ve never been submitted to the Common Consent process. Consequently there are a lot of Mormons who really feel strongly that they should be or are doctrine. Some of them were angry when President Hinckley said that “we don’t know that” the KFD theories are true.

Yeah, I was really shocked by some of their reactions. It caused a lot of bad feelings on all sides. There were people from all different faiths involved and it turned into a real all around bashfest. Before it happened, everyone there was like one big family. That thread and other similar ones tore the ‘family’ apart for quite a while afterward. I don’t think it was ever really the same, again. The weird thing was, there would sometimes be a new member that would join and start a thread to bash LDS, and I was usually one of the first ones to step in and defend the LDS and smack the person for being insensitive. But after that particular incident, I was one of the ones that were labeled “Mormon basher”. It really sucked.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

If it had existed when the Bible was Canonized, then still, only a maybe. But, if something like that was discovered today, it’s definitely far too late for it to ever be seen as scripture. There would be no way to determine it’s authenticity and it likely would not add anything significant that isn’t already contained in the Bible. Some of the early writings, even if they were authentic writings of the Apostles, were not added because they either repeated what was already said in the other Gospels and Epistles, or it wasn’t considered to be necessary for the edification of the faithful, or to the true mission of the Church. All that was considered to be necessary in regards to the faith was included, and has been carefully preserved by the Church, ever since. That’s why we’re so meticulous about who translates or tries to ‘modernize’ it. It’s the Church’s responsibility to interpret it and to preserve it, intact, and She always takes that responsibility very seriously.

I’m saying, what if the Catholic church did authenticate it, and also the letter from Peter James and John, and what if it did add significantly to that which is contained in the Bible. What if it addressed our time specifically, and contained a prophesy for our times?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if your church leaders told you to regard it as scripture, would you not, under those circumstances, regard the hypothetical Gospel of St. Mary as scripture?

 

[RebeccaJ]

The Council of Trent addressed the changing of the Canon of the Bible. Books cannot be added to it, or taken from it.

 

[pablope]

Okay, what if her writing came with a letter signed jointly by Peter, James, and John, recommending Mary’s writings for reading by the body of the Church?

Mary, I think, did not know how to write when she was here on earth…very few knew how to write then.

There is however, if you are not aware…the Protoevangelum of James and the Account of the Dormition by John the Theologian.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Mary, I think, did not know how to write when she was here on earth…very few knew how to write then.

There is however, if you are not aware…the Protoevangelum of James and the Account of the Dormition by John the Theologian.

I have never heard of it, and it sounds very interesting, especially if John the Theologian = John the Revelator = St John the beloved. Please elaborate.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

The Council of Trent addressed the changing of the Canon of the Bible. Books cannot be added to it, or taken from it.

Yes, but would an authenticated letter signed by Peter, James, and John override the Magesterium?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, but would an authenticated letter signed by Peter, James, and John override the Magesterium?

I think you’re poking around the LDS apprehension over a closed Canon. I don’t have this apprehension, the Word of God having been perfectly Revealed in Jesus Christ.

The Blessed Virgin Mary has many titles, but one of my favorites is Stella Maris, Star Of The Sea, a star that guides people with surety to her Son. While certainly we venerate Mary with great love, affection and admiration, the books chosen for the NT canon are all in support of the Gospel given to the Apostles by Jesus Christ.

I wouldn’t see any reason to add to the canon, as what has been revealed through Jesus Christ, the Good News of our Salvation through His suffering and death, and our Life in and through His Resurrection, is complete. Jesus Christ died once, for all, and raised Himself to Life.

I don’t know what LDS think was left out, or why. Jesus Christ is our completion. What more are you going to say that the Word of God has not already Revealed?

 

[pablope]

I have never heard of it, and it sounds very interesting, especially if John the Theologian = John the Revelator = St John the beloved. Please elaborate.

The Protoevengelum of Gospel of James is regarding ther BVM’s early childhood…that is why we Catholics know she was a consecrated temple virgin… and her parents names…

newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

You are correct…John the Theologian is how the Orthodox call John the Apostle…the account of the Assumption of the BVM…also called the Dormition in the east…is attributed to him…

The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Falling Asleep of the Holy Mother of God.
…newadvent.org/fathers/0832.htm.

 

[Telstar]

Yes, but would an authenticated letter signed by Peter, James, and John override the Magesterium?

Nope. Even if they authenticated it, it would not be scripture, but it might be published for all to read. But, that’s just speculation of a hypothetical event. I’m sure there would be many Catholics that would be deliriously happy to read something like that, but the chances are pretty slim to none that it would ever happen. If it had ever existed, the Church would certainly have had it from the very beginning, so we wouldn’t have to be speculating about it being discovered, at this point in time.

The Protoevangelium of James

The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Falling Asleep of the Holy Mother of God.

These are links to the works mentioned above by pablope. You might find them interesting, to say the least.

 

[Telstar]

The Protoevengelum of Gospel of James is regarding ther BVM’s early childhood…that is why we Catholics know she was a consecrated temple virgin… and her parents names…

newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

You are correct…John the Theologian is how the Orthodox call John the Apostle…the account of the Assumption of the BVM…also called the Dormition in the east…is attributed to him…

The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Falling Asleep of the Holy Mother of God.
…newadvent.org/fathers/0832.htm.

Dang, you beat me to it! LOL

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

I think you’re poking around the LDS apprehension over a closed Canon. I don’t have this apprehension, the Word of God having been perfectly Revealed in Jesus Christ.

The Blessed Virgin Mary has many titles, but one of my favorites is Stella Maris, Star Of The Sea, a star that guides people with surety to her Son. While certainly we venerate Mary with great love, affection and admiration, the books chosen for the NT canon are all in support of the Gospel given to the Apostles by Jesus Christ.

I wouldn’t see any reason to add to the canon, as what has been revealed through Jesus Christ, the Good News of our Salvation through His suffering and death, and our Life in and through His Resurrection, is complete. Jesus Christ died once, for all, and raised Himself to Life.

I don’t know what LDS think was left out, or why. Jesus Christ is our completion. What more are you going to say that the Word of God has not already Revealed?

I’m not going to say anything. But if God has something else to say, I’d certainly like to hear it.

I’d certainly like to hear what Jesus taught during the 40 days after his resurrection that he stayed with his apostles. I suspect that Paul’s amazing discourse on Charity, 1 Cor 13, actually cited the Lord’s teachings from that time. Given the things Jesus taught during his mortal ministry, I have a hard time believing that he spent forty days with his disciples after coming back from the dead, without having something interesting and useful to say.

I don’t think they spent the whole forty days eating fish.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m not going to say anything. But if God has something else to say, I’d certainly like to hear it.

I’d certainly like to hear what Jesus taught during the 40 days after his resurrection that he stayed with his apostles. I suspect that Paul’s amazing discourse on Charity, 1 Cor 13, actually cited the Lord’s teachings from that time. Given the things Jesus taught during his mortal ministry, I have a hard time believing that he spent forty days with his disciples after coming back from the dead, without having something interesting and useful to say.

I don’t think they spent the whole forty days eating fish.

Catholics are not gnostics, we don’t believe there is secret knowledge that Jesus hid from everyone, and only a few select people can know what this secret knowledge is. Jesus came as a light to the world, and gave the world Himself in order to save it. I can understand a need to look for something additional, in the form of seeking God, and the need for God. But secret knowledge is not God. Jesus is God.

There are important teachings that are reinforced by Jesus. Jesus being recognized in the breaking of the bread, is profound for Catholics. Yet, Mormons don’t understand what happened there at all. It isn’t secret knowledge, our Church is open for any to enter. Jesus is the source, center and summit of our Faith. He is the One that we seek, not secret knowledge.

 

[Telstar]

I’m not going to say anything. But if God has something else to say, I’d certainly like to hear it.

I’d certainly like to hear what Jesus taught during the 40 days after his resurrection that he stayed with his apostles. I suspect that Paul’s amazing discourse on Charity, 1 Cor 13, actually cited the Lord’s teachings from that time. Given the things Jesus taught during his mortal ministry, I have a hard time believing that he spent forty days with his disciples after coming back from the dead, without having something interesting and useful to say.

I don’t think they spent the whole forty days eating fish.

Although there isn’t very much written in the Bible about everything that Jesus did during that time, I tend to believe that He most likely spent much of that time in finishing His work with the Apostles, by explaining to them in greater detail what their mission would entail in setting up His Church. Instructions about where and how to preach the Gospel, how to set up the hierarchy in order to guard against any error or misunderstanding of the truth of what Jesus taught, how to care for the flock in all of their spiritual needs as far as Baptisms, the solemn practice of the ‘breaking of the bread’, and the confirmation in the laying on of hands to invoke the Holy Spirit and to impart the Holy Orders of the Priesthood on those that would be called as disciples and ministers of the faith. There was a lot that Jesus couldn’t teach them before His death because they wouldn’t have understood it without them knowing the true significance of those teachings. He no longer had to teach them in parables in order to hide all that would happen to Him. He could now explain the full meaning of all of those parables to them.

At that time, even though it might seem to us that their numbers would have been small, when we actually look at the huge numbers of those that were converted on those occasions that are mentioned in the Gospels and in the rest of the New Testament, the flock was actually growing in leaps and bounds, and there were many cities that had large numbers of converts for the Apostles to minister to. It would have been very important for them to be well organized with a plan in place to make sure that none of those people were left without firm guidance. No doubt He also appeared to a great many of those faithful as a means of fortifying them in their new faith, and to prove that He was, indeed, risen from the dead.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Yes, but would an authenticated letter signed by Peter, James, and John override the Magesterium?

No.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

No.

Thank you, Lucy, and others who have replied to my questions.

I hope I have not been too annoying. Please believe that I’ve been trying to understand your PoV, not trying to convert you to mine.

 

[Telstar]

Thank you, Lucy, and others who have replied to my questions.

I hope I have not been too annoying. Please believe that I’ve been trying to understand your PoV, not trying to convert you to mine.

The name of this website is “Catholic Answers”, so answering people’s questions about the Catholic PoV is the ‘name of the game’, here. If people can’t ask lots of questions, what would be the point of it?