Mormonism: Restoration of Ancient Christian Church?

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LW,
Im assuming you being EQP that you are going to have to at least watch the priesthood session of conference (assuming you dont have to work?)

Havent been able to read all of your posts due to my own schedule but have you had an movement when it comes to your calling?

I know you expressed your responsibility and duty to it even as you are discerning your future.
 
LW,
Im assuming you being EQP that you are going to have to at least watch the priesthood session of conference (assuming you dont have to work?)

Havent been able to read all of your posts due to my own schedule but have you had an movement when it comes to your calling?

I know you expressed your responsibility and duty to it even as you are discerning your future.
I’ll respond in the other thread. 🙂
 
Newman starts by saying that he (as an Anglican) has never doubted the real presence. He highlights speaks positively of its witness and then suggests that the witness of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome is more powerful than the witness of the real presence. He then offers the below.
Bolding mine (from An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine):
On the other hand, of a passage in St. Justin, Bishop Kaye remarks, "Le Nourry infers that Justin
maintained the doctrine of Transubstantiation; it might in my opinion be more plausibly urged in favour of Consubstantiation, since Justin calls the consecrated elements Bread and Wine, though not common bread and wine Note 22] … We may therefore conclude that, when he calls them the Body and Blood of Christ, he speaks figuratively." “Clement,” observes the same author, “says that the Scripture calls wine a mystic symbol of the holy blood … Clement gives various interpretations of Christ’s expressions in John vi. respecting His flesh and blood; but in no instance does he interpret them literally … His notion seems to have been that, by partaking of the bread and wine in the Eucharist, the soul of the believer is united to the Spirit, and that by this union the principle of immortality is imparted to the flesh.” Note 23] “It has been suggested by some,” says Waterland, “that Tertullian understood John vi. merely of faith, or doctrine, or spiritual actions; and it is strenuously denied by others.” After quoting the passage, {25} he adds, “All that one can justly gather from this confused passage is that Tertullian interpreted the bread of life in John vi. of the Word, which he sometimes makes to be vocal, and sometimes substantial, blending the ideas in a very perplexed manner; so that he is no clear authority for construing John vi. of doctrines, &c. All that is certain is that he supposes the Word made flesh, the Word incarnate to be the heavenly bread spoken of in that chapter.” Note 24] “Origen’s general observation relating to that chapter is, that it must not be literally, but figuratively understood.” Note 25] Again, “It is plain enough that Eusebius followed Origen in this matter, and that both of them favoured the same mystical or allegorical construction; whether constantly and uniformly I need not say.” Note 26] I will but add the incidental testimony afforded on a late occasion:—how far the Anglican doctrine of the Eucharist depends on the times before the Nicene Council, how far on the times after it, may be gathered from the circumstance that, when a memorable Sermon Note 27] was published on the subject, out of about one hundred and forty passages from the Fathers appended in the notes, not in formal proof, but in general illustration, only fifteen were taken from Ante-nicene writers.
Anyone is welcome to do whatever research they want on Newman’s words. My recollection of my research is that some of the above 5 are good examples of not accepting the real presence and some are not real good examples. I have no desire to repeat of find this research (I did look briefly), but anyone who wishes can do so!
Charity, TOm
 
Steven168,
TOmNossor;10577739:
Stephen168;10577450:
TOmNossor;10575363:
Proposals of Bible based passages were satisfactory to some of the folks that the “orthodox” knew were heretics and this resulted in their rejection.
Barker was wrong.
What Bible was being used during the Bishop’s debate about Arianism, the date of Easter, or which Bishops were Metropolitan?
I will need to look into the precise wording as there was not a canonized New Testament at this time per say. My guess is Barker was referencing a quote from a French or Spanish Catholic scholar.
It was the debate about Arianism / the Trinity.
Would you suggest that if it was a proposal to use words from texts that were generally accepted to be inspired at this time (and in the future would be canonized as part of the New Testament) that “Barker was wrong?”

Charity, TOm
Does that mean you in fact do not have a list of five ECFs that denied the Real Presence, or taught a symbolic interpretation as LDS understand the Sacrament?
No, it has nothing to do with that! Even the quote out of context was obviously totally unrelated.

Does your comment mean that you have no interest in my looking up the proper way Barker expressed the conditions at Nicea? I hope so, because I doubt I will have time for quite a while to do that.

Charity, TOm
 
Concerning what I believe about deification:
I believe that whatever Christ is, we are to become. He became what we are so that we could become what He is. Past necessity will not be changed however. Christ was divine before incarnation (indeed I believe Christ has eternally been divine through His union with the Father who has also eternally been divine), and I was not and am not currently divine.

What I believe the ECF before Athanasius believed concerning the final state of deified man:
The ECF taught that whatever Christ is, we are to become. He became what we are so that we could become what He is. They regularly said that we are to become gods. It was so accepted that our destiny was divinity that Athanasius argued that Christ must be God else He could not make us gods. I think the ECF generally believed that past necessity will not be changed however (Irenaeus may be an exception). The Fathers who wrote after Basilides (a 2nd century gnostic who was the first to espouse Creation ex Nihilo), believed or likely believed in some form of Creation ex Nihilo (Fathers before this who explicitly wrote passages that deny creation ex nihilo are Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, and Clement of Rome). So for many ECF, Christ was included in that which was not created ex nihilo (though not all ECF even taught this by my recollection). So whatever Christ is (in many instances what He is/was eternally), we were to become, but Christ will have been this eternally and we will become this.
Cont…
 
So, in your world, a man can become a god?

can a dog become a cat? a Horse become a cow? I am curious about your world
 
In my research I have NEVER found an ECF before Athanasius who denied that we were to become what Christ is/was. Thus if Christ is fully divine, we are to become fully divine. One could argue that Christ was so clearly subordinate to the Father before Nicea that us becoming what those folks believed Christ to be is not problematic. I think Greg Stafford would make such an argument if he has not already, but I doubt a Catholic would. The truth IMO is that Christ is subordinated to the Father, pre-Nicea in ways He is not after the first 4 councils, but I would not argue that the ECF before Nicea believed that Christ was not fully divine.

I will offer the most clear statement of what this limitation is. Deification and Grace by Catholic scholar Daniel Keating boldly declares that we are to become gods. He goes farther than all Catholics I have met on or off-line save one (who is not Catholic any longer, and not a LDS). But, he will not let the ECF’s say what I think they actually say. The passage that best illustrates the gymnastics necessary to do this is here:

**Deification and Grace [/quote said:
-Daniel Keating, p. 101]
koinōnein[/I]) in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook (metechein) of the same [nature].” Here we have an example of the first sense of participation, namely, sharing in a common nature. In order to redeem us and “to bring many sons to glory” (Heb 2:10), the Son of God came to share fully in our nature, that is, he became a human being. But the goal of the Son sharing in our nature is also stated in participationist language. We are told in 2 Peter 1:4 that God’s divine power at work in us is brought to completion by our becoming “partakers (koinōnoi) of the divine nature.” Here we have in bold and demonstrative language the promise that the Father has sent the Son to deliver us from sin and to cause us to become sharers in the divine nature itself. But in 2 Peter 1:4 we have an example of the second sense of participation, the unequal and derivative sharing by the creature in the infinite Creator. In this case, we as partakers never become, strictly speaking, what we partake of. We partake of the divine life, but do not become God by nature. And so we can rephrase the formula of exchange (“the Son of God became the Son of Man, so that the sons of men might become sons of God”) in terms of the two senses of participation found respectively in Hebrews 2 and 2 Peter 1. The Son of God partook of our nature and became fully what we are (human beings), so that we might partake of the divine nature and become by grace and participation what he is by nature. To put this in the creedal terminology of the Council of Chalcedon (a.d. 451): The eternal Word of God, consubstantial with the Father, became fully a human being, consubstantial with us in our nature, so that we might become partakers of his divinity. But we never become consubstantial (one in being) with the Father as he is; rather, we are inserted by grace into the divine communion of Persons. This is what it means to become “gods by grace.”

I believe Keating well represents one way of reading of Athanasius in light of other passages where Athanasius does limit the final state of deified man. When Athanasius say, that Christ became man so that men can become gods, perhaps he means it in the STILTED way Keating thinks he does.
But to read the “graced exchange” offered in Irenaeus and many previous ECF with the idea of becoming (or participating) in two separate and distinct ways across a clearly parallel statement is IMO doing violence to the witness of the ECF.

So, you asked what I meant by “limited deification” being the Catholic view verses “full deification” being my view. I hope I have answered well.

If any Catholic here wishes to say that “limited deification” is either too much or too little to describe their view or the view of the ECF, then I will read. I do not intend to search for the statements where Athanasius limits deification (which I found long ago) or where Aquinas does or … I think Keating expresses well what the boldest of deification believers holding to the developed Catholic tradition believe. Chalcedon tells us what Christ is. He is homoousian with God in His divinity and homoousian with man in his humanity. I know of nothing irreformable that says we are not to become dual natured beings homoousian with God and mankind, but I do not know any current Catholics who would say such a thing. Maybe someone here will be the first.

As a LDS, I do not believe Christ’s divinity is a product of his substance. I do not embrace a dual natured Christ that I do not fine illustrated in the Bible. So, men becoming gods because we are lifted to divinity through God, Father(union/fount), Son(atonement), Spirit(witness…) does not need to result in some dual natured thing.
Let me restate:

If anybody can find a place where and ECF before Athanasius limits the final state of deified man, I will be surprised and I will read. NOBODY EVER DOES!

Charity, TOm
 
I think I’ve asked this before, but, nobody has answered.

How can the Church be restored, if there was never a need for restoration?

The whole of mormonism stands or falls on a total apostasy, which never happened.

Even mormons have backed off of the “total” apostasy claim, and have gone with “a falling away”.

Along with other unexplained doctrinal changes, this is a major one that has never been explained.
 
So, in your world, a man can become a god?
can a dog become a cat? a Horse become a cow? I am curious about your world
Yes, my understanding of reality is that a man can become a god. That through the atonement of Christ, the witness of the Spirit, and ultimate union with God the Father (and Christ and the Spirit) we can become gods. There is a sense in which the Father will be the fount of divinity. There is a sense in which Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and deified men will be one. But, yes, men can become gods.

Also “in my world” God could in fact change what is previously a dog into a cat or a horse into a cow.

I challenge you to answer this:
TexanKnight, In you world, is it possible for God to turn a dog into a cat or a horse into a cow?
Charity, TOm
 
Yes, my understanding of reality is that a man can become a god. That through the atonement of Christ, the witness of the Spirit, and ultimate union with God the Father (and Christ and the Spirit) we can become gods. There is a sense in which the Father will be the fount of divinity. There is a sense in which Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and deified men will be one. But, yes, men can become gods.

Also “in my world” God could in fact change what is previously a dog into a cat or a horse into a cow.

I challenge you to answer this:
TexanKnight, In you world, is it possible for God to turn a dog into a cat or a horse into a cow?
Charity, TOm
Ah…so when faced with a question that shows how laughable your position is, you change the variables to help you out?

Of course, God is all powerful…not the LDS God…he was once a sinful man…but THE God is all powerful. He can do what he wants. Please show me references of God changing a dog into a cat or a cow into a horse. I am interested in seeing all the times that has happened. I will be waiting.
 
I think I’ve asked this before, but, nobody has answered.
How can the Church be restored, if there was never a need for restoration?

The whole of mormonism stands or falls on a total apostasy, which never happened.

Even mormons have backed off of the “total” apostasy claim, and have gone with “a falling away”.

Along with other unexplained doctrinal changes, this is a major one that has never been explained.
LDS have NEVER meant by total apostasy that all true propositions about Christ ceased to be believed and only false beliefs existed.
The church began with the witness of Joseph Smith and what it meant when he was to join no existing church, but restore ancient Christianity.
Early LDS explanations of this built upon the Protestant explanations that offered horrors of the middle ages (things like the Vatican being like a brothel). I think this is not of any value.
Other explanations were associated with doctrinal issues. These I think have a place in LDS thought now.
Most LDS now believe it is an authority issue. I am in this group, but I believe there are theological issues that could hinder the coming of men to God within developed Christian thought that the restoration has removed (or allowed to be removed).
There are LDS thought about Covenants vs. Sacraments. I think this is an interesting area for research towards understanding the apostasy.
There are even some other areas of exploration I have seen.

If you want to read a couple of essays that explore some of this, I will link them?

My thoughts on the passing of authority are plastered all over this board.

But, the authority was totally absent. The Catholic priest (or layman or 4 year old as I heard of on Catholic Answers once) cannot validly perform baptism. His authority is totally absent. Was all truth lost? Of course not! Did God cease to strive with His children? Of course not! Could God pierce through the most brilliant and wrong theories of someone like Thomas Aquinas and show even him that God loves and all his theories were straw? Yes of course!
Charity, TOm
 
LDS have NEVER meant by total apostasy that all true propositions about Christ ceased to be believed and only false beliefs existed.
The church began with the witness of Joseph Smith and what it meant when he was to join no existing church, but restore ancient Christianity.
Early LDS explanations of this built upon the Protestant explanations that offered horrors of the middle ages (things like the Vatican being like a brothel). I think this is not of any value.
Other explanations were associated with doctrinal issues. These I think have a place in LDS thought now.
Most LDS now believe it is an authority issue. I am in this group, but I believe there are theological issues that could hinder the coming of men to God within developed Christian thought that the restoration has removed (or allowed to be removed).
There are LDS thought about Covenants vs. Sacraments. I think this is an interesting area for research towards understanding the apostasy.
There are even some other areas of exploration I have seen.

If you want to read a couple of essays that explore some of this, I will link them?

My thoughts on the passing of authority are plastered all over this board.

But, the authority was totally absent. The Catholic priest (or layman or 4 year old as I heard of on Catholic Answers once) cannot validly perform baptism. His authority is totally absent. Was all truth lost? Of course not! Did God cease to strive with His children? Of course not! Could God pierce through the most brilliant and wrong theories of someone like Thomas Aquinas and show even him that God loves and all his theories were straw? Yes of course!
Charity, TOm
So, as usual mormons use their own definition for the word “Total”.

Got it.

So, since mormons use their own definitions for the word “Total”, and couple that with 9 versions of the first vision,

That somehow makes the mormon church right.

Got it.

Sorry, your premise fails completely based on your mormon definition of the word “total”, but hey, good try!!!

ETA: Total = A whole quantity; an entirety. or Complete; utter; absolute
 
If Joseph Smith saw God in 1820, why did he pray in his room in 1823 to find out “if a Supreme being did exist?”

If Jesus Christ and God the Father really told Joseph Smith in 1820 that all churches were an abomination, then why did he try joining the Methodist church in June of 1828?
 
still waiting for your references on God changing cats into dogs…I really wanna see them
 
LDS have NEVER meant by total apostasy that all true propositions about Christ ceased to be believed and only false beliefs existed.
The church began with the witness of Joseph Smith and what it meant when he was to join no existing church, but restore ancient Christianity.

But, the authority was totally absent. The Catholic priest (or layman or 4 year old as I heard of on Catholic Answers once) cannot validly perform baptism. His authority is totally absent. Was all truth lost? Of course not! Did God cease to strive with His children? Of course not! Could God pierce through the most brilliant and wrong theories of someone like Thomas Aquinas and show even him that God loves and all his theories were straw? Yes of course!
Charity, TOm
If they never MEANT Total Apostasy, then why say Total Apostasy? Any missionary that I’ve spoken two, at least 5 or 6 different pairs, have told me it was a Total Apostasy and the creeds were an abomination and there is no authority… Sounds like they are teaching Total Apostasy. If there is absolutely no authority, then none of what the ECF’s taught was true. Apparently without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or any authority, how can you say God was still with us if we have no proper authority among the leaders.

I may be mistaken in what I understand of what you are saying, but that’s the way it seems to me.
 
Ah…so when faced with a question that shows how laughable your position is, you change the variables to help you out?
Of course, God is all powerful…not the LDS God…he was once a sinful man…but THE God is all powerful. He can do what he wants. Please show me references of God changing a dog into a cat or a cow into a horse. I am interested in seeing all the times that has happened. I will be waiting.
To make the above coherent, I must have misunderstood your original question.
You said:
So, in your world, a man can become a god?
can a dog become a cat? a Horse become a cow? I am curious about your world
Based on my perception of your clarification, the answer is a resounding NO!
Cows cannot just become Horses. Men cannot just become gods. And dogs cannot just become cats.

I truly misunderstood your question. I know of no LDS who believe that God does not make men gods. I certainly do not.
It was an honest mistake. It didn’t occur to me that you were implying that I believed men become gods without the power of God changing them.

Have I correctly understood your original question now?
Am I restored to a position of reasoned worldview in your eyes?

Charity, TOm
 
To make the above coherent, I must have misunderstood your original question.
You said:

Based on my perception of your clarification, the answer is a resounding NO!
Cows cannot just become Horses. Men cannot just become gods. And dogs cannot just become cats.

I truly misunderstood your question. I know of no LDS who believe that God does not make men gods. I certainly do not.
It was an honest mistake. It didn’t occur to me that you were implying that I believed men become gods without the power of God changing them.

Have I correctly understood your original question now?
Am I restored to a position of reasoned worldview in your eyes?

Charity, TOm
Perhaps.

So, men just do not evolve into gods…they are transformed into them at some point? What point?
 
My thought is that total apostasy means that there is no God sanctioned authority on earth. (see the excellent correction to this by TexanKnight below - I forgot to account for John and the Three Nephites).
The Catholic thinks they have ordained authority passed from Apostles to Bishop to Bishops today (and to Priests). They are wrong it is totally gone.
The Protestant thinks they have priesthood of all believers (and they do), but that there is no such thing as authority passed from Apostles to Bishop to Bishops today. The Protestant is wrong in the belief that Bishops were given authority in the early church to serve along side Apostles. And again this authority is totally gone.

I hope that clarifies.
It is not a partial apostasy. It is a total apostasy. But this must be understood as a total absence of God’s authority to officiated in official covenantal transactions.

Partial losses abound too, but they do not change the fact that there is a total loss of authority. Catholics continued to have folks who officiate in semi-covenantal transactions (that lack the power God imbued in them). Catholics have largely but not totally forgotten that these transactions are covenantal in nature and not merely a window for God grace to poor out upon the human (like the baby who is baptized – and LDS must remember that the parents and godparents stand in and make covenants so like I said this is only a partial loss).

So, I hope that clarifies. If there is a total apostasy of authority, this is a total apostasy and it requires a restoration of authority.

If there is also great heresy in the Catholic Church and a loss of much but not all of the covenantal nature of what Catholics call “sacraments,” that partial state does not make the total apostasy any less total when it comes to authority and the need for restoration.
Charity, TOm
 
My thought is that total apostasy means that there is no God sanctioned authority on earth.
The Catholic thinks they have ordained authority passed from Apostles to Bishop to Bishops today (and to Priests). They are wrong it is totally gone.
The Protestant thinks they have priesthood of all believers (and they do), but that there is no such thing as authority passed from Apostles to Bishop to Bishops today. The Protestant is wrong in the belief that Bishops were given authority in the early church to serve along side Apostles. And again this authority is totally gone.

I hope that clarifies.
It is not a partial apostasy. It is a total apostasy. But this must be understood as a total absence of God’s authority to officiated in official covenantal transactions.

Partial losses abound too, but they do not change the fact that there is a total loss of authority. Catholics continued to have folks who officiate in semi-covenantal transactions (that lack the power God imbued in them). Catholics have largely but not totally forgotten that these transactions are covenantal in nature and not merely a window for God grace to poor out upon the human (like the baby who is baptized – and LDS must remember that the parents and godparents stand in and make covenants so like I said this is only a partial loss).

So, I hope that clarifies. If there is a total apostasy of authority, this is a total apostasy and it requires a restoration of authority.

If there is also great heresy in the Catholic Church and a loss of much but not all of the covenantal nature of what Catholics call “sacraments,” that partial state does not make the total apostasy any less total when it comes to authority and the need for restoration.
Charity, TOm
That would be an odd position to take soince the Apostle John and the Three Nephites walked the earth.

And that is if you are LDS.

If not, there are a plethora of examples of God-Sanctioned people walking the earth from the days of the Apostles thru 1830 and beyond
 
So, men just do not evolve into gods…they are transformed into them at some point? What point?
I do not know what point .
Do you know at what point a Catholic would say person xyz became a god?

Charity, TOm
 
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