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Tarquin
Guest
It is NOT “that simple,” because “apostle” has multiple uses, as explained previously.
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gazelam
Guest
Do you mean does the LDS Church notify an independent auditor like Price Waterhouse each time a priesthood ordination takes place so that said independent auditor can vouch the ordination lineage of each priesthood holder?
Basically, the LDS Church tracks its own priesthood ordinations.
Not sure if this is a non-LDS source you’re looking for, but en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthood_(Latter_Day_Saints states:
Requirement of priesthood succession
Very early in his ministry, Joseph Smith began to advocate the position that priesthood does not come directly from God through the Holy Spirit, as many Protestants believe, but through a line of direct or apostolic succession. Thus, Latter Day Saints generally believe that priesthood originates with Jesus, and is passed to others through a line of succession. Only one who holds the priesthood can pass it to another. Thus, in 1829, Smith and his associate claimed that the Aaronic priesthood was given to him by John the Baptist, who was thought to have authority through the lineage of his father Zacharias, who was an Aaronic priest. Later, Smith also claimed to have received the Melchizedek priesthood from the apostles Peter, James, and John, who were given their authority by Jesus.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
This is why I already said, a comparison can’t be made because definitions are not the same.
Also an issue where Mormonism lacks a historical context, in Christian history.
Apostle is rooted in Greek, meaning one who is sent. The Twelve were sent in a manner that no one can claim today. They lived, walked, ate, slept, travelled, questioned and were taught for three years by the Master Himself. Then they were sent, as we can read, by Jesus in His great commission to go out into the world to spread what they were taught and what they witnessed, firsthand. Again, there is no one that can make this claim today.
Paul argued quite fervently that his calling was equal to the Twelve, and indeed he was sent, and indeed he was an apostle, specifically set apart by the Twelve as an apostle to the Gentiles. But he was not one of the Twelve.
Our Bishops today come from a succession that goes back to the Twelve, where they are set apart to go out into the world to teach the Good News of Jesus Christ. They are apostles, as they are sent as the Twelve were sent but they are not one of the Twelve. They are their successors.
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Marie5890
Guest
(from another thread )
“More than ninety percent of the more than 4,900 Roman Catholic bishops alive today trace their episcopal lineage back to one bishop who was appointed in 1541 - Scipione Rebiba. **Why so many bishops trace their lineages to this one bishop can be explained in great part by the intense sacramental activity of Pope Benedict XIII, who ordained 139 bishops during his episcopate and pontificate, including many cardinals, papal diplomats, and bishops of important dioceses who, in turn, ordained many other bishops. **The bishop who ordained Benedict XIII gives us the direct link to Scipione Rebiba. It is widely believed that Rebiba was ordained bishop by Gian Pietro Cardinal Carafa, who became Pope Paul IV. However, no documentary evidence has been found to verify this hypothesis.”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=235741
“More than ninety percent of the more than 4,900 Roman Catholic bishops alive today trace their episcopal lineage back to one bishop who was appointed in 1541 - Scipione Rebiba. **Why so many bishops trace their lineages to this one bishop can be explained in great part by the intense sacramental activity of Pope Benedict XIII, who ordained 139 bishops during his episcopate and pontificate, including many cardinals, papal diplomats, and bishops of important dioceses who, in turn, ordained many other bishops. **The bishop who ordained Benedict XIII gives us the direct link to Scipione Rebiba. It is widely believed that Rebiba was ordained bishop by Gian Pietro Cardinal Carafa, who became Pope Paul IV. However, no documentary evidence has been found to verify this hypothesis.”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=235741
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Horton
Guest
Quit acting dense.Do you mean does the LDS Church notify an independent auditor like Price Waterhouse each time a priesthood ordination takes place so that said independent auditor can vouch the ordination lineage of each priesthood holder?
Basically, the LDS Church tracks its own priesthood ordinations.
Not sure if this is a non-LDS source you’re looking for, but en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthood_(Latter_Day_Saints states:
Requirement of priesthood succession
Very early in his ministry, Joseph Smith began to advocate the position that priesthood does not come directly from God through the Holy Spirit, as many Protestants believe, but through a line of direct or apostolic succession. Thus, Latter Day Saints generally believe that priesthood originates with Jesus, and is passed to others through a line of succession. Only one who holds the priesthood can pass it to another. Thus, in 1829, Smith and his associate claimed that the Aaronic priesthood was given to him by John the Baptist, who was thought to have authority through the lineage of his father Zacharias, who was an Aaronic priest. Later, Smith also claimed to have received the Melchizedek priesthood from the apostles Peter, James, and John, who were given their authority by Jesus.
I asked if you could provide a non LDS source for the claim you made of the priesthood can trace it’s line back to Jesus Christ. And no Wikipedia is not a good source as the material they use in support of this claim is from the LDS.
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Horton
Guest
Matthew 10:1-4
The Mission of the Twelve.
1 Then he summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits to drive them out and to cure every disease and every illness.
2 The names of the twelve apostles* are these: first, Simon called Peter, and his brother Andrew; James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John;
3 Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James, the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddeus;
4 Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot who betrayed him.*
Judas was replaced by Matthias. So St. Paul was not one of the twelve. It’s that simple.
Stephen168
New member
Jesus had an earthly ministry. During his ministry, he taught his disciple all they needed to know for salvation. Many of his disciples were called Apostles. The term ‘Apostle’ means one who is sent. Jesus selected The Twelve: Simon (Peter/Cephas/Rock), James (the Greater/son of Zebedee/brother of John), John (the Evangelist/the brother of James), Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James (the Lesser/the son of Alphaeus), Jude (Thaddaeus), Simon (the Zealot/Canaanite), and Judas Iscariot. Christ sent the Twelve (Matthew 10:5). Christ selected 70 more and they were sent (Luke 10:1). Mark and Luke the Evangelists are referred to as Apostles. By tradition, James, Luke, and Mark were members of the seventy. Paul and Barnabas were called Apostles (Acts 14:14, Gal 2:9, Acts 13:1-3). Barnabas was taught by the Twelve and was with Paul on his first journey. These Apostles are the witnesses and recorders of Christ’s earthly ministry. Most were witnesses to his resurrection.
Just as sheep have four legs but not all animals with four legs are sheep; all the Apostles were not ‘The Twelve.’ The Twelve were the foundation of his Church (Eph 2:19-22), but not just any 12 but THE Twelve (Rev 21:14). The corner stone and the foundation are laid once. Just as Christ is eternally the head of the Church, The Twelve are the eternal foundation.
Because of Judas’ apostasy (Acts 1:25), the Twelve needed to be restored. The eleven chose Matthias.
According to Peter there are two requirements to be a member of the Twelve. The two requirements are: a) Witness the resurrected Lord b) Been in the company of the twelve while the Lord walked on earth. These requirements limit the council membership to the first century. After all the men that walked with the twelve, while the Lord walked the earth, died; no one else qualified. The Twelve was never meant to be on going. This was the only time eleven selected a twelfth; one apostasy, one replacement. Revelation 21:14: Peter/Cephas/Rock, James son of Zebedee, John the Evangelist, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Jude, Simon the Zealot, and Matthias.
Just as there was no need to replace Christ as the head of Church after the crucifixion, or replace The Twelve as the foundation after their deaths; the Twelve were not replaced after their deaths. If Apostle was only an office to be filled, they could have easily been replaced; just like Bishops have been replaced for almost 2000 years.
The only consistent meaning to being called ‘Apostle’ seems to be an Evangelist who was taught by Christ or The Twelve. The Twelve would pass from the earth by design. The title of Apostle would pass from the earth because The Twelve were not here to commission them. When Eusebius (Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History © 324) refers to an Apostle being replaced it is as the Apostle’s position of Bishop (Peter in Rome, James in Jerusalem) not as Apostles. As the Apostles died, IF they were also Bishops, they were replaced by Bishops.
Stephen168
New member
Mormons claim their Apostles hold the key of Priesthood Authority which the Catholic Church lost; demonstrated by the fact there are no more Apostles in Orthodox Christianity. The problem with this claim is Mormon history itself.
In 1830, Joseph Smith started the Latter-Day-Saint Movement by making himself First Elder and Oliver Cowdery ‘Second Elder.’ They both claimed to be given the ‘Keys.’ Smith established the First Presidency, Jesse Gause*and Sidney Rigdon, to run the Church in 1832. This High Council was the chief judicial and legislative body of the church supervised by the First Presidency. The Presiding High Council was established in 1834 by the First Presidency. In 1835, Smith told Oliver Cowdery,Martin Harris, andDavid Whitmer,*to select the Twelve Apostles to head the missionary work of the Church. The first apostles were: Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Lyman E. Johnson, David W. Patten, Orson Hyde, William E. M’Lellin, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, John F. Boynton, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt,**Thomas B. Marsh.
By the end of 1835, the Church was run by the Elders in the First Presidency who was over the Elders in the Presiding High Council who was over the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. ‘The Keys’ were held by the First Presidency who were not ‘Apostles.’
In 1837, thefailure of the Kirtland Safety Society, a bank founded by church leaders, led to widespread dissent.
In 1838, Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated. And John Patten was killed. They were replaced by John Page, and John Taylor leaving the church with eight apostles.
In 1839 Wilford Woodruff, and George Smith were added to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to make the total number ten.
In 1840, Willard Richards made the number of apostles eleven.
In 1841, Lyman Wight was added to restored the number of apostles to twelve.
In 1842 Orson Pratt was excommunicated and replaced by Amasa Lyman.
At the time of Joseph Smith’s death the First Presidency included: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon. The head of the Presiding High Council was William Marks. The head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Brigham Young. After the Smith’s were killed, only Sidney Rigdon remained in the First Presidency.
As the member of the First Presidency (holder of the keys) Rigdon claimed to be guardian of the church and Apostle John Page and Elder William Marks supported him in that claim.
Brigham Young as the head Apostle claimed Joseph Smith was an Apostle and held the keys. Because Young was the head Apostle he claimed to replace Smith as the holder of the keys. This was the first time any Mormon thought of an Apostle as being a key holder.
The Church membership voted for Young, as leader of the third level church council, to lead the church; and raise the Quorum of Twelve Apostles over the Presiding High Council while taking over the First Presidency.
To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.
In 1830, Joseph Smith started the Latter-Day-Saint Movement by making himself First Elder and Oliver Cowdery ‘Second Elder.’ They both claimed to be given the ‘Keys.’ Smith established the First Presidency, Jesse Gause*and Sidney Rigdon, to run the Church in 1832. This High Council was the chief judicial and legislative body of the church supervised by the First Presidency. The Presiding High Council was established in 1834 by the First Presidency. In 1835, Smith told Oliver Cowdery,Martin Harris, andDavid Whitmer,*to select the Twelve Apostles to head the missionary work of the Church. The first apostles were: Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Lyman E. Johnson, David W. Patten, Orson Hyde, William E. M’Lellin, Luke S. Johnson, William Smith, John F. Boynton, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt,**Thomas B. Marsh.
By the end of 1835, the Church was run by the Elders in the First Presidency who was over the Elders in the Presiding High Council who was over the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. ‘The Keys’ were held by the First Presidency who were not ‘Apostles.’
In 1837, thefailure of the Kirtland Safety Society, a bank founded by church leaders, led to widespread dissent.
In 1838, Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated. And John Patten was killed. They were replaced by John Page, and John Taylor leaving the church with eight apostles.
In 1839 Wilford Woodruff, and George Smith were added to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to make the total number ten.
In 1840, Willard Richards made the number of apostles eleven.
In 1841, Lyman Wight was added to restored the number of apostles to twelve.
In 1842 Orson Pratt was excommunicated and replaced by Amasa Lyman.
At the time of Joseph Smith’s death the First Presidency included: Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and Sidney Rigdon. The head of the Presiding High Council was William Marks. The head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was Brigham Young. After the Smith’s were killed, only Sidney Rigdon remained in the First Presidency.
As the member of the First Presidency (holder of the keys) Rigdon claimed to be guardian of the church and Apostle John Page and Elder William Marks supported him in that claim.
Brigham Young as the head Apostle claimed Joseph Smith was an Apostle and held the keys. Because Young was the head Apostle he claimed to replace Smith as the holder of the keys. This was the first time any Mormon thought of an Apostle as being a key holder.
The Church membership voted for Young, as leader of the third level church council, to lead the church; and raise the Quorum of Twelve Apostles over the Presiding High Council while taking over the First Presidency.
To summarize: Five years after the start of the Mormon Church, Smith invented the position of Apostle. The Quorum of Twelve Apostles ran the missionary effort of the church, not the whole church. The Apostles did not hold ‘the keys’ during Smith’s lifetime. The association of ‘keys’ with ‘apostles’ was an invention by Brigham Young to get control of the Church.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Our Primary colors are one, two, three–
Red, yellow, and blue.
Each one has a message for you and me.
Each is a symbol true!
Red is for courage to do what is right,
Yellow for service from morning till night.
Blue is for truth in our thought and our deed.
We will be happy when this is our creed.
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gazelam
Guest
Now that’s a creed I can get behind!!!Our Primary colors are one, two, three–
Red, yellow, and blue.
Each one has a message for you and me.
Each is a symbol true!
Red is for courage to do what is right,
Yellow for service from morning till night.
Blue is for truth in our thought and our deed.
We will be happy when this is our creed.
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gazelam
Guest
I’m not sure how one independently documents an intangible, such as, passing divine authority from one person to another. Do Catholics claim independent verification of their lines of authority?
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Indeed, I have fond memories of primary. Too bad that what is taught to young Mormons isn’t the fullness of truth, about Mormonism.
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
You used to be LDS? I’m assuming you were born into the church if you went to primary? Would you mind telling me your story? How long were you LDS? What made you question the Church? When did you finally decide to leave and why?
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
So when you say eternal life, what you mean is the celestial kingdom? I thought eternal life was granted to all, even those who are in the lesser kingdoms?
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
I’m a little confused. Of course the original twelve are just that… the original 12. I’m not sure how the LDS having Apostles contradicts this since the Bible does say and some were given as Apostles, prophets etc. I don’t think the Prophet of the LDS Church (who is an Apostle) would say he was one of the original 12??? (Or does he?)
Judas was replaced by Matthias (who was not an original 12 but a replacement) but does Catholicism say he is one of the original 12? But then Paul is a different type of Apostle? Why is Matthias not the same as Paul?
Sorry I’m confused now…I’ve obviously misunderstood the Catholic’s idea of Apostolic Succession.
If only the original 12 were meant to be Apostles in their sense and the rest as Paul, messengers. Why are Protestant denominations wrong? As surely they are spreading the message of the gospel? And are therefore messengers or Apostles in that sense?
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
To be fair to Catholicism, Rebiba was in the 16th century, a century also known as The Protestant Reformation. It is very probable given the amount of Catholic buildings and items that were burnt, that any records of his ordination and those before him have been destroyed.
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Horton
Guest
Since you seem to be unable to provide sources with links to your claim I have to assume there is none. The Catholic Church can trace it’s apostolic succession down from St. Peter. The LDS can not do the same. You have nothing prior to Joseph Smith in way of documents, tradition, or proof.
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
One of the posters over on RF mentioned about not knowing where I was in my thinking. I thought Id post the response I gave here too. Just in case anyone is interested 
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gazelam
Guest
Immortality is granted to all, including those in lesser kingdoms. But eternal life is reserved from those sincerely striving to keep God’s commandments. This link sums this up nicely: lds.org/topics/eternal-life?lang=eng
I hope this helps…
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Truth_Faith13
Guest
Yes it does! Thankyou
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