M
Miriam1947
Guest
Already answered earlier in the post. Sorry. 
- Status
P
Pepband_Mom
Guest
Zaffiroborant: I asked a simple question & you are right! Discredit & deflection are weak, worn out tools to be sure, but easy to use. I suspect a straight answer is hard to pry out of individuals when you reach the naked core of their beliefs & they donât want to face ugly truths squarely.
Case in point: When a temple celebrant spills the beans on the temple oath â⌠suffer my life to be takenâŚâ who carries out the death sentence, an affront and a 180 turn from to the Commandment: âthou shalt not kill/murderâ.
Do LDS temple ceremonies demand one to take an oath such as this? YES or NO
As per Jesus & Satan âbeing brothersâ, a careful perusal of the magnificent document the Summa of St Thomas Aquinas, let alone the Holy Bible would put that fable to rest. Impossible for the ultimate created fallen being namely Satan to be regarded as having the same HUMAN NATURE, let alone DIVINE NATURE of CHRIST JESUS, the gracious, loving, condescending Savior.
Satan is of the created ANGELIC REALM, perhaps a Seraphim, a burning one who originally burned with the warm glow of the love of God. I suspect a strong ignorance on the part of many sects in the understanding of angels. Not one angel has a DIVINE NATURE. John 1:1 clearly points out and echoes Genesis 1 in the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was WITH GOD and the WORD WAS GOD. Jesus says the 7 âI Amâsâ in a chapter of John; there are hundredâs of parallels between OT & NT - The Church has joyfully praised & proclaimed: God became Incarnate, took on FLESH; previously he existed as the WORD with the FATHER and the LOVE between them was the SPIRIT. We have trumpeted this from the mountains for 2000 years.
An earnest read of the Summa, let alone the Holy Bible with competent assistance would make short work of this silly notion that Jesus & Satan were spirit brothers, a theological smack-down to be sure. However, there is an obvious pattern in the sad parade of colorful, âreligiousâ, American hucksters, spouting the worn out harangue of âapostasyâ of the Roman Catholic Church so as to contrive a reason for the existence of their man-made system⌠Step one is attack - Tube the RCC & you tube the Holy Bible from whence it came. :hypno:
Smith & Co clearly were not interested in an upholding âthe WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFEâ. their way, their made up truths, their lives of pomposity, arrogance and power, plucking ideas from books & systems such as the masons as well as their own imaginations as they went along blindsiding many hapless victims that got tangled into their web of deceit.
M
Marie5890
Guest
Going back to Semper Fiâs original question.
I was a true blue, full believing, practicing Mormon. Very devout. Lived it, breathed it, taught it. Believed it to the very fiber and sinews of my being.
What do I think of Mormonism? (Not speaking of the people here; they are very good people, very well intentioned)
Itâs a very distorted and corrupt form of Christianity. It causes a spiritual blindness in all of those who strongly and firmly hold to it. A blindness that, in my experience, only Godâs healing grace can heal and correct.
Some try to âfixâ the Mormon distortion thru intellectual and even apologetic reasoning. I have no problem with that. But itâs really a weaker way of going at it and will have limited success and fruitfulness.
Itâs a form of real and deeply rooted spiritual blindness and corruption. A weed that is hard to pull up and dispose ofâŚ
That is what I think of Mormonism and itâs distortions.
Just my .01
L
Luvtosew
Guest
I donât know much about Mormons but proxy baptized comes from 1 Cor 15:29 which Paul says, is that not kinda like the same as praying for the souls in purgatory?? Witch bible verse is that in. Iâm Catholic and donât know, I think its in one of the Mac books right, the jews did it one time.Can you imagine every true Saint who has been proxy-baptized by the Mormons praying for those poor deluded people? Maybe that is what is happening to the LDS church?
I wonder I heard a talk on Mormonisn from someone who was Mormon and after 10 years he left, but he said many Mormons donât really know the true teachings behind the scene, just the top Mormons, as well as many Catholics never knew or do know the meaning of the Mass, I was one of them until recently, so I hate to be too hard on people. Just my opinion. I mean we are Chrisitans, and well I would have to research Mormons but, Iâd rather spend my time on Christian reading.
J
Jerusha
Guest
Luvtosew:
I say. let them go ahead and do it. At this point, everything they can do to rescue their religion will just lead to its end. That is what happens when people lie from the very beginning.
As for my own reasons for being involved in Mormon Studies, they are complex and personal at this point in time.
I say. let them go ahead and do it. At this point, everything they can do to rescue their religion will just lead to its end. That is what happens when people lie from the very beginning.
As for my own reasons for being involved in Mormon Studies, they are complex and personal at this point in time.
L
LivingWaters7
Guest
We dislike the subject because it attempts to imply things that we simply do not believe. I believe the links sufficiently address the matter. I also believe that I directly responded to the issue, so the above is nothing more than poisoning the well.
Further, I find this link to be of interest, specifically the quote from the writings of Lactantius, and ancient Christian theologian and writer:
mormonfortress.com/brother2.html
L
LivingWaters7
Guest
Uh, actually I am being quite clear in what I believe. While we donât use the word âincarnateâ regularly, we obviously believe what the word is talking about, and LDS typically would use âcondescendâ to refer to the incarnation.
And no, we do not âco-optâ words to appear Christian so people will accept the restored Gospel as a Christian faith. Instead, we believe and profess that we are Christian because we accept Jesus Christ as our divine Savior, and it is only through His atoning sacrifice that we can be saved from our sins.
We donât hold to traditional Christian beliefs, no, but we are Christians in our steadfast faith in Christ our Savior. This conversation reminds me of the Evangelicals that say that Catholics are not Christians.
Latter-day Saints believe that we are all children of God our Father in Heaven. We believe that Jesus Christ is the first-born Son, and is also the only-Begotten of the Father in the flesh. We also believe that Jesus Christ was/is Jehovah/Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, and that He came here to teach us how to live, to follow His commandments and His example, and that He atoned for our sins.
Right, that is traditional Christian belief.
I donât believe I ever stated that you were trying to appear Arian (cite the post if I did). I was quite clearly talking about the use of homoousios by Arians before the Nicene Christians co-opted the word and changed the definition, exactly like how you and others are accusing Latter-day Saints of allegedly doing.
Mormon critics in many cases take their arguments out of context, and I have seen it on this board in my short time here.
L
LivingWaters7
Guest
The Latter-day Saint idea of eternal life is that we share in the same life that our Father in Heaven has, becoming joint-heirs with Jesus Christ, through His atonement. We become âgodsâ (Psalm 82 and John 10 come to mind in their usage of that terminology), however God will always be our Father, will always be above us. As far as the Latter-day Saint definition of God, while some aspects may be new, due to our belief in continuing revelation from God, many other aspects of our belief on the nature of God are found anciently, including the belief that the Father is embodied.
L
LivingWaters7
Guest
No, I of course did not say that (cite the post if I did). Latter-day Saints clearly believe that we are children of God our Father in Heaven.LivingWaters,
Did you say that we are children of satan??Can you explain that and the biblical basis for that?
Because this is the Non-Catholic Religions section, where I presume it is okay to discuss Non-Catholic Religions, and members of those religions can participate. Iâve seen Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Quakers, Pagans, Anglicans, Muslims, etc. participating on this forum. Also, while you may not be interested in participating in a LDS board, on the two that I post on there are a number of Catholics and people of other religions that participate.
L
LivingWaters7
Guest
Again, it is clear that Latter-day Saints believe that a restoration of Christâs Church, its priesthood and various beliefs, was necessary, and that a reformation could not accomplish this. While, as I mentioned, many believe that the reformation paved the way, we obviously donât agree with many of the doctrines that came about from the reformation, and we donât believe that a reformation could bring about Christâs Church. Only God Himself could do that, and we believe that He restored His Church to the earth.Thanks to all for the welcomes
Iâm aware of what you believe. I was born and raised LDS and was a VERY strong member of the LDS church until I made the decision to become Catholic. What I was making clear is that your distancing yourself from the reformers by saying "Either way, Latter-day Saints donât really agree with those that seek/sought to reform Christianity. " just isnât true. The LDS church DOES agree with those that sought to reform Christianity and even praises them for their attempts.
Needless to say, most Catholics arenât fans of Luther or Calvin and itâs an automatic turn-off when you start talking about how you believe they were inspired. The way you phrased your original statement may have mislead Catholics that werenât aware of LDS beliefs into thinking that the LDS church is an ally when it comes to the subject of the reformation and thatâs simply not true. The LDS church is grateful for the reformation because it DID pave the way for the LDS church to come into being. Had the reformation not happened, Joseph Smith would have been punished for Heresy and that wouldâve been that.
Just trying to clarify. Going from the LDS church to the Catholic Church, Iâve been amazed at just how much the LDS church really does have a lot of protestant ideology and traditions.
L
LivingWaters7
Guest
No, that is you reading into things that simply arenât there. You stated that I/we are pretending that theosis/deification and exaltation are the same thing. I clearly stated that our belief is different in a few senses. Saying that something is different, whether in a few or many senses, is obviously making a distinction. Latter-day Saints donât have to downplay anything, we just donât have to agree with misrepresentations and misinterpretations of some critics.
Stephen168
New member
K
KathleenGee
Guest
LivingWaters, regarding your reference to Lactantius, again, it is reflective of the misinformation and misunderstanding of early Church teachers and writers.
Although Lactantius spoke beautifully, his writings âcannot hideâ the fact that he did not have a grasp on Christian principles and had almost utter ignorance of Scripture.
Best to keep to Mormon sources.
www.newadvent.org/09736a.htm
Also, you must note that the earliest Christian world had its basic scope of Scriptures, the liturgy of the Mass, the episcopal form of administration, plus the Apostles Creed. For such unity of mind, heart, understanding and practice throughout the entire Christian worldâŚthis is truly the work of the Holy Spirit.
Arian came to his bishop about Christ being begotten and endedâŚSt. Athanasius who is taken opposite to his true intent by Mormon sophistsâŚfought Arianism to the point he was removed and exiled five times from his episcopacy.
This error of Arianism led to the Nicene Creed. In time there came about the science of ChristologyâŚthe Church was still in formation, communications were slow.
Mormonism is an entity of its own and cannot be properly compared to Catholic Orthodoxy, the norm up to the SchismâŚand that more due to cultural and political factors, as well as undefined parameters of the primacy of Peter.
There has been no break in the successors of Peter, but there has been issues of church governance by clerics vs temporal leaders, the growth of Christianity and its establishment in culture and society, the needs of a country to care for its citizens and politics, wars and invasions, all these affecting rules of governingâŚ
The Russian patriarch is now at work in working to restore unity with Rome. We are praying for it.
You canât single out Roman Catholic as being the one in error, but the Orthodox are OK. Otherwise you reveal this construct of anti-Catholicism in Mormonism, and likewise ignorance of what Orthodox belief isâŚyou are looking at cultural differences plus sources used in work in ChristologyâŚdifferent cultureâŚsame beliefs.
Although Lactantius spoke beautifully, his writings âcannot hideâ the fact that he did not have a grasp on Christian principles and had almost utter ignorance of Scripture.
Best to keep to Mormon sources.
www.newadvent.org/09736a.htm
Also, you must note that the earliest Christian world had its basic scope of Scriptures, the liturgy of the Mass, the episcopal form of administration, plus the Apostles Creed. For such unity of mind, heart, understanding and practice throughout the entire Christian worldâŚthis is truly the work of the Holy Spirit.
Arian came to his bishop about Christ being begotten and endedâŚSt. Athanasius who is taken opposite to his true intent by Mormon sophistsâŚfought Arianism to the point he was removed and exiled five times from his episcopacy.
This error of Arianism led to the Nicene Creed. In time there came about the science of ChristologyâŚthe Church was still in formation, communications were slow.
Mormonism is an entity of its own and cannot be properly compared to Catholic Orthodoxy, the norm up to the SchismâŚand that more due to cultural and political factors, as well as undefined parameters of the primacy of Peter.
There has been no break in the successors of Peter, but there has been issues of church governance by clerics vs temporal leaders, the growth of Christianity and its establishment in culture and society, the needs of a country to care for its citizens and politics, wars and invasions, all these affecting rules of governingâŚ
The Russian patriarch is now at work in working to restore unity with Rome. We are praying for it.
You canât single out Roman Catholic as being the one in error, but the Orthodox are OK. Otherwise you reveal this construct of anti-Catholicism in Mormonism, and likewise ignorance of what Orthodox belief isâŚyou are looking at cultural differences plus sources used in work in ChristologyâŚdifferent cultureâŚsame beliefs.
T
triumphguy
Guest
I see the Mormon webmaster co-opts another Catholic Saintâs thought when he uses the quotation: fides quaerens intellectum.
St. Anselm, the Archbishop of Canterbury would turn in his grave.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Correction to linkâŚ
www.newadvent.org/cathen/08736a.htm
There are serious issues over what he actually wrote as well.
LivingWatersâŚ
Do not go to Mormonism â of all places â to find truths of the Catholic/ Orthodox Church. You will never find it.
The early Reformers after the schism with Eastern Orthodoxy, went there to gain convertsâŚthe Orthodox were appalled and rejected them.
So you canât use Eastern Orthodoxy either to prove Mormonism. They are at opposite poles.
Do not trust Mormonism to teach you our faith or find âsimilar beliefs or ideasâ etcâŚno such thing.
Catholicism Orthodoxy stands opposite to MormonismâŚyou canât compare the two.
www.newadvent.org/cathen/08736a.htm
There are serious issues over what he actually wrote as well.
LivingWatersâŚ
Do not go to Mormonism â of all places â to find truths of the Catholic/ Orthodox Church. You will never find it.
The early Reformers after the schism with Eastern Orthodoxy, went there to gain convertsâŚthe Orthodox were appalled and rejected them.
So you canât use Eastern Orthodoxy either to prove Mormonism. They are at opposite poles.
Do not trust Mormonism to teach you our faith or find âsimilar beliefs or ideasâ etcâŚno such thing.
Catholicism Orthodoxy stands opposite to MormonismâŚyou canât compare the two.
T
TexanKnight
Guest
Actually, it IS what has been taught. We cannot help it that your church changes its doctrine more often that some folks change socksâŚ
T
TexanKnight
Guest
If it is a restoration, please show where there is in the New Testament:
- 15 Apostles
- Polygamy
- Leaders who told people to take vengeance and form armies
- Prophets who tell their followers that God told them to build the prophet a house
- Bread and water used at the Eucharist
- Stakes
- Wards
- Stake Presidents
- Elderâs Quorums
- Relief Society
- Blood Oaths like the ones in your temples
V
venite_adoremus
Guest
A basic truth to consider again and again where the LDS church is concerned, and if it occurs earlier in the thread consider this a âbump.â
Do you believe Jesus Christ when He said that not even the gates of hell would prevail against His Church? Do you believe Jesus Christ when He said He would be with us all days until the consummation of the world?
If the answer is yes, come home to Rome.
If the answer is no, then and only then a restoration would be required.
Trouble is, Jesus DID promise these things, and the promises appear in the LDS versions of the Scriptures twice!âonce for the âchurchâ in the Old World (apostolic church) and once for the âchurchâ in the New World (re-established). Both times, the promises failed, according to the LDS view.
This makes the âChristâ of Mormonism a two-time liar.
Do you believe Jesus Christ when He said that not even the gates of hell would prevail against His Church? Do you believe Jesus Christ when He said He would be with us all days until the consummation of the world?
If the answer is yes, come home to Rome.
If the answer is no, then and only then a restoration would be required.
Trouble is, Jesus DID promise these things, and the promises appear in the LDS versions of the Scriptures twice!âonce for the âchurchâ in the Old World (apostolic church) and once for the âchurchâ in the New World (re-established). Both times, the promises failed, according to the LDS view.
This makes the âChristâ of Mormonism a two-time liar.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
It doesnât attempt anything of the sort (maybe youâre reading more into it than is there) it simply underscores how divergent LDS âtheologyâ is from what others believe about God. Do people find it shocking and blasphemous when they first hear it probably some do, because the very idea is impossible to any one other than LDS. It implies nothing about your beliefs but it does show, starkly how off you are from what other believe.
I you would like to throw around âpoisoning the wellâ you should make sure you havenât done just that in a recent exchange.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
So capitalism an communism are different in a few senses.
- Status