Mormonism

[LittleSoldier]

Actually, Joseph was having an affair with a woman named Fanny Alger. He was discovered by Martin Harris. Others also found out, including Emma. To cover it up, Joseph stated he had received a revelation about polygamy.

It’s my impression that Joseph Smith would find himself in a situation and to get out of it would institute a practice such as polygamy or blood atonement and then con people to believe that the practices were holy. He must have been very charismatic but then people who pull cons successfully usually are.

 

[Jerusha]

It’s my impression that Joseph Smith would find himself in a situation and to get out of it would institute a practice such as polygamy or blood atonement and then con people to believe that the practices were holy. He must have been very charismatic but then people who pull cons successfully usually are.

Deservedly, he was then out-conned by another con artist, by the name of Isaac Galland, who sold him some unhealthy swampland on the Mississippi, and some forged quit-claim deeds for Indian land across the river. He couldn’t admit that he had been conned, for he claimed to be a high Prophet of God. Polygamy was just the final straw of the pattern you described.

 

[1voice]

Having never heard of the Bible Code I shouldn’t respond to that part of what you presented. But as for the rest of it, well, that is one human being who appears to be making statements that cannot be backed up and are personal opinion. They may even qualify as personal revelation, which we can’t even discuss.

Just sayin’.

Based on what you have said here … no one can quote/ discuss the Book of Mormon or any other Mormon writings then.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Based on what you have said here … no one can quote/ discuss the Book of Mormon or any other Mormon writings then.

No, because nobody here is claiming that he received the Book of Mormon or any other Mormon writings as they floated down from Heaven. Nobody here is saying that Jesus appeared to her and said that the Mormon Church is the one True Church. Sometimes people refer to Medjugorje and what has allegedly happened there. That has not been approved by the Church. We can’t discuss that. I remember once someone posted that the Virgin Mary had appeared in Boise, Idaho. It was reported and the post was yanked.

The priest who used to be at my parish told me that many people would come up to him and say they had had visions and that God had told them to tell him that he should leave the priesthood and get married. It’s that sort of thing, too. That’s personal revelation (and probably not revelation at all) and that is kind of what that guy was doing when he said that Satan goes after Baptists and Catholics but leaves Mormons and JWs and Seventh Day Adventists alone. How would he even know that? I haven’t read what he wrote and I’m not a moderator and perhaps what he posted was legitimate in terms of forum rules (if I were an expert on forum rules I would never be contacted by moderators regarding what I have posted and I have been contacted).

If there is a forum set up specifically for non-Catholic religions then I think it’s safe to say that the Book of Mormon and other Mormon writings can be discussed. The Mormon Church does exist and has many members and what they believe is important. But if someone said that Joseph Smith appeared to him last week and told him to tell us that we should all become Mormons - that might qualify as personal revelation. IMHO. But then I’m not a moderator and please note that I specifically stated “They may even qualify as personal revelation…” Note the word “may.” It’s not my call and I’m glad for that!

BTW, it’s good to see you’re back.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I’m sorry but I’m confused. I thought that Mormons do not believe in the Trinity yet I keep running across the term “Father, Son, and Holy Ghost” in posts written by Mormons. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit *is *the Trinity.

Will someone please explain this? Thanks.

Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Trinity doctrine. Instead, we believe in a doctrine that has been termed “the Godhead”. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Persons who are in perfect unity and harmony of purpose, love, and will. This unity is so great that the Three can be referred to together as “one Godhead” or “one God”. We believe that all three Persons are divine. We also believe that the Father and the Son are embodied, while the Holy Ghost is not.

Hope that helps.

 

[TexanKnight]

Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Trinity doctrine. Instead, we believe in a doctrine that has been termed “the Godhead”. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Persons who are in perfect unity and harmony of purpose, love, and will. This unity is so great that the Three can be referred to together as “one Godhead” or “one God”. We believe that all three Persons are divine. We also believe that the Father and the Son are embodied, while the Holy Ghost is not.

Hope that helps.

If you read Joseph Smith’s Lectures on Faith, you will find that Mormons originally taught that Father was Spirit and only Christ was flesh.

That changed.

It is impossible to believe in a Trinity when you believe that God was once a sinful man. They are mutually exclusive. Once Joseph started down that road, the idea of the Trinity (which is certainly hinted at in the Book of Mormon) became an inconceivable teaching.

 

[Garland]

Livingwaters7, so you admit you or your church does not believe in the traditional Jesus of the new Testament but a jesus that has been "revealed " to your church. If this is so then my statement that mormons are not christians as have been revealed through , first the Jews and then through the one true Catholic and Apostolic Church whos tradition and scripture keeps it Holy and unblemished in the eyes of God. In order for something to be “restored” it must have been destroyed in Gods eyes by sinful man to need restoring. Since we know the Lord Jesus PROMISED he would be with it till the end, and the end has not happened yet,and we know if you are right then Jesus, the real one, is a liar and could not protect what he had created which is impossible. Since the REAL Jesus is God and all powerful, we know through his REAL CHURCH, ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC, that your jesus is not the all powerful one, but the one who came to joseph smith and wispered to him, you too can be a god. That is the same lie wispered to Eve in the garden and to ever break away from the Real Jesus since the beginning.
There was an early post that said satan did not bother the mormons, j w`s, or adventist and I think I remember in scripture the Lord said satan would not fight satan. To fight the Bride of Christ, thr RCC, is to fight the the traditional Jesus as revealed in the deposite of the faith found only in the RCC.
Please, I beg you leave the den and come home. You will experience the most wonderful joy that can come to men. blessings. Garland

 

[Stephen168]

If you read Joseph Smith’s Lectures on Faith, you will find that Mormons originally taught that Father was Spirit and only Christ was flesh.

That changed.

It is impossible to believe in a Trinity when you believe that God was once a sinful man. They are mutually exclusive. Once Joseph started down that road, the idea of the Trinity (which is certainly hinted at in the Book of Mormon) became an inconceivable teaching.

In my over four years of attending Boy Scouts with Mormons on Wednesday nights during the early 1970’s, I never heard anyone us the term “Godhead,” and I was told by a Mormon, “we do not believe in the Trinity.” It seems to me this is a recent movement my Mormon, Inc. to appear more main stream. Any thoughts?

 

[TexanKnight]

In my over four years of attending Boy Scouts with Mormons on Wednesday nights during the early 1970’s, I never heard anyone us the term “Godhead,” and I was told by a Mormon, “we do not believe in the Trinity.” It seems to me this is a recent movement my Mormon, Inc. to appear more main stream. Any thoughts?

If Joseph Smith and BY were to come back to earth today, they would not recognize the LDS Church.

The LDS Church has, over the past many years, tried harder and harder to appear more mainstream. They hide their beliefs and cover up other ones. Go read the King Follett Discourse and then watch Hinkley on the Larry King Show. It is amazing how much they cover up to appear more palatable.

The problem is, they STILL believe in polygamy, for example. They have not disowned polygamy, they have disowned the PRACTICE of polygamy. They still believe there will be polygamy in heaven.

 

[1voice]

No, because nobody here is claiming that he received the Book of Mormon or any other Mormon writings as they floated down from Heaven. Nobody here is saying that Jesus appeared to her and said that the Mormon Church is the one True Church. Sometimes people refer to Medjugorje and what has allegedly happened there. That has not been approved by the Church. We can’t discuss that. I remember once someone posted that the Virgin Mary had appeared in Boise, Idaho. It was reported and the post was yanked.

The priest who used to be at my parish told me that many people would come up to him and say they had had visions and that God had told them to tell him that he should leave the priesthood and get married. It’s that sort of thing, too. That’s personal revelation (and probably not revelation at all) and that is kind of what that guy was doing when he said that Satan goes after Baptists and Catholics but leaves Mormons and JWs and Seventh Day Adventists alone. How would he even know that? I haven’t read what he wrote and I’m not a moderator and perhaps what he posted was legitimate in terms of forum rules (if I were an expert on forum rules I would never be contacted by moderators regarding what I have posted and I have been contacted).

If there is a forum set up specifically for non-Catholic religions then I think it’s safe to say that the Book of Mormon and other Mormon writings can be discussed. The Mormon Church does exist and has many members and what they believe is important. But if someone said that Joseph Smith appeared to him last week and told him to tell us that we should all become Mormons - that might qualify as personal revelation. IMHO. But then I’m not a moderator and please note that I specifically stated “They may even qualify as personal revelation…” Note the word “may.” It’s not my call and I’m glad for that!

BTW, it’s good to see you’re back.

I enjoy talking to you as well.

I understand what you are saying.
I was just thinking out loud in my comment about the writings of JS … It was tongue in cheek.
… but based on the reality that JS is the source/ verification of his own information. If he was receiving his revelation and posting here in real time… I dont think he would have made it past the gate… any more than the apparition on the grilled cheese sandwich.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Trinity doctrine. Instead, we believe in a doctrine that has been termed “the Godhead”. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Persons who are in perfect unity and harmony of purpose, love, and will. This unity is so great that the Three can be referred to together as “one Godhead” or “one God”. We believe that all three Persons are divine. We also believe that the Father and the Son are embodied, while the Holy Ghost is not.

Hope that helps.

I’m sorry but that doesn’t help at all. This is what I am hearing (and I admit that I may be hearing something incorrectly). Instead of the Trinity, Mormons call God the “Godhead” or “one God”) but it really isn’t one God but three separate persons (definition of “person” please - thanks) that are divine and in perfect unity that is so great that they’re kind of like one but they aren’t really (why not?) and two of them have bodies (human?) and one doesn’t. What kind of bodies do they have? Human? Why do they have bodies? Were they once human beings that became so divine that they turned into a god? Can I turn into a god?

I read in this thread that Mormons believe God the Father (one of those “persons”) sinned. Is what I read a teaching of the Mormon Church? How can God sin? What is the Mormon definition of God? How does one correlate a sinning embodied “person” with a perfect God? Do Mormons believe that God is perfect? If so, how did this sinning “person” become perfect?

What is the point of having a sinning God? How is this explained?



(Sorry about all the questions.)

 

[SteveVH]

Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Trinity doctrine. Instead, we believe in a doctrine that has been termed “the Godhead”. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Persons who are in perfect unity and harmony of purpose, love, and will. This unity is so great that the Three can be referred to together as “one Godhead” or “one God”. We believe that all three Persons are divine. We also believe that the Father and the Son are embodied, while the Holy Ghost is not.

Hope that helps.

Not to pick this apart, but you believe more than that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate Persons. You believe that they are separate beings. But lets use your term as defined by “separate” and at the same time “divine”. You have just admitted polytheism. It matters not how much they may agree with each other or the degree of unity of purpose, they remain “separate” divine persons which translates into separate gods. One who is divine, by definition is God.

The Christian defintion does not contain the term “separate”. We believe in three “distinct” persons without any separation, as they are a unity by sharing the same being. They are truly “one” God, not just in terms of agreeing with each other or being one in purpose, but having only one being. Mysterious, yes, but it is a revealed truth of the nature of God, not a human concoction.

 

[LittleSoldier]

If you read Joseph Smith’s Lectures on Faith, you will find that Mormons originally taught that Father was Spirit and only Christ was flesh.

That changed.

It is impossible to believe in a Trinity when you believe that God was once a sinful man. They are mutually exclusive. Once Joseph started down that road, the idea of the Trinity (which is certainly hinted at in the Book of Mormon) became an inconceivable teaching.

That is what I am finding very difficult to comprehend. God does not sin. God cannot sin because if He did He would not be God. His omnipotence does not allow for the changing of His very Being.

I wonder what sins God supposedly committed. Adultery? Oh wait; from what I’ve read I think he could just say that any woman he wants he can take as his wife. Stealing? Lying? Are these sins still on His soul? Does He have a soul? Who forgave His sins? Himself? The other two “Persons?”

Can I become a god?

 

[1voice]

Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Trinity doctrine. Instead, we believe in a doctrine that has been termed “the Godhead”. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Persons who are in perfect unity and harmony of purpose, love, and will. This unity is so great that the Three can be referred to together as “one Godhead” or “one God”. We believe that all three Persons are divine. We also believe that the Father and the Son are embodied, while the Holy Ghost is not.

Hope that helps.

Question:
Why do you limit the number to 3 … If, as Mormon teaching states, God the Father… himself had a father.

Question:
if the Holy Spirit does not have a body as do the Father and Son … how did he reach the position that he holds … Did he go through the same process as the Father and Son …as is described in Mormon teaching.

 

[tarboy]

maybe this is an oversimplification but I once read the comparison as

Trinity

• three distinct persons united in one being
• two persons are spirit, one is flesh & bone (Christ)

moroons

• three distinct beings with a unitd purpose
• two beings are flesh & bone, one is spirt (Holy Ghost)

Can someone contrast the Catholic view of Christ with a physical body against the mormon view that he has a body?

I’m sorry but that doesn’t help at all. This is what I am hearing (and I admit that I may be hearing something incorrectly). Instead of the Trinity, Mormons call God the “Godhead” or “one God”) but it really isn’t one God but three separate persons (definition of “person” please - thanks) that are divine and in perfect unity that is so great that they’re kind of like one but they aren’t really (why not?) and two of them have bodies (human?) and one doesn’t. What kind of bodies do they have? Human? Why do they have bodies? Were they once human beings that became so divine that they turned into a god? Can I turn into a god?

I read in this thread that Mormons believe God the Father (one of those “persons”) sinned. Is what I read a teaching of the Mormon Church? How can God sin? What is the Mormon definition of God? How does one correlate a sinning embodied “person” with a perfect God? Do Mormons believe that God is perfect? If so, how did this sinning “person” become perfect?

What is the point of having a sinning God? How is this explained?



(Sorry about all the questions.)

 

[Janderich]

That is what I am finding very difficult to comprehend. God does not sin. God cannot sin because if He did He would not be God. His omnipotence does not allow for the changing of His very Being.

I wonder what sins God supposedly committed. Adultery? Oh wait; from what I’ve read I think he could just say that any woman he wants he can take as his wife. Stealing? Lying? Are these sins still on His soul? Does He have a soul? Who forgave His sins? Himself? The other two “Persons?”

Can I become a god?

Be careful the assumptions you make of God and how he came to be God. I would not dare make him out to be a sinner and Joseph Smith also does not make him out to be such. These are your assumptions based on human reasoning and those who do not respect our beliefs.

Let me quote from Joseph Smith as given in the King Follett discourse. In doing so I believe I will provide information as plain as can be stated. Hear it, if you will, and if not then be silent on the matter and let the crazy “Mormons” believe what they will. For it seems people on this forum focus on it more than we do. For we recognize we are nothing! We focus on improving our state here and now. Potential is simply that, potential and what is discussed below is an almost infinite amount of time from us. Also we exclude no righteous and sincere person from this same possibility.

What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

“The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.” (John 5:19)

Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.

 

[nevadairenaeus]

Can someone explain how the Catholic view of Christ with a physical body is different from the mormon view that he has a body?

The main difference stems from how Catholics and Mormons view the nature of God. In Mormon theology God is in essence a human being, but more perfect, glorified, and advanced than we are. Christ existed as a human spirit before his birth on earth, just as we also existed as human spirits before coming to earth. Christ acquired a physical human body just as we have. Both Christ and ourselves are of the same ‘species’ as God the Father. We are divinity in embryo. There is some part of us, our ‘intelligence’, that is co-eternal with God and uncreated.

In traditional Christianity there is a strict distinction made between God and created things. Christ, as the Son, is fully God. God from God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father, as the creed states. We, on the other hand, are 100% created beings. When Christ became man he acquired not only a physical human body but also a human soul. Christ united the divine with what is not by nature divine - the human.

So in catholic Christianity Jesus is both true God and true man, two utterly distinct categories. In Mormonism Jesus is also viewed as divine, but divinity coincides with humanity. God is human, therefore God is embodied. Even the Holy Spirit will have to get a physical human body at some stage to fully progress.

 

[nevadairenaeus]

Joseph Smith also taught in the same sermon:

“It is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.”

I personally find this to be problematic. If there is one consistent message of the Bible (and the Book of Mormon by the way) it is that God has always been God. God is eternal and unchanging. To assert that the Father somehow progressed into his Godhood is to overturn 3000 years of Jewish and Christian teaching. To me the above statement automatically disqualifies Joseph from being a true prophet.

 

[nevadairenaeus]

Here’s how Melito, a bishop of Sardis in the 2nd century, explained it:

“For there is no need, to persons of intelligence, to attempt to prove, from the deeds of Christ subsequent to His baptism, that His soul and His body, His human nature like ours, were real, and no phantom of the imagination. For the deeds done by Christ after His baptism, and especially His miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the Deity hidden in His flesh. For, being at once both God and perfect man likewise, He gave us sure indications of His two natures: of His Deity, by His miracles during the three years that elapsed after His baptism; of His humanity, during the thirty similar periods which preceded His baptism, in which, by reason of His low estate as regards the flesh, He concealed the signs of His Deity, although He was the true God existing before all ages.”

and

“On these accounts He came to us; on these accounts, though He was incorporeal, He formed for Himself a body after our fashion, -appearing as a sheep, yet still remaining the Shepherd; being esteemed a servant, yet not renouncing the Sonship; being carried in the womb of Mary, yet arrayed in the nature of His Father; treading upon the earth, yet filling heaven; appearing as an infant, yet not discarding the eternity of His nature; being invested with a body, yet not circumscribing the unmixed simplicity of His Godhead; being esteemed poor, yet not divested of His riches; needing sustenance inasmuch as He was man, yet not ceasing to feed the entire world inasmuch as He is God; putting on the likeness of a servant, yet not impairing the likeness of His Father. He sustained every character belonging to Him in an immutable nature: He was standing before Pilate, and at the same time was sitting with His Father; He was nailed upon the tree, and yet was the Lord of all things.”

"

 

[TexanKnight]

Be careful the assumptions you make of God and how he came to be God. I would not dare make him out to be a sinner and Joseph Smith also does not make him out to be such. These are your assumptions based on human reasoning and those who do not respect our beliefs.

Not true at ALL. Janderich is doing more of the current LDS party-line: Hide the truth about past doctrine. It was an LDS prophet who said “As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become”.

Read it again…AS MAN IS. Man IS a lot of things, including sinful. It is LDS doctrine, no matter how much Janderich tries to hide it.

Let me quote from Joseph Smith as given in the King Follett discourse. In doing so I believe I will provide information as plain as can be stated. Hear it, if you will, and if not then be silent on the matter and let the crazy “Mormons” believe what they will. For it seems people on this forum focus on it more than we do. For we recognize we are nothing! We focus on improving our state here and now. Potential is simply that, potential and what is discussed below is an almost infinite amount of time from us. Also we exclude no righteous and sincere person from this same possibility.

That is ONE focus. Remember, we can become gods just like god became one. But, the LDS Church is trying hard to appear more mainstream. So, they try to hide and gloss over this teaching.

what does Joseph say?

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man.”

God was as we are? We are sinners. And what is God now? Not a true God, but AN EXALTED MAN. Really?

This is dangerous teaching. It is trying to make God into something more understandable. Heretics have been doing that since time began. Please do not fall for this. I fell for it once and I hope and pray no one else does.

Be Blessed