Mormonism

[garyo49]

Be careful the assumptions you make of God and how he came to be God. I would not dare make him out to be a sinner and Joseph Smith also does not make him out to be such. These are your assumptions based on human reasoning and those who do not respect our beliefs.

Let me quote from Joseph Smith as given in the King Follett discourse. In doing so I believe I will provide information as plain as can be stated. Hear it, if you will, and if not then be silent on the matter and let the crazy “Mormons” believe what they will. For it seems people on this forum focus on it more than we do. For we recognize we are nothing! We focus on improving our state here and now. Potential is simply that, potential and what is discussed below is an almost infinite amount of time from us. Also we exclude no righteous and sincere person from this same possibility.

“The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.” (John 5:19)

Jan, the reason mormons don’t want to focus on the “plurality of Gods” doctrine, taught by every prophet, seer, and revelator, so called, since Joe Smith is because it is an embarrassment to you because it is blasphemous. Why do you think Hinckley in that interview with the Times reporter acted like he had never heard of it before? I think he just wished it would all go away. I’ve got a good idea. Why don’t mormons admit that Smith was a false prophet and they wouldn’t have to defend that doctrine any more? If you need examples as to why he was, just ask me.

 

[TexanKnight]

No, I do not admit that the Jesus I as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ believe in is not the Jesus of the New Testament (and none of my above posts say or imply that).

Actually, you do. You may not mean to, but you do. When you believe in a Christ who is the son of a god who used to be a man, then you believe in a different Christ. When you believe in a Christ not powerful to keep His promises, you believe in a different Christ.

Yes, Catholics/Orthodox/etc reject the possibility of an apostasy and subsequent restoration of Christ’s Church, however Latter-day Saints of course accept such a premise, and also believe that the Bible points to it.

Actually, the Bible does not point to a total apostasy, nor can you point to a verse that says that. What we DO have is a Christ who promises His Church will never fail. We have a Christ who promises he will be with us ALWAYS. Both disprove the notion of a total apostasy.

Firstly, for Latter-day Saints, it is not that Jesus Christ abandoned us, nor is it that Christ did not keep His promises, or is a liar.

Actually, it is. For the LDS Church to be true, Christ had to lie to us when he said He would NEVER leave us and that His Church would never fail. You must also believe Jesus was cruel to his best friends.

Instead, we believe that the people abandoned Him, using their own free will, since God doesn’t force anyone to do what they do not want to do, as we see throughout the Bible. Scriptures that Latter-day Saints believe point to this apostasy (both individual and total) of the ancient Church of Jesus Christ include Isaiah 24:5, Isaiah 60:2, Isaiah 29:13, Amos 8:11-12, Matthew 13:25, Matthew 24:24, Acts 20:29, John 6:66, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 2 Timothy 1:15, Revelation 13:7, and many more.

None of those verses point to a total apostasy. Second, God has shown in the OT that even when rejected, He does not give up on us. The LDS god is a very weak god, which is understandable because, according to Joseph Smith, he is merely an exalted man.

 

[TexanKnight]

Latter-day Saints believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost really are “one God” in the sense that while the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Persons (Latter-day Saints would also be comfortable with interchanging Persons with Entities, Individuals, Personages, Beings (noting here that Latter-day Saints are not using the word “being” in the same way that is being used in defining the Trinity doctrine)), they are also in a perfect unity of purpose, will, love, and power, and therefore “one Godhead” or “one God”. That is how Latter-day Saints use that terminology.

Actually, the LDS notion over time is all over the board. YOu have God as Spirit, God as flesh, Adam as God, God as exalted man. The LDS Church is trying to tie all of this confusion up in a more acceptable little package.

Latter-day Saints believe that the Father and the Son are embodied.

Not according to Joseph Smith in Lectures on Faith, Chapter 5.

Latter-day Saints believe that through the atonement of Jesus Christ, we can become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, and can become gods.

The only people who have taught we could become gods are Satan and Joseph Smith.

It is okay. As far as God the Father sinning, God the Father once being a man as we are does not necessitate that He was also a sinner,

Sure it does. As Man IS. Man IS a sinner. Your god is an exalted MAN.

in the same way that Jesus Christ once being a man does not mean that He was a sinner (since we know that He was not).

Bad analogy. We believe Jesus was God who became man. You believe god was a man who became god. Big difference. And the saying is not “As Jesus the Man was, God once was…” It is “as MAN IS, God once was…”

Also, even if one entertains a belief that God was once a man who was a sinner (a belief that I do not hold), it speaks volumes of the power of Atonement if it can wash away our sins, make us clean, etc. As a Latter-day Saint, I am grateful for the gift of repentance and its cleansing power.

So a man becomes god and then cleanses his past manhood? This is an odd belief. Be careful readers. This is heresy.

Be Blessed and have a blessed day

 

[LittleSoldier]

Latter-day Saints believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost really are “one God” in the sense that while the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Persons (Latter-day Saints would also be comfortable with interchanging Persons with Entities, Individuals, Personages, Beings (noting here that Latter-day Saints are not using the word “being” in the same way that is being used in defining the Trinity doctrine)), they are also in a perfect unity of purpose, will, love, and power, and therefore “one Godhead” or “one God”. That is how Latter-day Saints use that terminology.

Latter-day Saints believe that the Father and the Son are embodied. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all Spirit, yet the Father and the Son also have bodies of flesh and bone. The Son possesses His glorified, resurrected body. Many Latter-day Saints believe that the Father also had a mortal existence somewhere at sometime, and many also believe that He was Divine during this mortal existence in the same way that Jesus Christ was Divine during His mortal existence. Others may believe that the Father progressed from mortality to Divinity. Others believe other things. What is important is that it has been revealed that the Father and the Son, in addition to being Spirit, also have bodies of flesh and bone, and the Holy Ghost does not.

Was this a personal revelation from God to Joseph Smith? I have to admit I am troubled because something that is so important to me - the character of God - is defined in different ways by different Mormons. To me this means there is no authority that has been given the power to bind and loosen, as the Church was given by Jesus. It reminds me a bit of “Cafeteria Catholics” who pick and choose which doctrines and dogma they will accept (usually the ones that fit with their preconceived notions and allow them to continue sinning without feeling guilty). God is what God is. If some Mormons believe one thing and other Mormons believe another, opposite thing about God and if those differing beliefs are accepted by the Mormon Church, that shows me that there is a severe problem. Are those differing beliefs acceptable to the Mormon Church? Is there a teaching authority similar to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church?

Latter-day Saints believe that through the atonement of Jesus Christ, we can become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, and can become gods. This is made possible through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, by having faith in Jesus Christ as one’s divine Savior, repenting of our sins, and participating in various ordinances and entering into covenants with God, such as baptism, confirmation, priesthood ordination, endowment, and sealing (eternal marriage). God will always be our God and will always be over us, and He also allows us to participate in the life that He lives, to become perfect as He is, through Christ’s atonement.

But Jesus is God and we would be gods, am I correct? So we are not at the same level as Jesus or God the Father or God the Holy Spirit? It’s true that we can share in God’s divinity and perfection, as nothing that is imperfect can enter Heaven. But even in Heaven we are lowly compared to God. All the saints in Heaven (and those in Purgatory) praise and glorify God. They do not believe they are equal to Him in any way. They are not omnipotent or omniscient. To Catholics and most non-Catholic Christians the height of our being in Heaven with God is to humbly adore Him. We can share some of His being but we can never become gods nor would we want to. Never.

It is okay. As far as God the Father sinning, God the Father once being a man as we are does not necessitate that He was also a sinner, in the same way that Jesus Christ once being a man does not mean that He was a sinner (since we know that He was not). Also, even if one entertains a belief that God was once a man who was a sinner (a belief that I do not hold), it speaks volumes of the power of Atonement if it can wash away our sins, make us clean, etc. As a Latter-day Saint, I am grateful for the gift of repentance and its cleansing power.

Again, it appears that what would be considered infallible (dogma) to the Catholic Church is relativistic in the Mormon Church. Some believe this, some believe that and it’s OK? As far as Jesus, He is God Incarnate. He was not a human being who became God. God the Father was never a human being. It doesn’t speak volumes of the power of atonement because if God sinned who forgave His sins? God? Did God forgive God’s sins? If God the Father was a man did He live on earth? I have heard that Mormons believe that God lived on another planet and if we become gods we will be given planets to rule. Is that true?

I wonder about your statement about the gift of repentance. Repentance isn’t a gift. Absolution, justice, and mercy are gifts. Free will is a gift. We are able to repent because God gave us free will. When we repent and atone through the Sacrament of Reconciliation we are absolved of our sins - that is the gift.

lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/god_sinner.htm
lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/godhead/farms_man.htm

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the links. I will check them out (I have a sick cat to tend to so my time here is limited). It is certainly complicated.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Heavenly Mother is not a member of the Godhead, as the Godhead consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Not much is known about Heavenly Mother at this time.

Helpful links to understand the Latter-day Saint perspective:

en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Heavenly_Mother
maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=1&id=639

But she is a god/godess, just as the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, who aided in the creation.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Now what about Matthew 16:18 and the gates of hell (or more precisely, the gates of hades)? Firstly, “hell”, as mentioned, is not referring to the traditional understanding of hell, but to hades, or the underworld, a place of waiting for all the spirits of the dead. So, the verse is referring to the gates of the underworld, which shall not prevail against the Church.

The traditional Catholic understanding of hell (or hades) is that at one time it was composed of more than just one part. There was (and still is) the place where those who have chosen to reject God spend eternity and there was also the Bosom of Abraham which is where the righteous went before Jesus’ sacrifice opened the Gates of Heaven.

Jesus Christ descended to hades after His death as we know, and broke down the gates of hades.

No. Jesus did not break the gates of hades. Those who turned away from God and chose hell were not allowed to leave hell and enter Heaven. His sacrifice opened the Gates of Heaven and allowed those who were in the Bosom of Abraham to enter Heaven. The passage refers to the hell sans Abraham’s Bosom (which no longer exists).

Through Christ’s atonement and resurrection, we know that death (both spiritual and physical) does not have a hold on us, and that we can overcome both through Jesus Christ, and therefore the gates of hades do not prevail.

No. Jesus said that the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church.

Further, in the same way that Jesus Christ died and was resurrected (and death did not lay claim to Him, i.e. the gates of hades did not prevail against Christ), so too did the Church, which is His Body, did “die” and was resurrected, so clearly the gates of hades did not prevail against it either. Christ promised that He would be with His Church until the end of the “age” as various Biblical translations render the Greek (the KJV can be seen as not a literal translation in this instance). The belief in an apostasy is therefore consistent with this verse, as Christ certainly was with the Church until the end of the age, i.e. that dispensation. Further, Latter-day Saints have always said that the light of Christ is within all people, and that even throughout the Apostasy, Christ was still with His followers and those that sought after Him.

Oh, wow. Jesus’ Church DIED? I do not want to be accused of making assumptions so I am going to ask if the Mormon Church believes that it was the one that resurrected Jesus’ Church after its “death.” Please clarify.

 

[Stephen168]

As far as “separate Persons” vs “separate beings”, Latter-day Saint Christians do not share the traditional Christian distinction between “person” vs “being”, as used in the definitions of the Trinity doctrine. Instead, we use the words interchangeably, as commonly done in modern English.

So Mormons believe all beings are humans. I don’t think that is common in modern English.

Be•ing [bee-ing] noun
1. the fact of existing; existence (as opposed to nonexistence).
2. conscious, mortal existence; life: Our being is as aninstantaneous flash of light in the midst of eternal night.
3. substance or nature: of such a being as to arouse fear.
4. something that exists: inanimate beings.
5.a living thing: strange, exotic beings that live in the depths of the sea.

 

[LittleSoldier]

lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/god_sinner.htm
lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/godhead/farms_man.htm

Hope that helps.

OK; I have read what you provided (thank you!) in the links. Some of it was presented to me in an earlier post. Both links state things that appear to me to be fallacious. For example, the article I am led to using the second link states:

Men and women can thus relate to him as a father and pray to him with the perfect assurance that he understands our struggles. His experience contributes to his empathy as well as to his omniscient and all-loving capacity to judge his children. President Young observed that “it must be that God knows something about temporal things, and has had a body and been on an earth, were it not so He would not know how to judge men righteously, according to the temptations and sin they have had to contend with.”

When a Being is omniscient He knows absolutely everything. Omniscience is not like a college degree that one can obtain by studying and learning. Part of the definition of God is omniscience; without it He is not God. It is the same with omnibenevolence. God (the Holy Trinity) has been in existence forever. God did not have to start off as a human being and learn. From whom would He learn? He created us! He created us *as *an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent Being but somehow He learned how to become omniscient and omnibenevolent from us? He was around long before human beings were around. He created us. He CREATED us. We were not living here on earth before we were created. We could not have been as we did not exist. God exists in all time - not us. He is the Creator - we are the created.

An omniscient Being does not have to be taught by His creations as to how to “judge men righteously…” An omniscient Being (and there is but one - God) knows how to judge men righteously because He is omniscient. I am no expert in logic but there is something wrong with the reasoning in what I read in both statements from both links.

President Young’s statement is not true. We are created in God’s image; He is not created in ours.

I will have to respond to the first link later.

God bless.

 

[Keith_B]

As previous posts have pointed out Mormonism is in symbiosis with Satanism. Learning what Mormons believe in general is as far a someone should go. To debate or listen to a Mormon try to defend their beliefs is detrimental to your soul. The poor Mormons that have fell victims of the deception of Satan, and has spread through their generations, need our prayers that they one day will let in the Holly Spirit and come out of their darkness. The indoctrination they receive is so upside down compared to Christianity, that trying to talk religion with them is like communicating with someone from Mars. As Catholics we should be vigilant in our payers to maintain the strength we need to see through the errors that are being thrown at us every day.

 

[garyo49]

OK; I have read what you provided (thank you!) in the links. Some of it was presented to me in an earlier post. Both links state things that appear to me to be fallacious. For example, the article I am led to using the second link states:

Men and women can thus relate to him as a father and pray to him with the perfect assurance that he understands our struggles. His experience contributes to his empathy as well as to his omniscient and all-loving capacity to judge his children. President Young observed that “it must be that God knows something about temporal things, and has had a body and been on an earth, were it not so He would not know how to judge men righteously, according to the temptations and sin they have had to contend with.”

When a Being is omniscient He knows absolutely everything. Omniscience is not like a college degree that one can obtain by studying and learning. Part of the definition of God is omniscience; without it He is not God. It is the same with omnibenevolence. God (the Holy Trinity) has been in existence forever. God did not have to start off as a human being and learn. From whom would He learn? He created us! He created us *as *an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent Being but somehow He learned how to become omniscient and omnibenevolent from us? He was around long before human beings were around. He created us. He CREATED us. We were not living here on earth before we were created. We could not have been as we did not exist. God exists in all time - not us. He is the Creator - we are the created.

An omniscient Being does not have to be taught by His creations as to how to “judge men righteously…” An omniscient Being (and there is but one - God) knows how to judge men righteously because He is omniscient. I am no expert in logic but there is something wrong with the reasoning in what I read in both statements from both links.

President Young’s statement is not true. We are created in God’s image; He is not created in ours.

I will have to respond to the first link later.

God bless.

In the Bible AND the Book of Mormon it says that God is spirit. Neither say that he is or ever was MAN. Brigham Young also said that Adam is our God. Another fallen prophet for LDS.

 

[Allen2Saint]

To debate or listen to a Mormon try to defend their beliefs is detrimental to your soul…The indoctrination they receive is so upside down compared to Christianity, that trying to talk religion with them is like communicating with someone from Mars.

As has been pointed out to me recently by the webmaster, the operative word here is “charitable” when we speak to people of other faiths and of course, our own. I think we can find a way to disagree with someone while maintaining a charitable attitude.

And, on a more operative note, I believe we can interact with people of all faiths to show our love and our theology in a positive way. I don’t think lengthy debates help anyone and I have never seen them bring anyone anywhere spiritually, but you can’t look someone in the eye and hug them on a forum board. As long as it doesn’t devolve into name calling, I think we are in the care of the Holy Spirit on this as we reach out to each other.

 

[tarboy]

One should not engage in evangelism until one has adequate catechism and is guided by the Holy Spirit. Simply painting others with a “Satanism” brush tells me - not ready to evangelize.

keep praying for guidance

As previous posts have pointed out Mormonism is in symbiosis with Satanism. Learning what Mormons believe in general is as far a someone should go. To debate or listen to a Mormon try to defend their beliefs is detrimental to your soul. The poor Mormons that have fell victims of the deception of Satan, and has spread through their generations, need our prayers that they one day will let in the Holly Spirit and come out of their darkness. The indoctrination they receive is so upside down compared to Christianity, that trying to talk religion with them is like communicating with someone from Mars. As Catholics we should be vigilant in our payers to maintain the strength we need to see through the errors that are being thrown at us every day.

 

[LittleSoldier]

As previous posts have pointed out Mormonism is in symbiosis with Satanism. Learning what Mormons believe in general is as far a someone should go. To debate or listen to a Mormon try to defend their beliefs is detrimental to your soul. The poor Mormons that have fell victims of the deception of Satan, and has spread through their generations, need our prayers that they one day will let in the Holly Spirit and come out of their darkness. The indoctrination they receive is so upside down compared to Christianity, that trying to talk religion with them is like communicating with someone from Mars. As Catholics we should be vigilant in our payers to maintain the strength we need to see through the errors that are being thrown at us every day.

Perhaps it is as far as some people should go but that is a very broad statement you have made. Mormons are children of God, created in love, and Jesus gave His life for them. They are very important, as all people are. Prayer is good. Prayer is fantastic. It has amazing power, it helps guide us, it can help us obtain wisdom and the ability to interact with others charitably. It can literally lead us to Heaven.

However, I have given my life to God’s people. This is my calling, as it is the calling of all Christians. I know the Catholic Church is the True Church. I know that she was founded by Jesus on the rock of Peter and that she has the power to bind and loosen. I know that what she teaches is truth. I know that she is the Body of Christ and the Bride of Jesus. Of this I am sure. I am not going to leave the Church and no Mormon has (so far) attempted to coerce me into leaving the Church. Proselytizing is a violation of forum rules. So far I have not seen anything close to proselytizing in this thread.

The Church encourages us to question, to seek answers. That is what I am doing. I am trying to understand the beliefs of others - beliefs that appear to be strongly held. I believe that most Mormons are good people who love God and try to live their faith. The Mormons who have posted in this thread (and those I have met in person) have been charitable to me. What I am doing is not detrimental to my soul. Presenting Church teaching and asking honest questions in a charitable discussion is not detrimental to my soul.

 

[LittleSoldier]

As has been pointed out to me recently by the webmaster, the operative word here is “charitable” when we speak to people of other faiths and of course, our own. I think we can find a way to disagree with someone while maintaining a charitable attitude.

And, on a more operative note, I believe we can interact with people of all faiths to show our love and our theology in a positive way. I don’t think lengthy debates help anyone and I have never seen them bring anyone anywhere spiritually, but you can’t look someone in the eye and hug them on a forum board. As long as it doesn’t devolve into name calling, I think we are in the care of the Holy Spirit on this as we reach out to each other.

 

[Janderich]

OK; I have read what you provided (thank you!) in the links. Some of it was presented to me in an earlier post. Both links state things that appear to me to be fallacious. For example, the article I am led to using the second link states:

Men and women can thus relate to him as a father and pray to him with the perfect assurance that he understands our struggles. His experience contributes to his empathy as well as to his omniscient and all-loving capacity to judge his children. President Young observed that “it must be that God knows something about temporal things, and has had a body and been on an earth, were it not so He would not know how to judge men righteously, according to the temptations and sin they have had to contend with.”

When a Being is omniscient He knows absolutely everything. Omniscience is not like a college degree that one can obtain by studying and learning. Part of the definition of God is omniscience; without it He is not God. It is the same with omnibenevolence. God (the Holy Trinity) has been in existence forever. God did not have to start off as a human being and learn. From whom would He learn? He created us! He created us *as *an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent Being but somehow He learned how to become omniscient and omnibenevolent from us? He was around long before human beings were around. He created us. He CREATED us. We were not living here on earth before we were created. We could not have been as we did not exist. God exists in all time - not us. He is the Creator - we are the created.

An omniscient Being does not have to be taught by His creations as to how to “judge men righteously…” An omniscient Being (and there is but one - God) knows how to judge men righteously because He is omniscient. I am no expert in logic but there is something wrong with the reasoning in what I read in both statements from both links.

President Young’s statement is not true. We are created in God’s image; He is not created in ours.

I will have to respond to the first link later.

God bless.

Growth and progression are part of the eternities. One never stops progressing. Of course God is omniscient, omnipotent, etc. However, he progresses as his children progress. As God states in the Book of Moses, “This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” (Moses 1:39)

We would agree that God has been in existence forever. However, we would also add that all matter has been in existence forever. That includes you and me. There is no beginning and there is no end. We are eternal. As was said in the Sound of Music, “Nothing comes from nothing, Nothing ever could”. It is such simple logic even a song gets it right.

While I realize you do not agree. It is rather straight forward.

 

[Keith_B]

God asks us to be charitable and 2 pass on his love to the people we encounter.
Because I have seen how mormonism is so cleverly crafted, and preys on people like a cancer, if they have any weakness in their faith, is why I made the comment about debating a mormon being detramental to your soul.
Mormonism being 1 of the fastest growing churchs is another indication where in the last days.

 

[Stephen168]

God did not have to start off as a human being and learn. From whom would He learn?

…

 

[Stephen168]

Growth and progression are part of the eternities. One never stops progressing. Of course God is omniscient, omnipotent, etc. However, he progresses as his children progress. As God states in the Book of Moses, “This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” (Moses 1:39)

We would agree that God has been in existence forever. However, we would also add that all matter has been in existence forever. That includes you and me. There is no beginning and there is no end. We are eternal. As was said in the Sound of Music, “Nothing comes from nothing, Nothing ever could”. It is such simple logic even a song gets it right.

While I realize you do not agree. It is rather straight forward.

Define omniscient, omnipotent, exist, eternal, God, eternities, progress, create

 

[Allen2Saint]

@Keith,

I know I keep saying this, but as a Catholic chaplain, I spent all day every day with people of all and no faiths. Some of that time was spent in prison and psych. But no harm came to me. If anything, those I served were my teachers and showed me many things about God. I saw quickly where debate gets anyone( nowhere) but to shun them as some kind of corrupting or evil force is against the basic tenets of our belief, to my understanding.

End times is a whole other kettle of fish, but I hope you’re secure in God’s love for you and that you are living a happy life.

 

[TexanKnight]

@Keith,

I know I keep saying this, but as a Catholic chaplain, I spent all day every day with people of all and no faiths. Some of that time was spent in prison and psych. But no harm came to me. If anything, those I served were my teachers and showed me many things about God. I saw quickly where debate gets anyone( nowhere) but to shun them as some kind of corrupting or evil force is against the basic tenets of our belief, to my understanding.

End times is a whole other kettle of fish, but I hope you’re secure in God’s love for you and that you are living a happy life.

I am not a Chaplain, but I, too, have taught in prisons. I believe we should be charitable to the people but very uncharitable to the heresies. If we do not speak out strongly against false doctrine, we acquiesce to it. If we do not speak boldly against untruth, we are de facto accepting of that false truth.

Our leaders have not told us to be meek against false doctrine, but to fight it with all our being.

My quotes speak for themselves.

As an ex Mormon who served as a missionary, I understand the danger of the doctrine.