Mormons and Alma 11:28-30

[oat_soda]

And there isn’t any reason to call people names!!!

you don’t have to be so hurtful!!!

· “Moreover, Mormons teach that Christ is a secondary, inferior god.”
· “Mormons now believe that Christ’s divinity is virtually equal to that of his Father’s. As we have seen, this is a compromised godhood: Jesus Christ merely joins the end of a long line of gods who have preceded him, an infinite “regression” of divine beings whose origin Mormons cannot explain.”

so this proves my point that they do not technically consider Jesus or the Holy Spirit God, but only the Father, similar to muslims and jws.

. And now, behold, this is the ddoctrine• of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the eFather, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is fone• God, without end. Amen."

this sounds like the Trinity but again, we can’t interpret it, their prophets must.

 

[tkdnick]

oat soda:

you don’t have to be so hurtful!!!

I get the feeling you’re mocking me.

 

[JRR]

On June 4, 1998, while speaking to 2,400 LDS in Paris, LDS President Hinckley confessed that Mormons do not believe in the same “Jesus” in which Christians believe. The official LDS publication Church News recounted the event:

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints “do not believe in the traditional Christ. No I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this Dispensation in the fullness of times.”

Gordon B. Hinckley. Quoted in “Crown of Gospel is Upon Our Heads,” LDS Church News, June 20, 1998, 7.

In a 1977 Ensign magazine article, published by the LDS church a high-ranking Mormon leader Bernard P. Brockbank revealed: “It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons.”

Bernard P. Brockbank, “The Living Christ,” Ensign, May 1977, 26.

The Mormon Jesus

A literal son (spirit child) of a god (Elohim) and his wife,

Jesus was conceived on earth via sexual intercourse between Heavenly Father and Mary,

The elder brother of all spirits born in the pre-existence to the Heavenly Father,

A polygamous Jewish male,

One of three gods overseeing this planet,

Atoned only for Adam’s transgression by sweating blood in Gethsemene,

Is the literal spirit brother of Lucifer,

Jesus’ sacrifical death is not able to cleanse some people of all their sins,

There is no salvatiion without accepting Jospeh Smith as a prophet of God.

 

[Tmaque]

oat soda:

you don’t have to be so hurtful!!! so this proves my point that they do not technically consider Jesus or the Holy Spirit God, but only the Father, similar to muslims and jws. this sounds like the Trinity but again, we can’t interpret it, their prophets must.

This is right from Mormon.org:
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is Heavenly Father’s Only Begotten Son in the flesh. He is our Redeemer. Through Jesus Christ, Heavenly Father has provided a way for all people to become like Him and return to live with Him forever.
We love Christ. We worship Christ. He is our example and our Savior.

Under the heading “The nature of God” you find the the descriptions of he Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. I challenge you to find an official JW or Muslim site that lists the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ under a heading that describes who God is.

 

[Tmaque]

I’m no longer LDS but this is just nonsense. Let me attempt to correct some of your claims.

JRR:

The Mormon Jesus

A literal son (spirit child) of a god (Elohim) and his wife,

correct

JRR:

Jesus was conceived on earth via sexual intercourse between Heavenly Father and Mary,

incorrect
LDS doctrine makes no such claim

JRR:

The elder brother of all spirits born in the pre-existence to the Heavenly Father,

correct

JRR:

A polygamous Jewish male,

incorrect
LDS doctrine makes no such claim

JRR:

One of three gods overseeing this planet,

incorrect, complicated to explain, but incorrect nonetheless

JRR:

Atoned only for Adam’s transgression by sweating blood in Gethsemene,

incorrect
LDS doctrine makes no such claim

JRR:

Is the literal spirit brother of Lucifer,

correct technically, but incorrect in the context portrayed

JRR:

Jesus’ sacrifical death is not able to cleanse some people of all their sins,

incorrect
LDS doctrine makes no such claim

JRR:

There is no salvatiion without accepting Jospeh Smith as a prophet of God.

incorrect
LDS doctrine makes no such claim, especially in the context you’re trying to place it in.

I would never defend LDS doctrine and I haven’t done that here. Your representations of LDS doctrine are almost all incorrect. Let’s make sure we know the facts before we accuse and attack.

 

[oat_soda]

I challenge you to find an official JW or Muslim site that lists the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ under a heading that describes who God is.

i proved my point. mormons DO NOT officially believe that Jesus is God. he either is God or isn’t.

all you do is tell people that they need to get their facts straight about mormonism but you never can post them. you, mormon fool, charity tom, and the rest, like correcting people but never post anything offical. this is getting really old. here is what JWs say about Jesus. sounds just like mormonsism

1. Jesus lived in heaven as a spirit person before he came to earth. He was God’s first creation, and so he is called the “firstborn” Son of God. …Jesus is the only Son that God created by himself. Jehovah used the prehuman Jesus as his “master worker” in creating all other things in heaven and on earth…God also used him as His chief spokesman. That is why Jesus is called "the Word…JESUS never claimed to be God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way—not in power, not in knowledge, not in age.

In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God.

the holy spirit is not a person and it is not part of a Trinity. The holy spirit is God’s active force that he uses to accomplish his will. It is not equal to God but is always at his disposition and subordinate to him.

and here is more on mormonism. notice how Jesus is considered inferior and only the Father is called God.

While it is true that Mormonism accepts the Biblical teaching that there are many Gods, it is equally true that it teaches there is but one Godhead which rules and directs the affairs of this earth. It is comprised of God the Father, his son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

In that Godhead, as Jesus clearly and repeatedly taught, God the Father hold ultimate power and control of earthly events. Jesus Christ serves as his executive to carry out his instructions and divine will. This relationship was clearly and repeatedly taught by the Savior during his mortal ministry

 

[BJ_Colbert]

DeFide:

Then you’ve been misled about Mormonism. Notice that mormonfool seems to know about the Mormon belief of eternal progression and “plurality of the gods” or polytheism, a belief in more than one God. In the case of Mormonism, it’s countless gods. May I recommend the book Inside Mormonism, available from Catholic.com

The two websites you listed evidently aren’t giving you the full scoop. Mormonism has a reputation for not being forthcoming with their beliefs not only with outsiders, but with insiders as well.

As usual, Catholics know more about what Mormons believe than Mormons do. I always find that interesting in these forums. I just have to sit back and see what they describe as my beliefs and I just don’t recognize my beliefs at all from the Catholic point of view. After 62 years of being a Mormon, I have to wonder did I miss something in all the classes and teachings I have had since the age of 3 years old? I just never learned the “real Mormon belief” in all those years. Someone sure is hiding it well, as only the Catholics know what we really believe. Mormons really are a secretive bunch, as you say they even hide it from all the members. If that is true how did you find out about it? I guess they only tell the Catholics. Wow! Wait till I tell the others what we really believe, they will probably all join the Catholic Church tomorrow. BJ

 

[DeFide]

As usual, Catholics know more about what Mormons believe than Mormons do. I always find that interesting in these forums. I just have to sit back and see what they describe as my beliefs and I just don’t recognize my beliefs at all from the Catholic point of view. After 62 years of being a Mormon, I have to wonder did I miss something in all the classes and teachings I have had since the age of 3 years old? I just never learned the “real Mormon belief” in all those years. Someone sure is hiding it well, as only the Catholics know what we really believe. Mormons really are a secretive bunch, as you say they even hide it from all the members. If that is true how did you find out about it? I guess they only tell the Catholics. Wow! Wait till I tell the others what we really believe, they will probably all join the Catholic Church tomorrow. BJ

BJ, read the post again. I highlighted that mormonfool (a Mormon) knew of a Mormon teaching that another Mormon poster (Jo’s Dad) didn’t know and claims that he’s never heard of before. So it’s obviously not a belief that’s being projected on Mormonism and it could indicate that some Mormon beliefs are not openly discussed by Mormons.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to single your post out, I really was replying to the whole discussion. Tmaque did a very good job of weeding out the inaccuracies. I was just, as always, surprised at how the Catholics profess to know more about LDS beliefs than we do.
Happy Sabbath, attend your place of worship and remember Jesus’s sacrifice for all of us in your own way. I am off to attend mass with my husband and then off to attend my own church.
BJ

 

[oat_soda]

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to single your post out, I really was replying to the whole discussion. Tmaque did a very good job of weeding out the inaccuracies. I was just, as always, surprised at how the Catholics profess to know more about LDS beliefs than we do.

this is exactly what i’m talking about. all you mormons say is “this is not what we believe” or “in my so and so years i never heard that” but you never follow it up with any substatial proof of what the mormons believe. at best you give us a website.

when i looked into these websites they are totally and intentionally vauge. see my last example where i show that mormons believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are inferior to God the Father, the same as JWs and muslims.

if you don’t like what catholics think about your faith, then please correct us by showing exactly what you believe using an authoritative website or text, like a catholic can do using the cathecism, church fathers, and vatican documents. otherwise, stay on a mormon website where you won’t be challenged.

 

[mormon_fool]

DeFide:

mormon fool:

For argument’s sake, let’s set aside countless gods v. one God as being attributed to “God”=(godhood in general) in Alma 11:28-30, OK? (Not that I agree & it makes that angel look rather deceptive)

Well, I suppose this puts all mormons in the same boat as the angel, because we readily affirm the truth of what is being conveyed in those passages in the Book of Mormon. It makes sense to me and countless other mormons. Note that the Nephite prophet Amulek clarifies his terms in v. 44

Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored

to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

As a popular saying among mormons goes “The members of the Godhead are infinitely more one than they are three.” But since you have asked me to move on I’ll just leave it at that.

What about the second issue of divine immutability versus changeability?

It is definitely an issue to ponder. Not just for mormons but for Christians of all stripes. In order to figure out if something or someone has changed we would need a frame of reference and a way to measure. Have fun with this, think of Einstein’s twin paradox and things like that.

Have a nice day,
fool

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Oat Soda,
I understand your confusion, but some things just can’t be understood fully by only learning from books. It has to be books plus faith and personal understanding.
My husband and I were just discussing what we heard in Mass this morning. It was concerning what Mormons call the Godhead, which is three with one purpose, but distinctly separate entities.
In Mass it was explained that there is only ONE playing the roles of three entities. At one time He is His own father and at another time He is his Son, and still again at other times He is the Holy Spirit, and at the same time He is all of these, but still only One Being. And the priest said even though this is impossible to understand it is the way it is, because we are not supposed to understand, that is why it is called a mystery. So I don’t understand your explanation, no matter how many times you explain it because it is a mystery that I am not ever supposed to understand.
I would much rather believe in God the Father, and in His Son, God the Son, Jesus Christ, who is part of the Godhead and in God the Holy Spirit which is the mediator and messenger for the Godhead. It makes such simple sense and is not a mystery at all.
I’m am sorry I don’t know the books where this is all found the way you do, but I have faith that it is so, because God has born witness to me through prayer and through the Holy Spirit that He is God the Father, and that He has a Son named Jesus, who gave His life, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. I believe those simple words and I believe that God is not a confusing God who wants us to find Him mysterious. He knows my name and he knows your name, and he loves us all the same as you love your children only so much more. It is my belief that this is true, the truth is found by asking God Himself.

I only came to your Catholic forum to find answers for my Catholic husband, who after 65 years as a Catholic did not know what he believed. With your help and mine he is finally getting some answers and clarity in what he is supposed to believe. It has been a bit confusing because one priest in this forum contradicted a tribunal my husband had been sent to for answers and suggested the tribunal should be reported to the Bishop. An old retired priest was sent to our home and he heard my husband’s confession and absolved him, but then when I told my husband what the priest in this forum said, it put him in a depression, because he doubted the old priest. Then today he asked his priest at mass and that priest said ignore the priest on the forum because he didn’t know what he was talking about. They all have different interpretations about how things are supposed to be, and there are priests who are trained in Cannon law who know how to interpret the things that priests don’t know. So anyway, now my husband is a peace again in his mind, and so I guess the only reason I would ever write here again is because I kind of got hooked. I did not realize there was a place where Catholics discussed what Mormons believed and had such a warped understanding, so when I saw that, I just couldn’t help jumping in with my simple beliefs that come from my heart and from studying the Bible, Book of Mormon and other scriptures, as well as listening to my husband and comparing religious beliefs.
I have learned a lot and thank you all very much…BJ

 

[Paul_G]

Well said BJ

your friend

Paul

just so there is no confusion I’m LDS as well

 

[mormon_fool]

For all those who complain that fool doesn’t document enough I have a few items that explain why Jesus is God in mormon belief. I am quoting from people that are well respected writers and/or authorities in the church.

Jesus Is the God of the Whole Earth
The Book of Mormon emphasizes magnificently that Jesus is the God of the whole earth and that he has manifested himself among all nations.
*
Selected Writings of Robert J. Matthews*

The God of the Old Testament
Though, as we have shown, Jesus was a God before he came to earth and even before the earth existed, his complete identity has been unknown, obscured and misunderstood throughout the centuries.
*
Principles and Practices of the Restored Gospel* by Victor L. Ludlow

(John 1:1-2). Therefore, from the outset John identifies Jesus as the Word, says that He was with God in the beginning, and that He was God. And then, as it were, to be sure that although Jesus is God He would not be confused with the Father, he repeated, “The same was in the beginning with God” (John 1:3).

David H. Yarn, Jr. in BYU Studies, vol. 3 (1960-1961)

These three personages then are of equal dignity in the Godhead, according to the teachings of the New Testament, and each is equally divine—equally God. Hence Jesus is God equally with God the Father, and with the Holy Ghost."

Seventy’s Course in Theology, vol. 2 by B. H. Roberts

Nephi had previously declared that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were “one God” (2 Ne. 31:21), but Nephite challengers continued to attack the proposition that Jesus was God, to deny that his Atonement could be efficacious in advance of its occurrence, and to argue that there could not be many Gods who were still one God (e.g., Mosiah 17:8; Alma 11:28).

“Jesus Christ in the Scriptures” in Encyclopedia of Mormonism

Jesus is a God of light and life, not a symbol of death and doubt. He lives, and will save everyone who is willing to serve Him. He is our divine Redeemer and our eternal Creator. He is the resurrection and the life. This is our testimony to the world.

Conference Report, April 1983 by Mark E. Petersen

The logic is not difficult: Jesus is God; Jesus has a body of flesh and bones; therefore, God, in the person of the resurrected Son, has a body of flesh and bones. Since both LDS Christians and orthodox Christians affirm the doctrines of the in- carnation and bodily resurrection of God the Son, then in the person of the Son, God must be understood to have a tangible body.

Are Mormons Christians? by Stephen E. Robinson

By taking upon himself our flesh through birth, Jesus as God united the essence of humanity to the divine nature. Eventually Christ’s divinity overcame the limits of the flesh through resurrection and glorification, transforming and raising his body to the full level of godhood.

Deification, Early Christian in *Encyclopedia of Mormonism *

 

[JessicaCeleste]

Just thought I would add my .02 into this thread. From what I’ve heard, Inside Mormonism has a definite slant to it, and most LDS’s will debunk it as a “Non Faith Promoting” piece of literature.
But, to be honest, I haven’t read it yet.

HOWEVER…I have read “Mormon America” by the Ostlings, many times over, with the dog eared pages and highlighted bits to prove it. It’s almost time for me to get another copy, mine is so ragged. I highly endorse this book, Highly! It’s wonderfully unbiased, very up front and honest, fair and a pleasant read.

lds-mormon.com/mormonamerica.shtml

LoL Okay, shameless plug over.

~Jessica (LDS convert for 3 years, ExMo for 5 years, LDS history/society/theology buff)

tkdnick:

I think any LDS you talk to will tell you that Inside Mormonism is a bad book to read. I have read it and found it to be charitable, and on the whole, accurate. However, I seriously doubt you will get the average LDS to actually read it. There have to be LDS sources that explain the nature of their belief in God, and I have no doubt it would easier to get an LDS to read an LDS book than one that isn’t.

 

[Paul_G]

Hi Jessica, just curious

It is interesting to me that someone in the Catholic Church who believes that theirs is the only true church with a billion + membership would even bother about what we believe with our itty bitty 11 million.

Since as you say that you have been an ex-mo for 5 years – two years longer than you were a member what is still the attraction?

Paul

 

[mormon_fool]

tkdnick:

Thanks!
Or is there maybe a book that does a good job of covering this topic from the LDS side?

There is probably no one good book that covers the entire Godhead in a systematic way. After getting somewhat of a handle on what the LDS scriptures and manuals such as “Gospel Principles” say, the next books that I learned from were “The Articles of Faith” by James E. Talmage and “The Promised Messiah” by Bruce R. McConkie. The former only briefly covers the topic and the latter is mostly focused on the second member of the Godhead. And I can imagine that both can at times be hard on non-mormon ears. Stephen Robinson’s “Are Mormons Christian” and his dialogue with an EV in “How Wide the Divide” is more geared for a general audience but is by no means systematic.

As long as we are recomending books. I will second the motion on both Inside Mormonism and *Mormon America *for my catholic friends. I think both of them can improve understanding of mormonism; but please give mormons a chance to respond to some of their criticisms and correct a few errors now and then.

Later,
fool

 

[JessicaCeleste]

Ah, see, there you’ve made the mistake of assuming that I’m Catholic. I’m not I prefer the term “Soul-Searching Heathen”. Pagan also works

What’s the attraction? A few things pop into my head - the LDS Church was really the first church that I had any first hand experience with. Although it was only a short period, and I eventually left, it did have a decent impact on my life.

I’m also just a big geek when it comes to studying religion. grins Religion fascinates me, the psychology behind it, the mechanics of ritual, the core beliefs…I love learning it all. Mormonism, along with Catholicism and a few other faiths, simply capture my interest.

Hope this helps.

~Jess
Paul G:

Hi Jessica, just curious

It is interesting to me that someone in the Catholic Church who believes that theirs is the only true church with a billion + membership would even bother about what we believe with our itty bitty 11 million.

Since as you say that you have been an ex-mo for 5 years – two years longer than you were a member what is still the attraction?

Paul

 

[DeFide]

Folks, please consider starting a new topic rather than posting off-topic stuff to this thread.

The original questions regarding contradictions in the Mormon beliefs in divine immutability/changeability and divine unity/multiplicity are still open and dangling.

Thank you.

 

[Paul_G]

Your right, Sorry

Paul