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TexanKnight
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And still Janderich avoids the tough questions.
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Janderich
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Hi LivingWaters, For the sake of time I do not think I can adiquately answer all your questions. But perhaps we can take one which is germane to what we have been discussing.
Even Elijah after the Lord performed this great miracle and consumed the offering according to his word, was hunted and chased into the desert. The Lord will not be known by the thunder of his voice or the demands of unbelievers. For they will not acknowledge his ways. But here is how it happens:
A prophet receives revelation from God. He speaks the will of the Lord. Because of the way this happens he is almost never accepted in his time and place. The greater portion of the people reject him because they have setup a hedge. Their false belief will not allow a prophet, or he does not act as they demand, or he calls them to repentance and they refuse to follow.
Even Elijah after the Lord performed this great miracle and consumed the offering according to his word, was hunted and chased into the desert. The Lord will not be known by the thunder of his voice or the demands of unbelievers. For they will not acknowledge his ways. But here is how it happens:
It seems a whisper will not be heard.
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TexanKnight
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glad you are back. Now, could you kindly go back and respond to the questions and issues you have deftly dodged?
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Janderich
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TexanKnight, you and I both know you are not interested in really hearing a response. So there is no point in answering your questions. Perhaps when you come with a sincere question truly seeking, I will answer.
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TexanKnight
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Nice dodge. I am always interested in answers. In my experience, those who answer like you have no answers, and use this as a dodge.
Its cool. I knew you couldn’t answer. No one who really has a leg to stand on would compare an alleged prophet in 1800s USA with a Biblical prophet who lived hundreds of years BC
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lynnanine
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Jumping in here. I’m not quite as knowledgeable as some people posting here, but am I wrong in thinking that Matthew 16:19 (“Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”) easily shows there wasn’t a complete apostasy as the Mormons believe? Because I’d think that for a complete apostasy to happen, that means that the gates of hell would’ve had to prevail against the Church.
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RebeccaJ
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Yes, Mormons ignore scripture that shows the faithfulness of Jesus to His Bride. They ignore Christian history, that shows the Church fulfilling Jesus’ prophecy that people of all tongues and nations would come to believe and be baptized. Yes, Mormons ignore the evidence of Christ, living, in His Church. They ignore the evidence of the Holy Spirit. They must, in order to be a Mormon.
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LivingWaters7
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Thanks. And how do you see the current LDS prophet(s), functionally, in comparison to the Biblical prophets?
Also, something I’ve found interesting is how it seems common for many LDS to say that if the LDS apostles and prophets are receiving profound visions and visitations from Heaven, these are sacred experiences not to be discussed. Do you hold that view? How does that compare with what we see in the Bible, or even with Joseph Smith and his experiences? Are the days gone when LDS prophets talk about the visions they may have had, because it is now said that it’s too sacred to talk about?
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JamesCollins
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The idea that current LDS leaders are receiving visions from God is ridiculous. About all they are is a corporation with a church attached to it. They are more interested in creating malls and real estate investment in downtown Salt Lake City and buying up timberland in Florida than they are in being inspired leaders of a religious body. I think they own something like 1/6 of the private land in Florida at this point and two percent of the total land in Florida.
finance.yahoo.com/news/mormon-church-set-become-floridas-232526398.html
It’s all about money for them.
finance.yahoo.com/news/mormon-church-set-become-floridas-232526398.html
It’s all about money for them.
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TexanKnight
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kinda funny, if you think about it. Because the teachings and “revelations” of the lds church keep changing over time and new “prophets” trump old ones. The lds god keeps changing, apparently. Hard to accept doctrine and teachings that are a continual moving target
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JamesCollins
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I have a distinct feeling the leaders of the Mormon Church are literally a bunch of old men controlled by the corporate leaders in the bureaucracy. The leaders aren’t calling the shots. If a doctrine tends to reduce the amount of money flowing to the bureaucracy it is de-emphasized or tossed out. There is a reason they are de-emphasizing King Follett and similar teachings these days. It hurts the bottom line.
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iepuras
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So, when did LDS teachings regarding the Holy Ghost change? It must have changed in the past year since I stopped attending the LDS church. My entire life I had been taught in pretty much every LDS teaching venue (sacrament meeting, Sunday School, YW, seminary, BYU, Relief Society, etc) that the only people who have the Holy Ghost in their lives are people who are confirmed members of the LDS church. Everyone else gets the “light of Christ”, which is basically one’s conscience and not the same thing as the Holy Ghost. But even then the Mormon Holy Ghost is a rather fickle friend because the Holy Ghost can abandon a faithful LDS member who happens to be out past midnight or go into a bar and drink a Shirley Temple and act as designated driver for friends.
It is a pretty important revelation that the Holy Ghost no longer limits himself to persons who are confirmed LDS but guides “all the family of Adam and Eve” (which I assume means everybody). So, at which General Conference session did Mr. Monson announce this? Is there a proclamation or official declaration that I can read about this doctrinal change?
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iepuras
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Others who are not posting on this thread may be interested in a response. LivingWaters asked some good questions that haven’t been answered as have others. Aren’t members of the LDS church supposed to be bold in standing for truth and righteousness? Alma and Amulek weren’t afraid of the tough questions.
The fact that there have been numerous questions posed in this thread that remain ignored and unanswered by members of the LDS church speaks volumes to those who are simply observing.
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eddie_too
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the GREAT MORMON APOSTASY occurred immediately at the death of Joseph Smith. being as he alone was designated as the true prophet, just as with the apostles, at his death the lds became apostate.
at least that is what i am waiting for some other person to come out of the woods and start teaching.
in fact, the bahai do exactly that. bahaullah, the bahai’s super being, lived after smith. bahaullah taught, just as smith taught, that all of the earlier prophets needed bahaullah to be understood correctly.
bahaullah may not have used the same words as smith, but his meanings were essentially the same.
for bahaullah, as for smith, the message is, believe what i am telling you because i have a special connection to almighty God.
why believe that either smith or bahaullah had a special connection to God? that i cannot explain. i have heard that i should believe because if i seek the truth diligently enough, the answer will be an extreme emotional affirmation of what i have been questioning.
that is pretty much the answer for both the lds and the bahai. of course, that is not the answer for a RC. for a RC, the answer is and will always be that i believe what God has revealed because He has revealed and He can neither deceive nor be deceived.
Jesus is the fullness of God’s revelation to mankind. there is nothing to add to Jesus. i am quite sure Jesus knew enough to prepare us for a great apostasy if that was what was going to occur.
this is why the mormons and bahai do not comprehend the depth of the faith in Jesus Christ that exists in the RCC.
the RC knows that Jesus is God and as a result all of the mysteries, including mankind’s future, of reality. the RC knows that if there were going to be a great apostasy, Jesus would have told His followers about it. it would not have been something that Jesus would have kept from His followers. it would not have been something of which Jesus would have been ignorant.
at least that is what i am waiting for some other person to come out of the woods and start teaching.
in fact, the bahai do exactly that. bahaullah, the bahai’s super being, lived after smith. bahaullah taught, just as smith taught, that all of the earlier prophets needed bahaullah to be understood correctly.
bahaullah may not have used the same words as smith, but his meanings were essentially the same.
for bahaullah, as for smith, the message is, believe what i am telling you because i have a special connection to almighty God.
why believe that either smith or bahaullah had a special connection to God? that i cannot explain. i have heard that i should believe because if i seek the truth diligently enough, the answer will be an extreme emotional affirmation of what i have been questioning.
that is pretty much the answer for both the lds and the bahai. of course, that is not the answer for a RC. for a RC, the answer is and will always be that i believe what God has revealed because He has revealed and He can neither deceive nor be deceived.
Jesus is the fullness of God’s revelation to mankind. there is nothing to add to Jesus. i am quite sure Jesus knew enough to prepare us for a great apostasy if that was what was going to occur.
this is why the mormons and bahai do not comprehend the depth of the faith in Jesus Christ that exists in the RCC.
the RC knows that Jesus is God and as a result all of the mysteries, including mankind’s future, of reality. the RC knows that if there were going to be a great apostasy, Jesus would have told His followers about it. it would not have been something that Jesus would have kept from His followers. it would not have been something of which Jesus would have been ignorant.
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marywarfield
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I believe the Mormon apologists might have been
somewhat unprepared for the knowledge base they
encountered among RCC here.
Sort of like OSAS tends to be appalled when surrounded
by RCC who GASP reads the Bible.
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Tarquin
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And saying that miscegenists should be killed on the spot, and that liars should receive the death penalty, and a few things worse than those. Nothing personal against modern Mormons; just, I think one of their founders was far more violent than anyone has a right to be.
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jadamo
Guest
Why did God instruct Smith to teach polygamy to the people? In D&C 132, God makes it clear that polygamy is a part of the new covenant and is essential for exaltation. In fact, God demands Smiths wife to comply or He will destroy her. How is that merciful and loving? And, in this “revelation”, God reminds Smith that He is not a God of contradiction (8).
lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng
But, in the BOM, God doesn’t like polygamy (Jacob 22-35), He finds the practice abominable, and does not like hearing the mourning of his fair daughters. Yet, this mourning continues with the new law of polygamy, and Brigham Young doesn’t like it, “But I do know that there is no cessation to the everlasting whining of many of the women in this Territory; I am satisfied that this is the case. And if the women will turn from the commandments of God and continue to despise the order of heaven, I will pray that the curse of the Almighty may be close to their heels, and that it may be following them all the day long. And those that enter into it and are faithful, I will promise them that they shall be queens in heaven, and rulers to all eternity.” In this Discourse, given by Young, he threatens the women that if they continue to complain, or be unhappy about having to share their husbands, he will release them all with their children to be on their own and provide for themselves and their children w/o the help of their former husbands. He’s actually quite cruel to the women in this discourse, in my opinion.
utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/jofdvol4p51_57brighambloodatonement.htm
And THEN, we have the Manifesto of 1890, where your “prophet” allowed the US to dictate Gods glory to His people by making polygamy illegal. Woodruff stopped plural marriages in the Church, but did not make it clear if it was revelation or not. Sooooo…where is Gods promised wrath to those who disobey? If it was NOT a revelation from God, then Woodruff, the “prophet”, is leading his people astray by not allowing polygamy and speaking for God when God did not tell him to speak. If it WAS a revelation, then why would God bow to human law and allow the President of the US to tell Him what is lawful and what is not? Where is the might and power of God that He showed to those in the OT when they opposed Him? I don’t see how Divine Providence could make polygamy a part of the new covenant, but then disallow it when it became illegal in the US. I don’t see God in this anywhere.
lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/official-declarations/official-declaration-1-manifesto?lang=eng
The Catholic Church on the other hand, has been persecuted here and there since Christ. It does not bend under pressure to “get with the times”, and continually calls all to repentance and faith in God. Jesus wished for the good news to be preached throughout the world to all tongues and nations, and that is exactly what’s been happening since the time of the Apostles, even if it’s appeared to be less than perfect throughout the centuries. Your church has set up a hedge to Gods Word, and refuse to believe what He spoke. You’re right, people will find God in the still, small voice. They will find Christ Himself in the humble appearance of a tiny wafer of bread. Only the still, small voice of the true gift of faith given to those who seek will find Him there. I know I have.
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jadamo
Guest
And, if you read through this discourse, Young also teaches that Christs sacrifice did NOT atone for all sins…hmmmm.
And this man, Brigham Young, was the second “prophet” of your church, yet he taught things that were rejected by other leaders in the church.
Again, did Joseph Smith test the spirits who appeared to him? What other witnesses are there, beside Cowdery who was later excommunicated, who saw Peter, James and John appear to Smith to give him the priesthood and authority? Do you only have Smiths word for this? How is his word better than the Apostles and early church fathers?
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Janderich
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Miracles occur today but of course they are not accepted by the world; and they never were, and they never will be.
To certain individuals at certain times visions and revelations are discussed. But they are not discussed openly to those who would ridicule and mock. But “dispute not, because ye see not” for a witness comes after faith is proven, not before.
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TexanKnight
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