Mormons and authority

[taylorf]

well…to be honest, the lds god CAN be deceived…just ask Mark Hoffman

Interesting that he told JS about the elaborate plan to use the 116 pages against him but went completely MIA on the Hoffman forgeries.

 

[marywarfield]

:thumbsup:I

There are revelations and visions today as there were of old. But I think sometimes we get a distorted view from scripture because thousands of years pass in one book. Moreover, much scripture is reserved for future generations. Thus we receive the scripture after the prophecy has been given and fulfilled, or read of a vision which no one at the time knew of or that was not understood.

th first and most glaringly obvious problems with
JS apostolic succession is there is NO proof, NO evidence,
NO archeological witness, and absolutely NO DESIRE
to find such to back up his extraordinary revelations.

And unfortunately for JS, his statements concerning
origins: are unproven, and not only that easily DISPROVEN
through very simple historical, archeological and scientific
evidence. Therein lies a huge difference between
Catholic miracles and Mormon.
Not only are Catholic miracles witnessed,upon physical
examination cannot be explained or disproven, but
the effects are proven- to open sight- to scientists,
doctors, physicists, religious, bishops and laity, newspaper
reporters store clerks veterinarians in fact ANYONE.

But with Mormons? There is a complete and total
vacuum.

 

[TexanKnight]

Interesting that he told JS about the elaborate plan to use the 116 pages against him but went completely MIA on the Hoffman forgeries.

yep…and the lds apostles and prophets spent considerable thousands of dollars buying the fakes, believing they were real, to hide them because they hurt the lds church

 

[twopekinguys]

I agree.
All men are given a portion of the Spirit to discern good from evil. By this light we may distinguish the two. Here is the process. When we hear the word of the Lord, or we hear of a vision or revelation we must consider it. If it is good, over time it will enlighten our minds and bring joy to our hearts. Then we will know it is of God. As we act on what we know it becomes a sure knowledge. Many may ridicule such words but what of it? I have given the way to know.

Other ways to learn are useful but they are of men. By such ways distortions may creep in and choke the word.

What, no response for posts 95 and 96? My internet feelings are hurt.

Kind of hard to wiggle past those two isn’t it J?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I agree.
All men are given a portion of the Spirit to discern good from evil. By this light we may distinguish the two. Here is the process. When we hear the word of the Lord, or we hear of a vision or revelation we must consider it. If it is good, over time it will enlighten our minds and bring joy to our hearts. Then we will know it is of God. As we act on what we know it becomes a sure knowledge. Many may ridicule such words but what of it? I have given the way to know.

Other ways to learn are useful but they are of men. By such ways distortions may creep in and choke the word.

Prayer is of course very important in discerning the will of God. But we are not alone. Jesus gave to us His Church, “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15).

Ephesians 2: 19-22

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord; in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

We are held together, through Jesus, and always have been. The temple He builds is not fleeting, lost, and does not require a restoration, as it is HIS. It is His promise that guides His Church into all truth (John 16:12-13).

So we have God’s gift, a pillar of truth, to help and guide us in our journey. As the Church is guided, so are we, by the same Christ, by the same Holy Spirit. We are One Body, in Christ. A pilgrim Church, a pilgrim people, journeying towards the fullness of the Kingdom.

Hope that helps.

 

[TexanKnight]

What, no response for posts 95 and 96? My internet feelings are hurt.

Kind of hard to wiggle past those two isn’t it J?

he refuses to address the hard questions. He has no answers.

 

[Stephen168]

Janderich, and any other LDS participating, I have a few questions if you don’t mind:

1. LDS claim a restoration of “Aaronic Priesthood” and “Melchizedek Priesthood”. Do you believe that the ancient Church of Jesus Christ had these two priesthoods? If so, what is your evidence?

I have asked this question a few times in the past, but have found Mormons unable/unwilling to defend their beliefs on this subject.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I simply mean that I don’t limit my statement to Catholicism. Yes, early on ordinances were changed and false belief crept in.

When you say “early on” how early are you talking about? Because we have actual history of writings even before the Apostle John died which supports Catholic beliefs.

 

[Tarquin]

I have asked this question a few times in the past, but have found Mormons unable/unwilling to defend their beliefs on this subject.

Details on evidence for their restoration would also be interesting. For example, does an unbaptized person have authority to baptize an unbaptized person? Considering the importance of the restoration of these two priesthoods, I should think there would be at least as much details for the restoration of each of them, as there is for, say, the First Vision or the Witnessing of the Book of Mormon by the 15 witnesses. Or were these restorations even more sacred than the First Vision, so sacred in fact that no one talks about them outside of the Temple? I present these as serious questions.

 

[Miriam1947]

Details on evidence for their restoration would also be interesting. For example, does an unbaptized person have authority to baptize an unbaptized person? Considering the importance of the restoration of these two priesthoods, I should think there would be at least as much details for the restoration of each of them, as there is for, say, the First Vision or the Witnessing of the Book of Mormon by the 15 witnesses. Or were these restorations even more sacred than the First Vision, so sacred in fact that no one talks about them outside of the Temple? I present these as serious questions.

 

[jadamo]

Miriam1947:
Weren’t most of the witnesses excommunicated anyway?

 

[eddie_too]

i think the point is that the signatures are forgeries. there were NO WITNESSES.

 

[Stephen168]

Indeed it is, because we believe an apostle is not a bishop or a pope. Apostolic succession vanished from the earth with the deaths of the apostles a long time ago, and was only restored when a resurrected Peter and James along with John, who was translated, placed their hands on **Joseph Smiths head and restored the priesthood. **If this truly happened as I have said, then there really is not point in arguing further.

And a priesthood holder is not an Apostle. In fact, there were no Mormon apostles for five years after Joseph Smith claimed he ‘restored’ the priesthood. And the idea that Apostles were needed as ‘key holders’ was introduced by Brigham Young, as a means to take over the Mormon church. A point of history is that there was never a Melchizedek Priesthood to ‘restore.’ Joseph Smith just made it up.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Weren’t most of the witnesses excommunicated anyway?

And all of the witnesses “testimonies” were written by Joseph Smith and if I remember correctly Oliver Cowdery and that is according to LDS Royal Skousen.

 

[twopekinguys]

Come on back Janderich!!!

We are eagerly awaiting your response(s)

Especially since we know you were online today.

 

[Janderich]

Come on back Janderich!!!

We are eagerly awaiting your response(s)

Especially since we know you were online today.

Hi twopekinguys, ask me a sincere question relating to the topic of this thread and I will discuss it. Please, not one meant to attack, that gets us nowhere.

 

[twopekinguys]

Hi twopekinguys, ask me a sincere question relating to the topic of this thread and I will discuss it. Please, not one meant to attack, that gets us nowhere.

No attack was made, so please don’t make it out to be something it isn’t. The persecution card really doesn’t play well.

I would still like you to address the statement you made, then decided to add a qualifier to it later. That shouldn’t be too difficult should it?

Also, your comment about smith not killing anyone, when it is clearly indicated in your own church’s history, volume 6.

See posts 95 and 96

 

[Janderich]

I would still like you to address the statement you made, then decided to add a qualifier to it later. That shouldn’t be too difficult should it?

Also, your comment about smith not killing anyone, when it is clearly indicated in your own church’s history, volume 6.

See posts 95 and 96

I’m not sure what your gripe is about priesthood. It is always conditioned on the will of the Lord. Would you like to discuss translation or priesthood authority? Please state what you would like to discuss clearly.

No one, including you twopekinguys ever answered my question about Elijah. It is the crux of this whole discussion about prophets. I suspect you will continue to ignore it. But, so that you do not accuse me of not answering you question please provide the page in volume 6 where Elder Reed Blake says Joseph killed two people.

 

[taylorf]

But, so that you do not accuse me of not answering you question please provide the page in volume 6 where Elder Reed Blake says Joseph killed two people.

Don’t know about Blake, but this was from John Taylor…

“I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, ‘Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!’ He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were WOUNDED by these discharges, TWO of whom, I am informed DIED.” (History of the Church, Vol. 7, pp. 100, 102 & 103)

 

[Janderich]

Don’t know about Blake, but this was from John Taylor…

“I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, ‘Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!’ He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were WOUNDED by these discharges, TWO of whom, I am informed DIED.” (History of the Church, Vol. 7, pp. 100, 102 & 103)

Please note the words, “two of whom, I am informed died”. This is not a very creditable statement by any standard. If I was to present this in court it would hold little to no weight.

From accounts it appears that two youth who saw the mob indicated three attackers who were wounded. These three were Wills, Voras, and Gallaher. These three were subsequently indicted. But of course they fled the state because there wounds testified of their involvement. They were never arrested. Instead a farce of a trail was held in which the mob was in the audience and bullied the court.

For anyone interested I recommend an interesting and thorough book, “Carthage Conspiracy” it says,

Wills, Voras, and Gallaher were probably named in the indictment because their wounds, which testimony showed were received at the jail, were irrefutable evidence that they had participated in the mob. They undoubtedly recognized their vulnerability and fled the country. A contemporary witness reported these three as saying that they were the first men at the jail, that one of them shot through the door killing Hyrum, that Joseph wounded all three with his pistol, and that Gallaher shot Joseph as he ran to the window… The citizens of Green Plains were said to have given Gallaher and Voras new suits of clothes for their parts in the killing. (Carthage Conspiracy, The Trial of the Accused Assassins of Joseph Smith, 79)