Mormons and eternal marriage

[PaulDupre]

As to the seperation issue: the tales of Lazarus and the rich man tells us there’s a great gap between heaven and perdition that can’t be crossed. So I wouldn’t expect that even Catholics would expect the people from heaven to co-mingle with the people in perdition. So, the problem of a good woman married to a two-timing man, (considering adultery is a mortal sin) would lead to their eternal separation even if she put up with it in her earthly life. Catholics believe all will be rewarded the same (or punished the same) instead of different degrees of glory, but even you believe there will be a separation.

First, you are wrong about what Catholics believe. We believe what Jesus and the apostles taught as recorded in the bible - that is, that all the saved are admitted to heaven (the one heaven), but rewarded differently according to their works in the flesh. So yes, there are different levels of reward, but only one heaven (in the presence of the one God). You either end up in the presence of God or outside the presence of God.

Secondly, the chasm between heaven and hell is biblical. Separation of the saved into different heavens is not.

The other issue is whether or not people remain married in heaven. We agree they aren’t married in the after life. Again it comes down to the family issue. If you don’t seal the parents to the children and the spouses then do you believe that all family and marriage relationships are dissolved in heaven? Sorry, I just can’t believe it. And I mean from the gut (or heart). I just can’t.

Even though the Mormon church misrepresents Christian doctrine as saying that “all family relationships are dissolved in heaven”, that is not what Christians believe. Of course those who loved us and helped us to salvation in our earthly lives will always be especially precious to us for eternity. But our current marriage and family relationships are but a dim foreshadowing of the relationships we will have with God, in God and through God in heaven. The Mormon/JW/SDA idea that everything in heaven will be just like earth only better does a great disservice to Jesus, who promised through St. Paul that:

No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him - (1 Corinthians 2:9)

Jesus said that He is the vine and we are the branches. Those who belong to Christ are already “sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise” (Eph 1:13) and adopted into the family of God (Eph 1:5). There is no other “sealing” needed. No secret ceremony behind closed doors is required. We who belong to Christ are already an “eternal family”.

God love you,
Paul

 

[Chris-WA]

Chris-WA I do like the argument you’re making, you’re studying the scriptures and sticking pretty close to the original text. I’ve tried to find some sort of authoratative interpretation of that scripture from an LDS prespective and the best I’ve found is at cumorah.com/etexts/jesusthechrist.txt. It’s an entire book in a single web page so do a search on the phrase “SADDUCEES QUESTION ABOUT THE RESURRECTION”.

Although James E. Talmage wrote this book (Jesus the Christ) back in 1915, it’s still published today and is well regarded.

You’re going to have to tell me specifically where in that book you are sending me because I don’t know how to do such a search on a webpage if it doesn’t have its own search function.

 

[Chris-WA]

If you don’t seal the parents to the children and the spouses then do you believe that all family and marriage relationships are dissolved in heaven? Sorry, I just can’t believe it. And I mean from the gut (or heart). I just can’t.

You can’t because you are looking at marriage, and other relationships, from an earthly point of view and projecting that earthly point of view up toward heaven. But ultimately we were not created just for earthly familial relationships, but for heavenly ones. God gave us marriage for the procreation and raising of children. That leads to earthly relationships like mother, father, uncle, aunt, cousin, etc. But the eternal perspective is that all human beings are ultimately God’s children, not mine or yours or anyone else’s, and in heaven that makes us all brothers and sisters because there is really only one true Father. My wife and I didn’t create our children. God did. We participated and cooperated by being open to new life. He gave us several of His children to care for on earth. But we are not raising these children for us–we are raising them for Him. We are not raising these children for our earthly family, but for His heavenly family. Heavenly Father created us all, and to Him we return as sons and daughters. So in heaven our family relationships don’t really dissolve–they become perfected, and we see all humans for what they really are–our brothers and sisters. And that means all humans of every race, language, nation, whatever. So you don’t lose your family–you actually gain a much larger and perfected family. Mormons have this fear that if you don’t get sealed on earth you will somehow lose your family in the afterlife. That is laughable because if we all have the same Heavenly Father, how could we possibly lose our family? In heaven we don’t see ourselves as some huge collection of earthly families. We see ourselves as the one eternal family of God. That is who we truly are–we just have a hard time seeing it here on earth.

 

[PaulDupre]

So in heaven our family relationships don’t really dissolve–they become perfected, and we see all humans for what they really are–our brothers and sisters.

Well said, Chris! That reminds me of this passage from St. Paul:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Cor 13:12)

God love you,
Paul

 

[rmcmullan]

Chris-WA, I don’t know what browser you’re using but Ctrl-F usually serves as the Find key under Windows. I use IE7 and the Ctrl-F will search for a string within a page.

As for your other post, the one wherein you say

We see ourselves as the one eternal family of God. That is who we truly are–we just have a hard time seeing it here on earth.

I’m pretty sure what you’re saying is that all our earthly family relationships are erased. And, as I said before, I simply do not believe that. You do not believe families are eternal or forever. Do I understand you correctly? Isn’t that what you’re saying?

 

[PaulDupre]

He did not say erased - he said perfected.

Like how Jesus did not erase the Law - He perfected it.

Paul

 

[rmcmullan]

You are afraid to say it! You do not believe families are forever!

Well I know this will tick you all off but this is the sort of teaching you can expect from a celibate priesthood. This is why I can’t be a Catholic any more. You start with one departure–a celibate priesthood–and the errors just gets compounded over time. Truly, there needed to be a restoration.

Let’s just leave this as agreeing to disagree, I think there’s no bridging this one!

 

[PaulDupre]

Okay, if Mormonism has poisoned your mind to the point where you read “perfected” but see “erased”, then we cannot discuss any further.

If you ask whether Christians believe that family life in heaven will be limited like family life on earth, then no we do not believe that any more than we believe that God is a mere human being as you do. Family life in heaven will be infinitely better, more expansive and more inclusive.

Good luck and be well,
Paul

 

[zerinus]

Okay, if Mormonism has poisoned your mind to the point where you read “perfected” but see “erased”, then we cannot discuss any further.

If you ask whether Christians believe that family life in heaven will be limited like family life on earth, then no we do not believe that any more than we believe that God is a mere human being as you do. Family life in heaven will be infinitely better, more expansive and more inclusive.

Good luck and be well,
Paul

Family life was intended to be eternal, and last forever, because marriage was intended to be eternal and last for ever. You just don’t know your Bible any. It is your multitude of ignorance that shines through.

When God created Adam and Eve, they were immortal and eternal beings. They were not meant to die. That means that their marriage was also meant to be eternal, and last for ever. Separation came as a result of death, which came because of transgression. But before death came into the world, their marriage was intended to last as long as they would do, which was eternal. This is something that is implied in the words of Jesus in the NT (Matthew 19:3–6).

The purpose of the Atonement was to undo the effect of the Fall, which means to bring men back into the presence of God, and make them eternal and immortal again (see 1 Corinthians 15:13–21). Its purpose was to restore God’s creation to the same state which it was in before the Fall had taken place. That is what the “resurrection” is all about. That means that the marriage of Adam and Eve (which symbolizes that of all mankind) will also have to be restored to the original state which they were intended to be—i.e. eternal.

And if their marriage was intended to be eternal, then their other family relationships were also meant to be eternal. God commanded Adam and Eve to “multiply and replenish the earth” before the Fall had taken place, which means that all of their family relationships were meant to be eternal. All of these woes came because of the Fall. But thanks to the Atonement, all of that will be reversed, and God’s creation will be “restored” to that original pristine condition that it was in before the Fall took place, with all the relationships among men that God had originally intended to be eternal—provided of course all that the right preconditions that God has foreordained are followed.

zerinus

 

[lukewarm]

When God created Adam and Eve, they were immortal and eternal beings. They were not meant to die. That means that their marriage was also meant to be eternal, and last for ever. Separation came as a result of death, which came because of transgression. But before death came into the world, their marriage was intended to last as long as they would do, which was eternal. This is something that is implied in the words of Jesus in the NT (Matthew 19:3–6).

I don’t believe in eternal marraige because realistically it doesn’t make sense, too many people having multiple marriages all around. it doesn’t seem fair to have to choose who you like better as an eternal spouse. But that isn’t a bad point at all about Adam and Eve. But man if I had to put up with my wife for eternity I would consider that hell not Heaven. I’m counting the days until I die where I can get some peace and quiet…

 

[PaulDupre]

Mormon families aren’t forever at all. Only the very few who “make it” to the highest level of the celestial kingdom will have any semblance of family life.

Those who don’t make it to the celestial kingdom don’t even get to visit their celestial relatives and have their families dissolved.

Even those who make it to the celestial kingdom but don’t reach the 3rd celestial level will not be family members, but will be mere servants to the gods and goddesses.

That’s not “eternal family”, that is medieval serfdom on an eternal scale.

Think it through, folks.

God help 'em.
Paul

 

[zerinus]

I don’t believe in eternal marraige because realistically it doesn’t make sense, too many people having multiple marriages all around. it doesn’t seem fair to have to choose who you like better as an eternal spouse.

In LDS theology, a man can have more than one wife, both in this world and in the next, therefore that concern does not apply.

But that isn’t a bad point at all about Adam and Eve.

Thank you at least for acknowledging that!

But man if I had to put up with my wife for eternity I would consider that hell not Heaven. I’m counting the days until I die where I can get some peace and quiet…

Wow! That depends a lot on what kind of man you are, and what kind of woman your wife is I guess! But it does not have to be that way. I know of many people who have been happily married for decades, and are as much in love with each other now as they were when they first got married. If what you say applies to all married couples, how do you explain the words of Jesus in Matthew 19:3–6?

Funny, all Catholics I have met seem to hate women! They hate their wives so much that they would rather see her die an agonizing and miserable death, than to see her have an abortion to save her miserable life! I agree that would be a pretty miserable existence for any man, as well as for his miserable wife!

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Mormon families aren’t forever at all. Only the very few who “make it” to the highest level of the celestial kingdom will have any semblance of family life.

Those who don’t make it to the celestial kingdom don’t even get to visit their celestial relatives and have their families dissolved.

Even those who make it to the celestial kingdom but don’t reach the 3rd celestial level will not be family members, but will be mere servants to the gods and goddesses.

That’s not “eternal family”, that is medieval serfdom on an eternal scale.

Think it through, folks.

God help 'em.
Paul

That is rubbish. Nobody knows how many people will make it to the celestial kingdom and how many don’t. All faithful LDS who are married in the temple and remain faithful to their covenants will make it to the celestial kingdom. There is no reason why they shouldn’t.

Folks, never believe an apostate. It makes no difference whether they are Catholic apostates or Mormon apostates. They will not teach you the truth.

zerinus

 

[lukewarm]

In LDS theology, a man can have more than one wife, both in this world and in the next, therefore that concern does not apply.

Thank you at least for acknowledging that!

Wow! That depends a lot on what kind of man you are, and what kind of woman your wife is I guess! But it does not have to be that way. I know of many people who have been happily married for decades, and are as much in love with each other now as they were when they first got married. If what you say applies to all married couples, how do you explain the words of Jesus in Matthew 19:3–6?

Funny, all Catholics I have met seem to hate women! They hate their wives so much that they would rather see her die an agonizing and miserable death, than to see her have an abortion to save her miserable life! I agree that would be a pretty miserable existence for any man, as well as for his miserable wife!

zerinus

Think what you will but the prospect of your husband/wife being married to you for eternity depresses them too, trust me…

I don’t hate women at all and I love my wife, but a lifetime will be enough. I would love to be friends in Heaven, but having a “marriage” for eternity? No thanks… I sure as heck don’t want to be married and raising kids for eternity… That ain’t Heaven, that’s hell…

 

[zerinus]

Think what you will but the prospect of your husband/wife being married to you for eternity depresses them too, trust me…

I don’t hate women at all and I love my wife, but a lifetime will be enough. I would love to be friends in Heaven, but having a “marriage” for eternity? No thanks… I sure as heck don’t want to be married and raising kids for eternity… That ain’t Heaven, that’s hell…

In that case you must believe that God had created a hell for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, because that is exactly the situation that they were in when they were first created. God created them eternal beings, and then married them for eternity in the Garden of Eden, and commanded them to “multiply and replenish the earth”. And Jesus says that “What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” (Matthew 19:6); which implies that their marriage was for eternity, and was never to be annulled. So if you think that being married to your wife for eternity is “hell,” then you must believe that God created a hell for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden instead of heaven. Is that so?

zerinus

 

[lukewarm]

In that case you must believe that God had created a hell for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, because that is exactly the situation that they were in when they were first created. God created them eternal beings, and then married them for eternity in the Garden of Eden, and commanded them to “multiply and replenish the earth”. And Jesus says that “What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” (Matthew 19:6); which implies that their marriage was for eternity, and was never to be annulled. So if you think that being married to your wife for eternity is “hell,” then you must believe that God created a hell for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden instead of heaven. Is that so?

zerinus

Not even my six year old takes Genesis literally, he can poke holes all over it… Neither do I.

Jesus also clearly said there is no marriage in Heaven when relating a story of a woman who was married (on Earth) to seven different men. Jesus made it abundantly clear that marriage isn’t a part of Heaven in no uncertain terms. The logistics simply don’t work. In Mormonism a man can have multiple wives but not vice versa. So if a Mormon woman marries a man and is seeled to him the Temple and the husband dies at 23 years old. Then the Mormon widow remarries (for time only) and they live with each other until their golden years, come Heaven she’s with the husband she was married to for less than a year for eternity while her life long partner is what? Sealed to someone else? Or the woman can become “unsealed” to her first husband who died (what happens to him, he tries to call his wife “beyond the vail” and she’s like “sorry Jim I’ll be spending eternity with Jack, I was unsealed to you”…

It makes no sense at all really. The only way it could work if Heaven is totally different and marriage has no part in it.

 

[zerinus]

Not even my six year old takes Genesis literally… Neither do I…

Interesting. Which other part of the Bible don’t you take literally? And what about Matthew 19:3–6? Don’t you take that literally too?

zerinus

 

[lukewarm]

Interesting. Which other part of the Bible don’t you take literally? And what about Matthew 19:3–6? Don’t you take that literally too?

zerinus

“God has joined together, no human being must separate.”

Human being seperate, that’s really the key. Obviously Jesus is discussion marriage while on Earth since human beings can’t very well try to seperate anything outside this life can they?

There’s plenty in the Bible I don’t take literally, I don’t believe Lot’s wife turned into a pillar of salt, I don’t believe in giants, I don’t believe in people living in a whales belly. There’s plenty especially in Genesis that simply can’t be taken literally without lying to yourself.

On the same token why do you not believe Jesus when he says there will be no marriage in Heaven while relating the story of a woman who married seven men while on Earth?

 

[zerinus]

Jesus also clearly said there is no marriage in Heaven when relating a story of a woman who was married (on Earth) to seven different men. Jesus made it abundantly clear that marriage isn’t a part of Heaven in no uncertain terms.

We think that that scripture is not correctly understood. It refers to those who are only married by a civil marriage for time only. It does not apply to those who are married by proper priesthood authority for eternity.

The logistics simply don’t work. In Mormonism a man can have multiple wives but not vice versa. So if a Mormon woman marries a man and is seeled to him the Temple and the husband dies at 23 years old. Then the Mormon widow remarries (for time only) and they live with each other until their golden years, come Heaven she’s with the husband she was married to for less than a year for eternity while her life long partner is what? Sealed to someone else? Or the woman can become “unsealed” to her first husband who died (what happens to him, he tries to call his wife “beyond the vail” and she’s like “sorry Jim I’ll be spending eternity with Jack, I was unsealed to you”…

It makes no sense at all really. The only way it could work if Heaven is totally different and marriage has no part in it.

The “logistics” of it is our problem, not yours. We think that we have worked out the “logistics” of it, and it does not present to us the problem to us that you describe. That is only in your imagination, not ours.

zerinus

 

[lukewarm]

We think that that scripture is not correctly understood. It refers to those who are only married by a civil marriage for time only. It does not apply to those who are married by proper priesthood authority for eternity.

So you invented something out of the blue then? Just say that then… I don’t know Jesus direct words seem very clear to me.

The “logistics” of it is our problem, not yours. We think that we have worked out the “logistics” of it, and it does not present to us the problem to us that you describe. That is only in your imagination, not ours.

zerinus

Yeah I’m sure NO Mormon has ever agaonized at the idea of thier spouse “for time only” going off into eternity with another man or woman. I’m sure it’s solely in “my imagination”… If you seriously believe that, then you’re just a fanatic and there’s no reasoning with you.