Mormons and the 12 (or 15?) Apostles

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Yes, thanks, I’ve read that study. Very impressive work.

We should discuss the changes from the Book of Commandments to the Doctrine and Covenants. In a BofC revelation, Joseph is told that he will be given no other gift but to translate the Book of Mormon, and Joseph is cautioned not to pretend to any other gifts, for none will be given to him. Apparently Sidney was dominant at this time.

By contrast, when Joseph revised that revelation years later (after Sidney was lone gone) for publication in the D&C, it suddenly said that Joseph should not pretend to any other gifts but translating the BofM until after the BofM translation is completed. Then he would be given many gifts.

Joseph re-wrote many of his revelations to change or, frequently, to completely reverse the meaning of the original revelation.

In Mormonism, truth changes often.

Paul
Sidney actually helped Joseph revise the early revelations found in the original Book of Commandments including the part about Joseph not receiving any other gifts.

The most obvious change in doctrine in Mormonism was the change from believing in a very orthodox God in the Book of Mormon to the belief in multiple gods in the late 1830s. The Book of Mormon can be interpreted as either Trinitarian or Modalistic, but can’t be seen to endorse more than one God. This is also true of the early Doctrine and Covenants.

Another doctrine which was popular in the mid-1800s, but fell out of favor was the Adam-God doctrine espoused by Brigham Young. Mormons will deny that Brigham ever taught Adam-God, but it is pretty obvious he did.

In fact a number of teachings of Brigham Young have been disavowed by Mormons. This is an interesting read:

home.teleport.com/~packham/byoung.htm
 
I think you’re entitled to our own opinion, Paul, but not necessarily your own facts. The revelations were edited after the 1832 Book of Commandments for the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. However, Sidney Rigdon was a member of the First Presidency until Joseph Smith died, (1844) so it could hardly be true that Joseph Smith re-wrote the revelations after Rigdon was “long gone” could it? Additionally, the text of the revelations of the D&C of today (except for additional sections added after Joseph Smith’s death) is the same as the text of the 1835 edition.

Perhaps you could give an example of truth changing in Mormonism? Since you say it changes often, I’d like an example. Just so we’re clear, the fact that my grandfather was a polygamist and I am not isn’t an example of a change of “truth” any more than the example of Jesus telling His disciples to go out and preach and not to preach to the Samaritans and later modifying that command is a change of “truth;” or do you think it is?

Alma
Rigdon and smith had a serious falling out just like Smith and William Law. The Lectures on faith used to be in the D&C now they are not. (although if you read your D&C intro you will see them referred to( that was very siginificant since Lecture 5 claimed that there were only two members of the godhead, father and son with the holy ghost being their shared mind. I would also think the original section 101 very different in meaning than current 132. 132 says polygamy is great when done properly. 101 in the original said it’s a crime and LDS don’t do it. if we go into more general areas then we can talk Brigham Young vs. Gordon B.Hinkley. There are some publicly admitted to differences of doctrine between those two.
 
Rigdon and smith had a serious falling out just like Smith and William Law. The Lectures on faith used to be in the D&C now they are not. (although if you read your D&C intro you will see them referred to( that was very siginificant since Lecture 5 claimed that there were only two members of the godhead, father and son with the holy ghost being their shared mind. I would also think the original section 101 very different in meaning than current 132. 132 says polygamy is great when done properly. 101 in the original said it’s a crime and LDS don’t do it. if we go into more general areas then we can talk Brigham Young vs. Gordon B.Hinkley. There are some publicly admitted to differences of doctrine between those two.
The lectures on faith were never canonized and were always recognized as “lectures” rather than revelations. PaulDupre claimed that Joseph Smith revised section 5 (then “chapter 2”) after Rigdon was “lone gone.” That simply isn’t true. The editorial change was made in the Evening and Morning Star published in Kirtland by Oliver Cowdery. Rigdon’s “falling out” didn’t occur for another 11 years and 8 years after the change was published in Kirtland’s 1835 D&C. Section 101 wasn’t a revelation either–it was an article on marriage written by Oliver Cowdery. All this, however, is just a red herring reply to my challenge of Paul to show where “truth” in Mormonism has changed. Even section 101 only calls “fornication” a crime–not polygamy. Just look at the grammar. Cowdery was using legalese to obfuscate.

I’d be thrilled to discuss the alleged differences between Young’s and Hinckley’s theology.

Alma
 
I’d be thrilled to discuss the alleged differences between Young’s and Hinckley’s theology.

Alma
So does Hinckley believe Brigham Young’s Adam-God theory or his theory on blood atonement?
 
My friend, I am not here to bury my head in the sand along side you to carry on the dialog of the deaf. The questions you are raising have already been discussed by me at length in many posts in these threads:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=115490

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=111484

I don’t see the need to rehash the same things over and over again.

zerinus
I started this thread as a result of a conversation I recently had with some LDS folks. According to Zerinus, he covered this topic at length in the above threads and any further discussion would constitute “burying my head in the sand” and “rehashing the same things over and over again.” I guess Zerinus considers his posts to be authoritative and the final word on all subjects. Surely no one else would have anything else of value to add to the discussion.

It took me some time but I waded through all the posts in the Apostacy thread and there are still questions left unanswered on this thread’s topic. Do LDS consider St. Paul to be a member of the Twelve Apostles? If not, where does he fit in?
 
It took me some time but I waded through all the posts in the Apostacy thread and there are still questions left unanswered on this thread’s topic. Do LDS consider St. Paul to be a member of the Twelve Apostles? If not, where does he fit in?
Paul was a member of the Twelve Apostles.

zerinus
 
Because we beleive that the Twelve form a quorum whose number is fixed at twelve. Paul was an Apostle, therefore he was one of the Twelve.

zerinus
So you think Christ chose Paul to replace one of the others. Any idea who Paul replaced? You don’t think that Paul was an Apostle at the same time the other twelve were still alive?
 
So you think Christ chose Paul to replace one of the others. Any idea who Paul replaced?
Probably James, who was put to death by Herod: “And he killed James the brother of John with the sword” (Acts 12:2).
You don’t think that Paul was an Apostle at the same time the other twelve were still alive?
The possibility exists, but is highly unlikely. He could be an Apostle without being a member of the quorum of the Twelve; but that would be an extremely rare and unlikey event.

zerinus
 
Probably James, who was put to death by Herod: “And he killed James the brother of John with the sword” (Acts 12:2).
Wasn’t Paul an apostle in Acts long before James was killed?
The possibility exists, but is highly unlikely. He could be an Apostle without being a member of the quorum of the Twelve; but that would be an extremely rare and unlikey event.
Why is it so unlikely? Don’t you think Paul would have told us in one of his many letters that he replaced one of the others? That would have further demonstrated his claim to the office of apostle. But Paul never says he replaced one of the twelve, nor does he ever claim to be one of the twelve. What I’m saying is that Paul was an apostle, but not one of the twelve.
 
Wasn’t Paul an apostle in Acts long before James was killed?
I didn’t think so. James was put to death very early on, before Paul’s ministry as an Apostle began.
Why is it so unlikely? Don’t you think Paul would have told us in one of his many letters that he replaced one of the others? That would have further demonstrated his claim to the office of apostle. But Paul never says he replaced one of the twelve, nor does he ever claim to be one of the twelve.
He didn’t “replace” anybody. A vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve arose, and he was ordained to fill that vacancy. There was no need for him to mention in his epistles whom he had “replaced”. He does mention emphatically in all of his epistles that he speaks with the authority of Apostleship, and that is what counts.
What I’m saying is that Paul was an apostle, but not one of the twelve.
I am inclined to disagree. I believe circumstancial evidence from his epistles confirms him as one of the Twelve.

zerinus
 
He didn’t “replace” anybody. A vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve arose, and he was ordained to fill that vacancy.
I’m not sure why you have a problem with the word “replace.” If you believe Paul was one of the 12, than you have to believe that he was chosen/ordained/selected to “replace” one of the original 12. Substitute the word “succeed” if you want. It means the same thing.
There was no need for him to mention in his epistles whom he had “replaced”. He does mention emphatically in all of his epistles that he speaks with the authority of Apostleship, and that is what counts.
I’ll tell you why I think you error in this assumption. The author of Acts obviously thought it important enough to include the story of Matthias being chosen to succeed Judas. So we can safely say that Matthias was one of the 12 Apostles. Being that Paul was a contemporary of the original 12 Apostles, you should find it odd that this same author does not make any mention of Paul succeeding one of the 12 as Matthias did. Paul is selected in an entirely different manner. Though we know Paul was an apostle, neither Paul, nor Peter, nor anyone else ever calls Paul “one of the 12.” So the circumstantial evidence seems to suggest the exact opposite of what you said. It suggests that Paul was an apostle, but not one of the 12.
 
I’m not sure why you have a problem with the word “replace.” If you believe Paul was one of the 12, than you have to believe that he was chosen/ordained/selected to “replace” one of the original 12. Substitute the word “succeed” if you want. It means the same thing.
I didn’t like the word “replace” because when an Apostle dies his priesthood and Apostleship are not lost. He remains a priest and an Apostle forever. But he leaves a vacancy behind on earth that is filled by someone else.
I’ll tell you why I think you error in this assumption. The author of Acts obviously thought it important enough to include the story of Matthias being chosen to succeed Judas. So we can safely say that Matthias was one of the 12 Apostles. Being that Paul was a contemporary of the original 12 Apostles, you should find it odd that this same author does not make any mention of Paul succeeding one of the 12 as Matthias did.
The story of Judas and Matthias is a special case. Judas had known Jesus personally, and been directly called by Him, and then turned traitor, and died in his sin. His story was infamous enough to be told. Matthias was also a special case, partly because he filled a vacancy left by such an infamous Apostle, and partly because he was the first to fill such a vacancy, and he sets a precedent. Therefore his story needed to be told. The more relevant question that you need to ask is, Why was it necessary to fill a vacancy in the Twelve at all? Why not leave it at 11, or 9; or even call 25 Apostles so you have more people to go and preach the gospel? Why just make it up to 12? That is the real question you need to ask yourself.
Paul is selected in an entirely different manner. Though we know Paul was an apostle, neither Paul, nor Peter, nor anyone else ever calls Paul “one of the 12.” So the circumstantial evidence seems to suggest the exact opposite of what you said. It suggests that Paul was an apostle, but not one of the 12.
I agree that the circumstances of Paul’s ordination were different. Paul was not called or recruited, nor instructed by the other Apostles. His calling, as well as training and instruction came directly from the Lord Himself. He tells his own story as follows:

Galatians 1:

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

His conversion, from being persecutor to becoming preacher, had been so dramatic that after the experience he did not hang around to chat with other people! He chose to go to the desert of Arabia to commune with God! And there he received his first training and instruction by revelation from the Lord. But that does not mean that he could not have been ordained to fill a vacancy in the original Twelve. The fact that the Twelve had to be kept at twelve suggests that he was. Besides Paul, how many other people do you know who were designated Apostles but were not one of the Twelve? If it didn’t make any difference how many of them there were, why not ordain 60 Apostles and send them to preach the gospel, instead of 12?

zerinus
 
But that does not mean that he could not have been ordained to fill a vacancy in the original Twelve. The fact that the Twelve had to be kept at twelve suggests that he was. Besides Paul, how many other people do you know who were designated Apostles but were not one of the Twelve? If it didn’t make any difference how many of them there were, why not ordain 60 Apostles and send them to preach the gospel, instead of 12?
But here is the problem–it’s not fact that the twelve had to be kept at twelve. You are assuming this only because the LDS church has the Quorum of the 12, and therefore you think the early church must also have had the same perpetual organization. You are retroactively applying the structure of the present-day Mormon church to the early church, rather than letting the biblical and historical evidence speak for itself. If taken on their own merits, one cannot conclude that Paul was a successor to one of the 12 Apostles. If he had been, the writer of Acts would have told us so. And Paul himself probably would have mentioned it in one of his many letters. Their is no indication of that anywhere in scripture or in the historical writings of the early church. He was chosen in a different manner for a special mission–to preach the gospel to the Gentiles.

Here is the bottom line. Surely if the 12 Apostles knew that they were supposed to perpetuate their organization, they would have done it! They would have found a way, and they would have said so in scripture. They would have at least told us in their writings that they tried to appoint new Apostles, but couldn’t because of the persecutions. Their entire reason for existence was to grow the church. If appointing new Apostles as successors was necessary for the church to continue, then they would have done it, and we would have a record of it! What do we have a record of? We have biblical, and outside historical records of, the Apostles appointing bishops as overseers of the church. This is how they ensured authority was passed on. This is how they perpetuated the church. They did their job just as Christ told them to. This is the belief of the church from the very beginning. The very earliest ECF writings confirm this method of succession.

This is the one that always gets me–when the Mormon church claims that Christ took the keys away from the early church. What does that mean? What record do we have of Christ taking away the keys? Did Christ tell anybody? No. Did he tell the church, his own bride, that he was removing the keys? No. Do we have any recorded revelation or historical writing that he did so? No. Of course we don’t, because Christ never took away anything. Had Christ taken away the keys, somebody somewhere would have put ink to paper and told us about it. This would have been too monumental an event to just pass by without anybody noticing. Quite the opposite happened. Christ built up his church and gave it the power to survive any onslaught from without or within, because the church is his own spotless bride for whom he willingly died.
 
But here is the problem–it’s not fact that the twelve had to be kept at twelve. You are assuming this only because the LDS church has the Quorum of the 12, and therefore you think the early church must also have had the same perpetual organization. You are retroactively applying the structure of the present-day Mormon church to the early church, rather than letting the biblical and historical evidence speak for itself. If taken on their own merits, one cannot conclude that Paul was a successor to one of the 12 Apostles. If he had been, the writer of Acts would have told us so. And Paul himself probably would have mentioned it in one of his many letters. Their is no indication of that anywhere in scripture or in the historical writings of the early church. He was chosen in a different manner for a special mission–to preach the gospel to the Gentiles.

Here is the bottom line. Surely if the 12 Apostles knew that they were supposed to perpetuate their organization, they would have done it! They would have found a way, and they would have said so in scripture. They would have at least told us in their writings that they tried to appoint new Apostles, but couldn’t because of the persecutions. Their entire reason for existence was to grow the church. If appointing new Apostles as successors was necessary for the church to continue, then they would have done it, and we would have a record of it! What do we have a record of? We have biblical, and outside historical records of, the Apostles appointing bishops as overseers of the church. This is how they ensured authority was passed on. This is how they perpetuated the church. They did their job just as Christ told them to. This is the belief of the church from the very beginning. The very earliest ECF writings confirm this method of succession.

This is the one that always gets me–when the Mormon church claims that Christ took the keys away from the early church. What does that mean? What record do we have of Christ taking away the keys? Did Christ tell anybody? No. Did he tell the church, his own bride, that he was removing the keys? No. Do we have any recorded revelation or historical writing that he did so? No. Of course we don’t, because Christ never took away anything. Had Christ taken away the keys, somebody somewhere would have put ink to paper and told us about it. This would have been too monumental an event to just pass by without anybody noticing. Quite the opposite happened. Christ built up his church and gave it the power to survive any onslaught from without or within, because the church is his own spotless bride for whom he willingly died.
I suppose all a Mormon has to do is recite 1 Nephi chapters 12-14 which predicts the apostasy to show you that Christ supposedly said the keys would be taken away. So if you believe in the Book of Mormon you believe in the apostasy. Of course they have to give you a good reason to believe in the Book of Mormon.
 
But here is the problem–it’s not fact that the twelve had to be kept at twelve. You are assuming this only because the LDS church has the Quorum of the 12, and therefore you think the early church must also have had the same perpetual organization. You are retroactively applying the structure of the present-day Mormon church to the early church, rather than letting the biblical and historical evidence speak for itself. If taken on their own merits, one cannot conclude that Paul was a successor to one of the 12 Apostles. If he had been, the writer of Acts would have told us so. And Paul himself probably would have mentioned it in one of his many letters. Their is no indication of that anywhere in scripture or in the historical writings of the early church. He was chosen in a different manner for a special mission–to preach the gospel to the Gentiles.

Here is the bottom line. Surely if the 12 Apostles knew that they were supposed to perpetuate their organization, they would have done it! They would have found a way, and they would have said so in scripture. They would have at least told us in their writings that they tried to appoint new Apostles, but couldn’t because of the persecutions. Their entire reason for existence was to grow the church. If appointing new Apostles as successors was necessary for the church to continue, then they would have done it, and we would have a record of it! What do we have a record of? We have biblical, and outside historical records of, the Apostles appointing bishops as overseers of the church. This is how they ensured authority was passed on. This is how they perpetuated the church. They did their job just as Christ told them to. This is the belief of the church from the very beginning. The very earliest ECF writings confirm this method of succession.

This is the one that always gets me–when the Mormon church claims that Christ took the keys away from the early church. What does that mean? What record do we have of Christ taking away the keys? Did Christ tell anybody? No. Did he tell the church, his own bride, that he was removing the keys? No. Do we have any recorded revelation or historical writing that he did so? No. Of course we don’t, because Christ never took away anything. Had Christ taken away the keys, somebody somewhere would have put ink to paper and told us about it. This would have been too monumental an event to just pass by without anybody noticing. Quite the opposite happened. Christ built up his church and gave it the power to survive any onslaught from without or within, because the church is his own spotless bride for whom he willingly died.
You are entitled to your views on that; but I respectfully disagree. I believe I have already said all that I need to say on that. There is no need to say any more.

zerinus
 
and we still have no answer to the fact that the LDs today have 15 Apostles.
 
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