Mormons and the Bible

[Snow]

The simple fact is that there are a lot of ideas about what the Bible implies about the trinitarian nature of God.

But amid all the differing opinions and beliefs, the Church made an authoritative statement, defining the Trinity. Once again it comes down to authority… You will not find speciffic passages in the Bible which reveal the true understanding of the trinity…it is open to interpretation. That is why we trust the church’s interpretation. We trust it because we have the promise of the Holy Spirit. When the church makes a statement on such things, it is not just stating “an interpretation.” It is stating THE TRUTH on the matter, no matter how anybody else wants to interpret it.

This is why the church is so important to us, and why it is such a blessing from God

Thank you Ashley,

Can you cite the specific verses in the Bible, that when properly interpreted, indicate homoousis?

 

[mfbukowski]

Catholics believe in revelation. Many of us experience it often. What we don’t believe in (unlike Mormons) is the revelation of novel doctrines. We believe that all doctrine was finally revealed by and through Jesus. The doctrine revealed by and through Jesus was reported to us by the apostles and handed down to us as the Deposit of Faith (scripture and sacred tradition).

Continuing revelation to the Church and its members helps us to more fully understand what Jesus already fulfilled and revealed, and helps us to apply those truths to our current time and place.

In this way, Catholic doctrine “develops” but never changes, as Cardinal Newman said.

You know, mf, we’ve explained this to you many, many times before but you refuse to absorb it. Why is that?

Because development is change. It is an absurd use of language to say that something develops but does not change. You use the organic model. " I am the same person I was at age 1 – I have grown but not changed"

We are talking about propositions here, and their truth. Not people or plants. The identiy of an individual is not the same as doctrine.

How can the pope speak ex cathedra with infallibility if it is not new doctrine?

Why have the doctrine of infallibility if it is impossible to use?

The position is contradictory.

 

[RebeccaJ]

OK so rebecca says you do believe in revelation. Which is it?

We are in agreement, actually. Catholic doctrine defines two type of revelation. One, you will often see spelled with a capital ‘R’, as is done in the Catechism. This type of Revelation is associated to the teachings of Jesus, as recorded by the Apostles in the NT. This Revelation is perfect, and has no need to be added to or modified. Jesus Christ Himself is this perfect Revelation. And all that He taught and Revealed is the foundation of the Catholic churches, East and West, Orthodox and Latin. This is what we mean by, the Catholic church is apostolic. And what we mean by there is one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. This is the one holy church that all Christians belong to.

The other form of revelation is distinguished from Revelation. These are the revelations of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit guides individuals, and the Church that is led by Jesus Christ. Bishops are given guidance for their individual flocks (diocese) and in communion with each other for the entire Church.

This is why we say the pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra, or in the Chair of Peter. It is not the pope himself that is infallible. He is human like the rest of us, and goes to confession often. The infallibility is that of the Holy Spirit.

This type of revelation is not Revelation. What Christ established cannot be changed, modified or removed. And this is what the Catholic Church has protected against since the time of the Apostles. Innovations, errors, heresies, call them any of these it is the same thing. A deviation from the Perfect Revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[rinnie]

I have no need to prove any claim. Religion is not a matter of proof, it is a matter of faith. The Catholic Church or Baptist, Methodist Church or The Church of Jesus Christ, etc have no proof that God believes as they do, and the onus is no more on one of them than on one of the other. It is all taken on faith

I do agree that Religion is based on faith. But we do have proof, as far as the teachings of Christ. We call it the bible. How could you say that the RCC has no proof that God believes as they do when the follow the word of God. If the bible is not the word of God could you tell me who’s word it is. I can not give you visual proof nor will God. you either have faith or you do not. God tells you himself do not test him! But how can you say that the bible is not the teachings of the RCC?

 

[rinnie]

As far as the Trinity the proof is in the bible. You cannot go through the Son without Going through the Father. What does that tell you… 3 person’s One In Being! Just Like Jesus is inseparable from his church you cannot separate the Trinity.

 

[dr23flavors]

How was the novel concept of racial purity and polygamy introduced?

 

[Snow]

I do agree that Religion is based on faith. But we do have proof, as far as the teachings of Christ. We call it the bible. How could you say that the RCC has no proof that God believes as they do when the follow the word of God. If the bible is not the word of God could you tell me who’s word it is. I can not give you visual proof nor will God. you either have faith or you do not. God tells you himself do not test him! But how can you say that the bible is not the teachings of the RCC?

Oh brother.

1. The Bible was written by men. God has never publicly said that he agrees with it. If I am wrong, please quote what God said, when He said it, and what proof there is that God actually said it.
2. Whether the Roman Catholic Church follows the Bible correctly is a matter of opinion. A very large percentage of the world’s Christians would say that it does not on many points.
3. The RCC has beliefs and practices that are not found in the Bible.
4. Even when RCC beliefs are linked to the scriptures, the issue becomes one of interpretation.

 

[Snow]

As far as the Trinity the proof is in the bible. You cannot go through the Son without Going through the Father. What does that tell you… 3 person’s One In Being! Just Like Jesus is inseparable from his church you cannot separate the Trinity.

I know it is pointless to ask, but I’ll ask anyway. One of the key concepts of the Trinity is that of consubstantiality.

Were you aware of that?

If proof of the Trinity is in the Bible as you claim, please cite the specific verses that demonstrate consubstantiality,

 

[rinnie]

Oh brother.

1. The Bible was written by men. God has never publicly said that he agrees with it. If I am wrong, please quote what God said, when He said it, and what proof there is that God actually said it.
2. Whether the Roman Catholic Church follows the Bible correctly is a matter of opinion. A very large percentage of the world’s Christians would say that it does not on many points.
3. The RCC has beliefs and practices that are not found in the Bible.
4. Even when RCC beliefs are linked to the scriptures, the issue becomes one of interpretation.

Oh Sister, You said that God never publicly said that he agrees with it. What planet are you from. Then why did he send the Apostles out to start a church for? I believe his words were Go make disciples of all Nations. Show me one thing that the RCC does that goes against the bible. Please just one thing in the bible that the RCC disagrees with. Please use the Catholic Bible. THe first bible written Please. This I cant wait to hear.

 

[rinnie]

Yes of course the bible was written by man but the words were inspired by Jesus Christ. Or do you disagree with this also. I also have another question Is it true that Your Leader Joseph had many wifes? I would not want to be like you and accuse or assume the way you do with my church, So I am asking you point blank is what I read true, that he had many wives?

 

[dr23flavors]

Where is racial purity and polygamy in the Bible? Why is it that Catholic put together the Bible buy you still feel that it is real?

 

[Snow]

Oh Sister, You said that God never publicly said that he agrees with it. What planet are you from. Then why did he send the Apostles out to start a church for? I believe his words were Go make disciples of all Nations.

I repeat (which point you already ignored): The Bible was written by men. God has never publicly said that he agrees with it. If I am wrong, please quote what God said, when He said it, and what proof there is that God actually said it.

Show me one thing that the RCC does that goes against the bible.

I didn’t say that the Catholic Church teaches things that go against the Bible. Please don’t make things up about what I said.

Please just one thing in the bible that the RCC disagrees with.

Nor did I say that the Catholic Church disagrees with the Bible. Please don’t make things up.

Please use the Catholic Bible. THe first bible written Please. This I cant wait to hear.

The Catholic Bible? The first one written?

Do you mean Septuagint? The Vulgate?

The Catholic Church no longer uses them commonly, do they?

 

[rinnie]

To say that the bible was written by men, as I can see you love to play on words. So let me put it point blank, Yes men wrote the Words but they were spoken by Christ. They were his words, his deeds, his teachings. And yes the first bible that was written was called the Catholic Bible, before Luther tooks books out. Which I am sure you know all about KJV.

Now what is your response to my question about your Religion, is it not permitted to have more than one wife, and did your leader not indeed practice this. And does your Religion deny the Bible or go by the Bible, Yes or No.

 

[Snow]

Where is racial purity and polygamy in the Bible?

Racial purity? I didn’t know that was in the Bible.

Did you mean religious purity? You can check Exodus 34 about inter-religious marriage.

As to polygamy… I guess you could try Genesis 4, 2 Samuel 12:18, 1 Kings 11:3.

Why is it that Catholic put together the Bible buy you still feel that it is real?

Personally, I believe that the Bible is real because I can see it and hold it and read it and understand it. I know that there is a philosophical school of thought that life is an illusion and exist only in our non-physical imagination - true that it has never been disproven - but I don’t believe it.

By the way… the Catholic’s didn’t put together the Bible. The Torah and Old Testament existed long before the Catholic Church and more of the world’s Christian denominations do not accept the RCC canon and the correct canon.

 

[rinnie]

there is a question on this site that says three vulgate Bible & Segt. questions, You can go there and it will explain it better. It has links you can refer to. I don’t know how to do that or I would have shown the links. This way is much quicker.

 

[rinnie]

Racial purity? I didn’t know that was in the Bible.

Did you mean religious purity? You can check Exodus 34 about inter-religious marriage.

As to polygamy… I guess you could try Genesis 4, 2 Samuel 12:18, 1 Kings 11:3.

Personally, I believe that the Bible is real because I can see it and hold it and read it and understand it. I know that there is a philosophical school of thought that life is an illusion and exist only in our non-physical imagination - true that it has never been disproven - but I don’t believe it.

By the way… the Catholic’s didn’t put together the Bible. The Torah and Old Testament existed long before the Catholic Church and more of the world’s Christian denominations do not accept the RCC canon and the correct canon.

You are saying the Catholic Church did not put together the Bible? Then could you please tell me who did?

 

[Snow]

To say that the bible was written by men, as I can see you love to play on words. So let me put it point blank, Yes men wrote the Words but they were spoken by Christ. They were his words, his deeds, his teachings.

Why do you avoid my question? The Bible was written by men. God has never publicly said that he agrees with it. If I am wrong, please quote what God said, when He said it, and what proof there is that God actually said it.

And yes the first bible that was written was called the Catholic Bible, before Luther tooks books out. Which I am sure you know all about KJV.

I’m sorry. That’s untrue. The first Bible is called the Torah and it came into existence centuries before there was a Catholic Church.

If by Bible you mean the OT and NT together translated into Latin, the first such was not called The Catholic Bible. Early versions or pieces of it were called Vetus Latina, or Old Latin Bible. Then Jerome compiled and translated into it all into Latin in the 5th century. It was promulgated as the official Catholic version of the Bible and was know as the versio vulgata, or Vulgate.

Now if you think that Luther’s Bible was wrong, perhaps you can tell me what God thinks about it. It’s not that I don’t enjoy hearing your opinion, but wouldn’t you agree that God’s opinion would be more important?

Now what is your response to my question about your Religion, is it not permitted to have more than one wife, and did your leader not indeed practice this.

I am not sure what this has to do with a Bible discussion but:

No, and yes; respectively.

And does your Religion deny the Bible or go by the Bible, Yes or No.

No, and yes; respectively.

 

[dr23flavors]

Your church taught racial purity in its begiinigs. Polygamy is not acceptable in New Testament teachings but your dear leader endorsed it and blackmailed little girls to have sex with him.

 

[Snow]

You are saying the Catholic Church did not put together the Bible?

For the most part - no, they did not.

Then could you please tell me who did?

The Petateuch was accepted as Law from as early as 1250 BCE although many scholars do not think it reached it’s final form until about 400 BCE. Popular opinion holds that the Prophets was put together and canonized about 200 BCE, and the Writings around 100 CE, There is no scholarly consensus on the matter or dates but there is scholarly consensus that it was written, edited, redacted and compiled by the Jews.

As for the New Testment. The apostles and New Testament authors left no list or defined set of holy scripture, but the scripture canon (NT) came into being, slowly, over time. The first canon list was put forward by Marcion in about 140 CE. For the next 1 or 2 hundred years or so, different writings were considered valid - some included and some excluded.

The Catholic Church pretty much as it’s canon finalized by about 400 CE but it would take another 100 years until the Council of Trent to make it binding and official.

However, the Catholic canon is only one of a number of canons. Off hand I can think of 5 different Bible canons. The Catholic Church only put together one of the 5.

 

[Snow]

Your church taught racial purity in its begiinigs. Polygamy is not acceptable in New Testament teachings but your dear leader endorsed it and blackmailed little girls to have sex with him.

…and your mother wears army boots. nah-nah-nah-NAH-nah, nah.

Go molest somebody else. I am not interested.