Mormons and the Gospel

[Tmaque]

TeriGator:

As I mentioned previously, this is not in accord with what we were taught when I was Mormon. In fact, one of the reasons I ultimately could not remain one was that I never knew who to pray to. We talked of an eternal father, but he was not the god of this world. The god of this world had gone through the same sort of life that we had, worshipped the “one god” of his world, followed the teachings of the Messiah of his world, had become a perfected man, and been rewarded for his obedience by continuing as a god of his own world. The eternal father, by contrast, was apparently the original god who started the whole thing but was, by this time, remote and basically unknown.

I’m not trying to be combative here. It’s just that everything you are denying here was openly taught and discussed by members, teachers, apostles, and prophets in Utah. We would have been shocked if someone had denied it, branding them an apostate.

It is obvious from recent statements by Gordon B. Hinckley that the LDS Church is certainly moving away from that belief. However, they don’t come right out and say it. They try to pretend it was never really taught. But, as you and I both know, it most certainly was taught. Joseph Smith, Bruce R. McConkie and many others called it “the first principle of the Gospel”. Now, it’s all but flatly denied. It’s this type of change and the subsequent obfuscation that led me to conclude that the LDS Church must be false.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

John Paul II wrote 30 pages per day for most of his time as Pope, he ordered all of this writing to be destroyed immediately upon his death. It was on television along with his funeral and all his life story woven in. Very important part of the report, and repeated several times. Too bad, because he probably wrote some very interesting things, but apparently did not want to share them with the people.

You can nit pick all you want about the Mormon church and I can nit pick about the Catholic Church and the Mary worship, saint worship, statue worship, the origination of the Rosary and the revelation of celebacy for priests and nuns etc.etc. I accept that you do not believe you are doing these things, but the ones you call illiterate members of the Catholic church do worship these things and the Catholics who posted in my thread on Mary under the freeway, mostly admitted that those people do worship objects. But, the educated Catholics such as yourselves can differentiate between asking Mary or a Saint to pray for them versus actually praying to them. Thin line there, but I accept your belief. I find that in this and most Mormon posts by Catholics, you tend to find the things that you want to use to tear apart the beliefs of the LDS church and to degrade our Prophet. I have never degraded your Pope. On the contrary I hold him in high esteem as a man of God, who has done much to spread Christianity. You on the other hand do not respect my belief and do everything you can to denigrate it, my Prophet, my belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, and my intelligence. I do not have to know everything there is to know about God and history and the Catholic church to know in my heart what the Spirit has testified to me is true. Nothing you say will every convince me that God is not God, and Joseph Smith was not a Prophet, and Gordon B. Hinckley is not a Prophet. These things I KNOW without a shadow of doubt. If it were not true, I would not have answers to my prayers directly from God. I know Him as my Father and He knows me as His child. I love God more than anything in the world and He loves me and knows my name. That is all I need to know. You can argue till you turn blue in the face and I will still believe. I can argue till I’m blue in the face and you will still think Mary is the most important, because she is God’s mother. So there we are still where we were when we started the discussion.
Peace to you, Charity never faileth
BJ

 

[Chris-WA]

John Paul II wrote 30 pages per day for most of his time as Pope, he ordered all of this writing to be destroyed immediately upon his death. It was on television along with his funeral and all his life story woven in. Very important part of the report, and repeated several times. Too bad, because he probably wrote some very interesting things, but apparently did not want to share them with the people.

Could you please tell me where you got this information about the pope having all his writings burned? I watched a lot of the papal events these last couple weeks and never heard anything about this.

I find that in this and most Mormon posts by Catholics, you tend to find the things that you want to use to tear apart the beliefs of the LDS church and to degrade our Prophet.

No, BJ, we have been quite respectful, not degrading. Degrading is when someone makes derogatory remarks or uses put-downs. All we have done is point out some major inconsistencies that are worth discussing. Of course you have the choice to ignore them and claim that we’re simply trying to be derogatory, but this is not an honest way to deal with the issues. Obviously we have touched a nerve here. It’s your choice how to deal with it. You can either attempt to answer some of the tougher questions or you can ignore them and say, “Nothing you can say will ever change my mind.” I’ve heard this before and it’s not a healthy way of dealing with a challenge. If you challenge me on my Catholic beliefs, I will do the research and come up with the best answer I can. I will not turn my back to you. I will consider what you ask and do my best to answer it. Have I ever done otherwise?

Yes, I challenge Joseph Smith’s claim of being a prophet. Though LDS leaders may respect the pope as a human being, the LDS church believes the pope and the Catholic priesthood are false and apostate. I don’t get too emotional about it. I do the research and try to give the best answer I can. But I will never say, “Nothing you can say will change my mind.” That would be putting an imaginary brick wall around myself and refusing to come out.

I invite you, in the love of Christ, to not turn your back when we ask the tough questions. I will never do that to you.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Colossians: “for by him (Jesus)were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: (all )things were created (by him), and for him.”
This would include satan as well / This is one huge divide between Christians and Mormons. Only love can bridge this divide, and it shall.

This faith, this Catholic faith is so real, it is so beautiful, and it is so huge spanning 2000 years of Masses, proclaiming Christ one death until he comes again. As a born again Mormon, born into the Passion of Christ I want to ad this: This Church that consists of only sinners has been given the tools through the Sacraments, not for progression, because where is there to progress except to our One God, but rather given so that we can heal. Because mankind rejected God in the garden, just as mankind still does today, and I include all mankind in this,… we all die. Because we severed our relationship with his grace, the life giving grace / breathe of God. In the garden we chose to be centered into ourselves, we chose to become a god. This is what has caused every ill in the world up to today. Jesus saves us from ourselves. The only way for Him to save us if for us to become the lamb upon His back. Nothing we can do will get us to heaven, but everything he has done for us will. This brings peace into ones life, peace in good times and in times of suffering. The foot of the cross is a great place to be, to receive the revelation of who God is, who Christ is. He is very different than the Mormon God. They could not be further apart. It is black and white. I say this with all humility, and pray for those that have not yet found Christianity in it’s fullest sense.

 

[mormon_fool]

Catholic Dude:

I had these questions about the Gospel according to Mormons.
Why does the Gospel get mentioned to Adam and Eve in Mormon teaching? I have read that they knew about the Gospel, and that the original sin was no big deal, in fact it was a great thing. Why was sin a good thing?

These are some very good questions.

There are perhaps many reasons why God taught Adam and Eve or perhaps any of righteous children His Gospel. The Gospel can be said to represent an important part of the the “knowledge of good and evil” that Adam and Eve were entitled to after partaking of the forbidden fruit. I think the overall plan is to teach the truth and give people the moral agency to accept or reject it. Mormons teachings like the idea that the Gospel has been given throughout history when ever there has been a people righteous enough to receive it.

Adam and Eve’s sin is a big deal. It introduced sin, death, and sorrow to Adam and his future descendents. These negative effects have some purpose in creating an environment where many can experience a testing period to see if they make the right choices despite adversity. The negative effects are also ultimately prevailed against through the sacrifice of Christ and repentance. Sin is never a good in and of itself, but sometimes good can come come out of it for individuals that learn and progress from their mistakes and re-dedicate themselves to following Christ.

The real question in my mind is not whether God would have prepared some other way to fulfill his “replenish the earth” command, but the undesirability of having everyone’s mortality confined to a stagnant paradise where there are no opportunities to grow spiritually.

It’s good to have time to post again.

fool

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Chris-WA:

Could you please tell me where you got this information about the pope having all his writings burned? I watched a lot of the papal events these last couple weeks and never heard anything about this.

It was mentioned several times on CNN and on Fox TV just as the Pope was dying and soon after he died, but never again. I am sure the Catholic Church would not want to dwell on that, but it happened. Maybe someone has access to the Pope’s last wishes, as that was one of them. How else would I know about him writing 30 pages a day. He was a prolific writer but did not want others to read his writings after he had passed. This is fact and some of the priests in this forum can possibly tell you it is true.
I don’t mind if you ask questions and I don’t claim to know the history of the LDS church as you do, but I know truth in the way that you make fun of, by the Holy Ghost’s power to let me know, when something is true, and when something is not true. You know that warm feeling that you all claim is heartburn. Which is why you may never know the truth. You do not listen to the Holy Spirit, and if you turn your back on the Holy Spirit, unfortunately you also turn your back on God. I am sorry for you. Maybe Mormon Fool can answer your questions, he has much more education than I do in scripture.
BJ

 

[catholic-rcia]

The real question in my mind is not whether God would have prepared some other way to fulfill his “replenish the earth” command, but the undesirability of having everyone’s mortality confined to a stagnant paradise where there are no opportunities to grow spiritually.

This sounds so crazy to me as a Catholic. Here is an example: A three year old falls into a pond because one was asking them to enter, the three year old has brain damage because she was pulled out to late. Would you think that this was a good thing? We did not obey God and left the garden simply put – we now die. The reason we fell was because the devil offered us more than what we had with God. This more is nothing; it dies as it is away from the grace of God. What we learn here on earth is that the devil tempted us away from God.

Once back in His loving grace we will never go there again. This is progression. To be in the grace of God forever, to get back to the garden knowing what we have done, how Satan fooled us. I myself would have no problem living in this garden forever with God. It is the only real place to be. I would love to speak on this more but have to go. You say “confined to a stagnant paradise???” Think about what you are saying. Pray about this. “no opportunities to grow spiritually” We were in the fullness of God, sinless, perfect harmony. This is not enough? Think about who is offering you more than this and your eyes may be opened. Think about what Jesus had to go through to bring you back home because of this kind of foolish thinking.

Pray

God Bless

 

[Chris-WA]

mormon fool:

The real question in my mind is not whether God would have prepared some other way to fulfill his “replenish the earth” command, but the undesirability of having everyone’s mortality confined to a stagnant paradise where there are no opportunities to grow spiritually.

Before the Fall, Adam and Eve existed in a perfect state of grace in communion with God, in other words, “spiritual life” or “divine sonship.” Calling it a “stagnant paradise” I think inaccurately describes this state of existence. What they were before the Fall is what God ultimately desires for all of us now. The Fall brought about “spiritual death”-- a broken covenant separating mankind from God. The whole purpose for the gospel is to correct this wrong. This is one reason why we can say that there is orginal sin–the state of separation inherited by all mankind as a result of the Fall, which is cleansed through baptism. Baptism is a cleansing–what are we cleaning if not original sin?

 

[petra]

BJ Colbert:

John Paul II wrote 30 pages per day for most of his time as Pope, he ordered all of this writing to be destroyed immediately upon his death. It was on television along with his funeral and all his life story woven in. Very important part of the report, and repeated several times. Too bad, because he probably wrote some very interesting things, but apparently did not want to share them with the people. . .

It was mentioned several times on CNN and on Fox TV just as the Pope was dying and soon after he died, but never again. I am sure the Catholic Church would not want to dwell on that, but it happened. Maybe someone has access to the Pope’s last wishes, as that was one of them. How else would I know about him writing 30 pages a day. He was a prolific writer but did not want others to read his writings after he had passed. This is fact and some of the priests in this forum can possibly tell you it is true.

So why are all his writings still published on the Vatican web site?
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/

 

[Cindybasket]

I believe what was originally “reported” by the media was that any writings not yet pubished or released by the Vatican from Pope John Paul II were going to be destroyed or not released. I imagine (purely speculation though) that anything that was in the works will now be reviewed by our new Pope Benedict XVI before it is made available.

 

[petra]

BJ Colbert:

I don’t mind if you ask questions and I don’t claim to know the history of the LDS church as you do, but I know truth in the way that you make fun of, by the Holy Ghost’s power to let me know, when something is true, and when something is not true. You know that warm feeling that you all claim is heartburn. Which is why you may never know the truth. You do not listen to the Holy Spirit, and if you turn your back on the Holy Spirit, unfortunately you also turn your back on God. I am sorry for you.

BJ, I’m not clear about what was said that may have resulted in your interpretation that you were being made fun of. This discussion has remained focused on the objective facts about a specific doctrine and has remained respectful and charitable. But that said, if it is your perception that Mormonism was being made fun of, please know that was not our intent.

Regarding the burning of the bossom . . . since we are body, soul, and spirit and are integrated as such, being moved in the spirit can result in emotional and physical sensations. But there are many other reasons for such a feeling. I mean no disrespect, but someone may actually have heartburn. Human emotion is also extremely volitile. Strong emotion can emerge from relatively sparse objective data, such as infatuation between a man and woman. Additionally, the scriptures indicate that we can become discouraged by the devil. If he can influence our emotions in that direction, it is certainly possible he can create a good feeling about something that is false. Bottom line is, feelings are what they are. It is not a good idea to test spirits or doctrines with feelings. Rather, we should do as the Bereans did. They examined the scriptures daily to see if what they were being taught by Paul and Silas was true. (Acts 17:11) In other words, to determine the truth of something, we cannot exclude reason. Faith is required, yes. But the object of faith must be verified.

For example, 2 people may have faith in the strength and durability of 2 different chairs. One chair is made of balsa wood; the other is oak. If one person has total faith that the balsa wood chair will hold him when he sits in it and the other person has just enough faith in the oak chair to sit down gingerly, the results of sitting in the chairs have no bearing on the amount of faith exercised. It is the object of the faith that will determine whether the person comes crashing to the floor.

Similarly, having a good feeling and lots of faith is irrelevant to whether our faith will actually save us. Our salvation depends upon the OBJECT of that faith. Is our faith in a exalted man-god or is it in God Eternal? God has given us all the faculties to evaluate the object of our faith. Among these faculties is reason, which enables us to identify contradictions and inconsistencies in what is asserted with what scriptures and history indicate. An investment of faith is then appropriate when we have determined that a specific object of faith is reliable.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

petra:

So why are all his writings still published on the Vatican web site?
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/

It was his personal writings, not his published writings that he asked to have destroyed after death.

They gave that as one of his requests in his will, so I don’t know anything other than that. CNN may very well have been wrong, they were most likely getting their reports from priests and others who were not well informed, but I don’t have any idea why they reported that. I just know I heard it, so argue till dooms day. My Catholic husband heard it, I asked him again when you all questioned my saying it, and he verified he heard it clearly several times. We both said at the time we heard it, “what a shame to lose such valuable writings, and not to have them shared with humanity”.
I think he probably did not want someone arguing over his pesonal beliefs and checking to see if they coincided with all the Catholic dogma,or not. Someone would most certainly come out with something derogatory and make a big thing out of a small thought process and doom him to hell. Just as the ones in this post do with any personal thoughts of a Prophet(not allowed to be human if you are a prophet or a pope) I am so glad all of you have reached perfection and are assured your place in heaven.
I will keep working on my progression, one step at a time. Right now I am working on reading scripture every day, so maybe in about 2 more years I will have that mastered. Also working on praying more and not using triteness in my prayers, making them more meaningful, because I am sure God does not want us to use the same words over and over to bore Him silly. He wants us to pray from our heart and in detail, not as in (bless everybody amen)
I will continue to work on treating my fellowmen with respect, which I really don’t have too much trouble with(I am kind of a pushover when it comes to taking care of people less fortunate). There are just so many things to work on I really will never be sure when I have it all together, it may not happen till after I die. But, God knows I am trying my best and He will do the rest for me if I do my best.
In this post on the Pope, some have pretty much said I was lying, so I must say to you, I do not lie, and certainly would not lie in this post about your Pope. I heard it on CNN and Fox TV. They might lie, but I am only repeating what I heard.
It is difficult to tell people what you believe, when they keep saying they know what you believe, and you are wrong. So why do you start posts having anything to do with Mormons when you all know the answers already? If a Mormon trys to explain our beliefs you all jump in and tell him he is wrong, and that you know what he believes better than he does. You gloss over the discrepancies in the Catholic church by saying those weren’t doctrine so it was ok to change the rules or make new rules. That is pretty convenient for you. Too bad you don’t allow other churches the same latitude.
If we had a change of any kind, it is considered by you to be a change of doctrine. Even though you claim we have no doctrine.
Very confusing to me, but just have at it. Go ahead and talk in circles all you want without any Mormons to argue, you can debate both sides, you do anyway. BJ

 

[juno24]

BJ Colbert:

It was mentioned several times on CNN and on Fox TV just as the Pope was dying and soon after he died, but never again. I am sure the Catholic Church would not want to dwell on that, but it happened. Maybe someone has access to the Pope’s last wishes, as that was one of them. How else would I know about him writing 30 pages a day. He was a prolific writer but did not want others to read his writings after he had passed. This is fact and some of the priests in this forum can possibly tell you it is true.

BJ, this assertion simply is not true! You can go online right this very minute and find an entire library of Pope John Paul II’s writings.

I do, however, recall hearing that one of his last wishes was to have any UNFINISHED writings destroyed, but certainly not ALL of his finished, published or unpublished, works! It has absolutely nothing to do with him not wanting anyone to ever read his writings again. It has to do with erasing the possibility of someone else finishing the things that he left unfinished and possibly attaching heretical ideas to his name.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

mormon fool:

These are some very good questions.

There are perhaps many reasons why God taught Adam and Eve or perhaps any of righteous children His Gospel. The Gospel can be said to represent an important part of the the “knowledge of good and evil” that Adam and Eve were entitled to after partaking of the forbidden fruit. I think the overall plan is to teach the truth and give people the moral agency to accept or reject it. Mormons teachings like the idea that the Gospel has been given throughout history when ever there has been a people righteous enough to receive it.

A major part of the plan of the Gospel is to tell others and give them the free will to accept or reject it, this is Biblically sound. Now the problem come about how do Mormons define “Gospel”?
The Gospel only came around when Jesus started His earthly minisry, not before. He commanded his chosen apostles to tell everyone about Him, and why He was important, and what a person was to do for Him if they wish to accept. The first step of accepting is to be Baptized, Adam and Eve were not Baptized and never heard of it, it is not mentioned anywhere. I even remember the revelation of JS where right off the bat he was Baptized before he told others, it was the first thing he did. Baptism was revealed by Jesus, thats how JS knew about it in the first place (and how other readers knew what he was saying) because the Gospel had been passed down via the very Bible he quotes from in the writing.

Adam and Eve’s sin is a big deal. It introduced sin, death, and sorrow to Adam and his future descendents. These negative effects have some purpose in creating an environment where many can experience a testing period to see if they make the right choices despite adversity. The negative effects are also ultimately prevailed against through the sacrifice of Christ and repentance. Sin is never a good in and of itself, but sometimes good can come come out of it for individuals that learn and progress from their mistakes and re-dedicate themselves to following Christ.

I agree with this, good does prevail, but the pure fact that if they never sinned Christ would not have to have been put to death. In knowing that, the Gospel woulndt have mattered because there was nothing for Jesus to die for and no need for “good news” because in Paradise there was no such thing as “bad news”.

The real question in my mind is not whether God would have prepared some other way to fulfill his “replenish the earth” command, but the undesirability of having everyone’s mortality confined to a stagnant paradise where there are no opportunities to grow spiritually.

It’s good to have time to post again.

fool

Isnt Heaven “confined to a stagnant paradise?”
Spirituallity is primariyly because we are designed to desire more than what physical reality can give us, that craving is for God and to do as He says. That being said I have always thought about what Adam and Eve did during the day.

 

[mormon_fool]

Chris-WA:

Before the Fall, Adam and Eve existed in a perfect state of grace in communion with God, in other words, “spiritual life” or “divine sonship.” Calling it a “stagnant paradise” I think inaccurately describes this state of existence. What they were before the Fall is what God ultimately desires for all of us now.

I am with you on your first sentence. Perhaps with some more discussion we will see that we aren’t so far apart or at least more clearly identify areas of disagreement. I try to be sensitive that my ideas might come across as foolish to others.

I call it a “stagnant paradise” because I do not see optimal conditions in the Garden of Eden for spiritual growth. Let me define growth as becoming more like God. This includes developing a knowledge of good and evil like God, resisting all kinds of temptations, overcoming all kinds of trials, and obtaining Godly attributes (e.g., charity).

I see pre-fall Adam and Eve (and all of us by extension) as much in need of spiritual growth. While they remainded sinless for awhile, it was only because they were given very little opportunity to sin. To sin is to act knowingly or willfully against God’s commands. When someone is kept in ignorance or given very few commandments to follow, it is easy to maintain a sinless environment.

Progressive people (or literary characters) like Eve and Adam, Oliver Twist, and fool are disastified with such limited environments and want more. If we repent of our sins, follow Christ, and learn what this life has to offer we can, through Christ, return to the presence of God in a more spiritually advanced state than we would have if we had remained in His presence the whole time.

The Fall brought about “spiritual death”-- a broken covenant separating mankind from God.

I agree. Well said.

The whole purpose for the gospel is to correct this wrong.

I would say that this is a major reason for the gospel. I would also affirm the over-arching purpose is to help God’s children become more like Him and be cleansed so as to be worthy to be in His presence (again). The Fall, sin, physical and spiritual death are all things that must be overcome through Christ.

Baptism is a cleansing–what are we cleaning if not original sin?

According to mormon teaching we only accountable for our own sins.

BTW If anyone is thinking that I am significantly deviating from Mormon teaching I suggest checking out this compilation of short articles (particularly the one titled Opposition)

lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/gospel/fall/index.htm

 

[mormon_fool]

BJ Colbert:

It was his personal writings, not his published writings that he asked to have destroyed after death.
They gave that as one of his requests in his will, so I don’t know anything other than that. CNN may very well have been wrong,

Sister Colbert,

It wasn’t too hard to do an internet search and find a news article that verifies what you heard. Don’t get too frustrated, at least I believe you .

freep.com/news/religion/popewill-bar18e_20050408.htm

 

[tkdnick]

mormon fool:

Adam and Eve’s sin is a big deal. It introduced sin, death, and sorrow to Adam and his future descendents. These negative effects have some purpose in creating an environment where many can experience a testing period to see if they make the right choices despite adversity. The negative effects are also ultimately prevailed against through the sacrifice of Christ and repentance. Sin is never a good in and of itself, but sometimes good can come come out of it for individuals that learn and progress from their mistakes and re-dedicate themselves to following Christ.

FOOL - You are the very first LDS member to outright acknowledge the damage and negativeness of Adam and Eve’s sin!! THANK YOU!!

 

[tkdnick]

BJ Colbert:

I don’t mind if you ask questions and I don’t claim to know the history of the LDS church as you do, but I know truth in the way that you make fun of, by the Holy Ghost’s power to let me know, when something is true, and when something is not true. You know that warm feeling that you all claim is heartburn. Which is why you may never know the truth. You do not listen to the Holy Spirit, and if you turn your back on the Holy Spirit, unfortunately you also turn your back on God. I am sorry for you.

BJ, I obviously haven’t posted much on this thread, but I have been keeping up with the posts. I do not recall seeing a single post that was blatantly derogatory or “attacking” your church. I have yet to see anyone here make fun of your “knowing” by the Holy Spirit. But, the word “know” has connotation of belonging to facts, research, mental grasping. So when you say you “know” something because of the burning in you bosom, you are taking the word “know” out of the context it was meant to be in. The proper word for the context would be that you believe such-and-such, or you feel this or that.

I have also heard several times that the Pope’s personal writings and unfinished writings were to be burned.

And I really think it rather disrespectful of you to accuse all of us of ignoring the promptings of the Holy Spirit and turning our backs on God!

 

[tkdnick]

mormon fool:

I call it a “stagnant paradise” because I do not see optimal conditions in the Garden of Eden for spiritual growth. Let me define growth as becoming more like God. This includes developing a knowledge of good and evil like God…

This is EXACTLY the lie that Satan told Adam and Eve!

Genesis 3:4-5 “But the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Genesis 3:11-14 (emphasis added) "He said ‘Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?’ The man said, ‘The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me the fruit of the tree, and I ate.’ Then the Lord God said to the woman, 'What is this that you have done?’ The woman said, 'The serpent beguiled me, and I ate.’ The Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you…’”

God didn’t want them to eat the fruit! They weren’t supposed to eat it. And because they did they were punished, and the serprent was cursed for deceiving them! Why would God punish them and curse the serpent if they were meant to eat it?

Of course they didn’t have opportunity for spiritual growth or anything like that in the garden…They didn’t need it until they sinned!

 

[Chris-WA]

mormon fool:

Sister Colbert,

It wasn’t too hard to do an internet search and find a news article that verifies what you heard. Don’t get too frustrated, at least I believe you .

freep.com/news/religion/popewill-bar18e_20050408.htm

Thanks for the source. That’s all I was asking BJ for. For some reason she took it that we thought she was lying.