Mormons and the Nicene creed

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ryanoneil said:
Thank you. I should have probably said seperate persons. I’m I correct in thinking that Mormons believe God the Father and Jesus are seperate individual persons?

If so, Colossians 1:15-17 and Isaiah 44:24 have to refer only to Jesus, by Mormon standards, or they contradict each another. By Catholic standards their is no contadiction, because the Father and the Son are one.

Maybe this was a bad comparison on my part. I always assumed Mormons believed Jehovah was God the Father.

I’ll have to make another post.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
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I don’t understand what the difference is between distinct persons and separate persons. Both of these terms seem to say the same thing to me.
 
cazayoux said:
It was from your article… in your explanation of a verse of scripture.

This is very straightforward in that Jesus says his Father in heaven revealed this to Simon.

Your text reads.

Did Simon have something revealed (revelation) to him by the Father or the Holy Spirit? … or are they the same?

Your explanation of the verse leads me to believe that you think the Father and the Holy Spirit are the same.

michel
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God reveals His mind and will to man by means of His Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 2:

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

John 14:

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Hence, one of the functions of the Holy Spirit is to testify of Jesus Christ. The testimony comes from God, and is conveyed by the power of the Holy Ghost:

John 15:

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.

Hence the testimony that Peter received came form God the Father, but the agent through which it was conveyed was the Holy Ghost. The ancient prophets also spoke as inspired by the Holy Ghost, hence they spoke the word of God:

2 Peter 1:

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Jesus also taught His disciples by the power of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 1:

2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen.

Furthermore, the Book of Mormon informs us that angels convey the word of God to us by the power of the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 32:

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ.

All of the above means that God the Father conveys His messages, His testimony, and His mind and will and purpose to us by the power of the Holy Ghost. It does not mean that the Father and the Holy Ghost must therefore be one and the same.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
God reveals His mind and will to man by means of His Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 2:

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

John 14:

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Hence, one of the functions of the Holy Spirit is to testify of Jesus Christ. The testimony comes from God, and is conveyed by the power of the Holy Ghost:

John 15:

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.

Hence the testimony that Peter received came form God the Father, but the agent through which it was conveyed was the Holy Ghost. The ancient prophets also spoke as inspired by the Holy Ghost, hence they spoke the word of God:

2 Peter 1:

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Jesus also taught His disciples by the power of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 1:

2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen.

Furthermore, the Book of Mormon informs us that angels convey the word of God to us by the power of the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 32:

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ.

All of the above means that God the Father conveys His messages, His testimony, and His mind and will and purpose to us by the power of the Holy Ghost. It does not mean that the Father and the Holy Ghost must therefore be one and the same.

zerinus
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I don’t think any Catholic here is claiming that the Father and the Holy Ghost are one and the same. They are distinct persons existing with the Son as One God.
 
BartBurk said:
I don’t think any Catholic here is claiming that the Father and the Holy Ghost are one and the same. They are distinct persons existing with the Son as One God.
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Why don’t you read peoples’ posts properly before replying to them? Shooting from the hip is not a good idea.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
You mean like the Trinity you believe in? I guess yes!

zerinus
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No not really. But, please answer these questions.

Does your Bible read John 1:1-3 - "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was “a” God?

Is Christ is the “true” God or a “false” God?

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
ryanoneil said:
No not really. But, please answer these questions.

Does your Bible read John 1:1-3 - "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was “a” God?
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No, that is not what my Bible reads. You can go the the LDS website, and find our for yourself what the LDS Bible reads. Why do you ask me?
Is Christ is the “true” God or a “false” God?
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Christ is true God.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
No, that is not what my Bible reads. You can go the the LDS website, and find our for yourself what the LDS Bible reads. Why do you ask me?

Christ is true God.

zerinus
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Because I was told the Mormon Bible added “a” where the Catholic Bible doesn’t have it. Anyway, that is a whole other conversation.

Is Christ the One True Almighty God?
 
ryanoneil said:
Because I was told the Mormon Bible added “a” where the Catholic Bible doesn’t have it. Anyway, that is a whole other conversation.
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It looks like you have been “told” an awful lot of false stories about Mormonism. My advice to you is that you get hold of a copy of the Book of Mormon, and read it so you can at least carry on an intelligent discussion about Mormonism—instead of discussing it on the basis of your false ideas and misconceptions.
Is Christ the One True Almighty God?
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Christ is God; but He is not identical with God the Father.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
We use the KJV. You can read or search it online here.

zerinus
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Thank you. I see that KJV reads “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

So, this goes back to my earlier posts and questions. This verse basically says Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was the Father. (In other words, they are the same person)

Then when we look at Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13 The Father and Jesus call themselves the “Alpha and the Omega.” They can’t both be the first and the last unless (they are the same person)

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the **only true **God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Wouldn’t this make Jesus a false God unless (they are the same person)

Psalm 86:10; For thou art great and doest wondrous things, thou alone art God. this make Jesus a false God unless (they are the same person)

Is. 44:6; Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. this make Jesus a false God unless (they are the same person)

Please comment. This is the only explaination that makes sense to me.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
ryanoneil said:
Thank you. I see that KJV reads “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

So, this goes back to my earlier posts and questions. This verse basically says Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was the Father. (In other words, they are the same person)
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That is not how I read that. I read in it that Jesus was with God (which means that the two cannot be the same); and also that Jesus was God—meaning that Jesus and His Father are two separate and divine beings.
Then when we look at Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13 The Father and Jesus call themselves the “Alpha and the Omega.” They can’t both be the first and the last unless (they are the same person)
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I don’t see what is the basis of your assertion that one of these verses refer to the Father and the other to Jesus. I don’t see such a distinction between the two. Both verses seem to me to be referring to Jesus.
John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Wouldn’t this make Jesus a false God unless (they are the same person)
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Again, I don’t see that. Jesus was addressing His Father in prayer. Was He addressing Himself in prayer? How can that make any sense?
Psalm 86:10; For thou art great and doest wondrous things, thou alone art God. this make Jesus a false God unless (they are the same person)
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Is. 44:6; Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. this make Jesus a false God unless (they are the same person)
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The references to the oneness of God in the poetic and prophetic passages of the Bible have a special significance. I have already discussed that at length in this post
Please comment. This is the only explaination that makes sense to me.
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It certainly does not make sense to me.

zerinus
 
From the LDS KJV at scriptures.lds.org:
1 John 5:7:
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
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This very clearly states simply that the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost are three that are one. Not of one mind, or of one purpose, but simply One. That this “doesn’t make sense” to people isn’t surprising - how limited would God be if we, as mere creatures, could fully understand Him? The Triune nature of God is something that we are called to accept on faith. Scripture passages and quotations of the Early Church Fathers and Mormon Prophets can be flung back and forth for decades, but it comes down to this - do you have the faith necessary to accept that God is beyond human understanding?

Just because something doesn’t make sense to us doesn’t mean it’s false. Quantum mechanics predicts that a single electron, fired at a target with two slits, will pass through both at the same time. This was predicted by the underlying mathematics, and has been confirmed by experimentation (Google “Double-Slit Experiment” for details). For most people, this is a totally counter-intuitive phenomenon - how can a single thing be in two places at once?

Simply not understanding something doesn’t make it false.
 
zerinus said:
The references to the oneness of God in the poetic and prophetic passages of the Bible have a special significance. I have already discussed that at length in this post
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Here’s some advice from my experience with z.
Don’t bother reading any ‘article’ z gives you.
If you have questions about the article, he will not answer.
It would be a waste of time reading something he can’t/won’t answer questions about.

michel
 
cazayoux said:
Here’s some advice from my experience with z.
Don’t bother reading any ‘article’ z gives you.
If you have questions about the article, he will not answer.
It would be a waste of time reading something he can’t/won’t answer questions about.

michel
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That is not true at all. If people ask sensible questions about my articles I will answer them; but not nonsensical ones. If somebody doesn’t read the article properly, and asks questions that are already answered within the article; or if they ask irrelevant questions; then there is nothing to answer.

zerinus
 
I realize we are going to have to agree to disagree, but I appreciate the conversation because it helps me understand my faith and your faith better.
zerinus said:
That is not how I read that. I read in it that Jesus was with God (which means that the two cannot be the same); and also that Jesus was God—meaning that Jesus and His Father are two separate and divine beings.
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ryanoneil was with zerinus and ryanoneil was zerinus. :confused:
I don’t see what is the basis of your assertion that one of these verses refer to the Father and the other to Jesus. I don’t see such a distinction between the two. Both verses seem to me to be referring to Jesus.
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God the father in Ezekiel 37:27 said “He will dwell with them and they will be his people”, and He says the same thing Rev:21:3. Also, God the father in Isaiah 25:8 says “He will wipe every tear from their eyes” and repeats this in Rev:21:4

I don’t know, maybe you see Jesus in these Old Testament verses. 🤷
Again, I don’t see that. Jesus was addressing His Father in prayer. Was He addressing Himself in prayer? How can that make any sense?
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Shouldn’t Jesus have used the word me instead of thee. Also, did Jesus send Himself or did the Father send him?
The references to the oneness of God in the poetic and prophetic passages of the Bible have a special significance. I have already discussed that at length in this post
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Interesting article, but we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
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