Mormons and the Nicene creed

[PaulDupre]

Again, I don’t see that. Jesus was addressing His Father in prayer. Was He addressing Himself in prayer? How can that make any sense?

zerinus

Mormons and other non-Christians love to make this argument, but it is a straw-man. Christians do not believe that Jesus was praying to himself; we believe he was praying to the Father. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, though they are one God with one divine nature.

Your citation of this event to attempt to debunk Christian theology reveals that you do not understand what Christians believe. Or else you are being intentionally disingenuous.

Paul

 

[zerinus]

I realize we are going to have to agree to disagree, but I appreciate the conversation because it helps me understand my faith and your faith better.

You are very welcome.

ryanoneil was with zerinus and ryanoneil was zerinus.

No. ryanoneil was with zerinus, and both are divine! (or perhaps we should say in this case, Both are human!).

God the father in Ezekiel 37:27 said “He will dwell with them and they will be his people”, and He says the same thing Rev:21:3. Also, God the father in Isaiah 25:8 says “He will wipe every tear from their eyes” and repeats this in Rev:21:4

I don’t know, maybe you see Jesus in these Old Testament verses.

Yes, I do. I see no clear justification for one identity over the other.

Shouldn’t Jesus have used the word me instead of thee.

Why?

Also, did Jesus send Himself or did the Father send him?

Obviously the Father sent Him—and so?

Interesting article, but we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Maybe that would be best.

zerinus

 

[ryanoneil]

Why?

I apologize. I misread your reply. I thought you said Jesus was refering to Himself.

Obviously the Father sent Him—and so?

I apologize. I misread your reply. I thought you said Jesus was refering to Himself.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the **only true **God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

This is not poetic Old Testament scripture that refers to idol worship.

Jesus is refering to the Father, and because He says that the Father is the only true God,

Jesus is confirming that **all other **God’s are false Gods.

If Jesus and the Father are seperate, Jesus has to be a false God.
He is not seperate from the Father though.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[zerinus]

I apologize. I misread your reply. I thought you said Jesus was refering to Himself.

I apologize. I misread your reply. I thought you said Jesus was refering to Himself.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the **only true **God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

This is not poetic Old Testament scripture that refers to idol worship.

Jesus is refering to the Father, and because He says that the Father is the only true God,

Jesus is confirming that **all other **God’s are false Gods.

If Jesus and the Father are seperate, Jesus has to be a false God.
He is not seperate from the Father though.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Peace,

Ryan

The doctrine of deification of man and plurality of gods has a long story in Christian history and theology. I have discussed that in the following two articles:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/deification-of-man-and-plurality-of.html
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-on-deification-in-early.html

zerinus

 

[BartBurk]

Mormons and other non-Christians love to make this argument, but it is a straw-man. Christians do not believe that Jesus was praying to himself; we believe he was praying to the Father. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons, though they are one God with one divine nature.

Your citation of this event to attempt to debunk Christian theology reveals that you do not understand what Christians believe. Or else you are being intentionally disingenuous.

Paul

This is a very common LDS tactic. I used to hear it in Sunday School all the time. I finally got tired of it. Of course if I complain about their misinterpretation of the Trinity I am simply shooting from the hip …

 

[Chris-WA]

That is not how I read that. I read in it that Jesus was with God (which means that the two cannot be the same); and also that Jesus was God—meaning that Jesus and His Father are two separate and divine beings.

So what you are literally saying is that you interpret this passage to mean that Jesus was with God (the Father) and Jesus was ***a ***god within the Godhead? But that’s not what the passage says. The word for God is the same with both reference to God the Father and Jesus. How can they have the same name (God), but be separate gods?

In the trinitarian view, the only way Jesus can both be with *God *and be God is if they are somehow the same God while simultaneously being individual persons.

 

[BartBurk]

So what you are literally saying is that you interpret this passage to mean that Jesus was with God (the Father) and Jesus was ***a ***god within the Godhead? But that’s not what the passage says. The word for God is the same with both reference to God the Father and Jesus. How can they have the same name (God), but be separate gods?

In the trinitarian view, the only way Jesus can both be with God and be God is if they are somehow the same God while simultaneously being individual persons.

Zerinius understands what Catholics believe. He just refuses to acknowledge there is only one God inspite of the witness of the Bible. Sadly, he denies his own Book of Mormon as well.

 

[Paul_G]

So what you are literally saying is that you interpret this passage to mean that Jesus was with God (the Father) and Jesus was ***a ***god within the Godhead? But that’s not what the passage says. The word for God is the same with both reference to God the Father and Jesus. How can they have the same name (God), but be separate gods?

In the trinitarian view, the only way Jesus can both be with God and be God is if they are somehow the same God while simultaneously being individual persons.

The Greek word you refer to make your point is “theos” which is the generic Greek term for God, for example, this word is used also in reference to Satan “the god (theos) of this world” (2Cor:4-4) Zerinus’s comment makes more scriptural sense to me

With respect,
Paul.

 

[ryanoneil]

The doctrine of deification of man and plurality of gods has a long story in Christian history and theology. I have discussed that in the following two articles:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/deification-of-man-and-plurality-of.html
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-on-deification-in-early.html

zerinus

In your first blog you cite Psalms 82:6: If you want to read the psalms literally here then why not Psalm 86:10. The critics you site argue for me, so I won’t comment further. They have been correct for 2,000 years.

In your second blog none of the quotes use God in a plural sense. You are taking these verses out of context. In case you didn’t know, we are the body of Christ. In Christ’s body we are God. (Not individually)

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Eph. 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones

Rom. 12:4-5 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Cor. 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

Peace,

Ryan