Mormons and the Origin of the Bible

[BartBurk]

Once I tried to show a Mormon the Bible’s teaching of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist by using John 6 and various other New Testament scriptures. I can also show it from the Book of Mormon, but I didn’t mention that. Anyway, the Mormon’s response was that the Bible was just hearsay – that’s why new scriptures were needed.

Mormons don’t care about the origin of the Bible. In his book “A Marvelous Work and a Wonder,” LeGrand Richards stated that all the Bibles in the world could be destroyed and it wouldn’t make any difference because God had revealed the truth to modern day prophets through modern day scripture.

 

[Pjs2ejs]

Zerinus, you obviously do not understand what Catholic means. The Catholic Church is the universal Christian Church. In those days, there was one universal Christian Church. Hence, the Catholic Church. They were Catholics.

It doesn’t matter when the official term started to be used. There was one church. And a few hundred years later, when the canon was decided upon, it was the one same universal church, the Catholic Church, who decided. There were no other branches of Christianity, at least none that survived. Only one survived from the beginning. Yep, the Catholic Church.

I’m sorry to think that you feel the Gates of Hell prevailed against Christ’s church for 1700+ years but that’s not the case. It contradicts the Bible.

 

[rich123456]

Dear Zerinous

Here is a writing dated pre LDS- Apostasy below. The Mass, the Eucharist is the center of our Faith, it is our faith. It is Christianity. It is the very reason you or I can even whisper the name of Jesus. The Catholic Mass catholicmass.org/english.html has brought his one death and resurrection to even you, to all who proclaim Christ as their Savior. It takes place every two minutes on earth 24 hours every day, 7 days a week, 365 days and nights each years except on Good Friday. It is the most humbling of places to be. It is the only place to be if you truly desire Christ to be at the very center of your life. God at the very center of your life. To say that it needed restoring is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If you keep on learning and studying and get closer to understanding Apostolic Confession then to understanding the receiving of Christ blood, body, soul and divinity in Holy Communion there may be no turning back for you unless you can pick up your Cross and follow Him. As one who was raised Mormon I would say I never could have imagined such a cross in my life. It is authentic and it will not let you down if you can stand at the foot of His cross and forgive, ask to be forgiven. utahmission.com/pages/Forgive.html If only my parents had known God
*Rich / www.utahmission.com *

*St. Justin describes the Mass. (The year is 150 A.D.; he is a martyr who was beheaded in 165 at Rome Italy) *

“The people gathered together on Sunday, the ‘Lord’s Day’ participated in prayers and hymns, and listened to readings from the Old Testament and from the writings of the apostles. Then as always, bread and wine and water were offered and the words of Jesus at the Last Supper were prayed by the one presiding. The people received the body and blood of Christ, and the Holy Communion was brought to the sick. A collection was taken for the poor and the needy.”
St. Paul* wrote*: “For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” (1 Cor 11:26) He also wrote: “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body for we all partake of the one loaf” (1 Cor 11:16-17 and 1 Cor 12).

Through the centuries, the Mass has remained fully intact.
(1 Cor 11:26).

St. Ignatius of Antioch’s Letter to the Smyrnaeans on the Mass. (The year is 110 A.D.)

He became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He received the martyr’s crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena. He wrote:

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not profess that the Eucharist (Jn 6:66) is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”
It is the Mass that has brought Christ into the present. It is the sign given as you contemplate all of chapter 6 in John’s gospel.

 

[zerinus]

Dear Zerinous

Here is a writing dated pre LDS- Apostasy below. The Mass, the Eucharist is the center of our Faith, it is our faith. It is Christianity. It is the very reason you or I can even whisper the name of Jesus. The Catholic Mass catholicmass.org/english.html has brought his one death and resurrection to even you, to all who proclaim Christ as their Savior. It takes place every two minutes on earth 24 hours every day, 7 days a week, 365 days and nights each years except on Good Friday. It is the most humbling of places to be. It is the only place to be if you truly desire Christ to be at the very center of your life. God at the very center of your life. To say that it needed restoring is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If you keep on learning and studying and get closer to understanding Apostolic Confession then to understanding the receiving of Christ blood, body, soul and divinity in Holy Communion there may be no turning back for you unless you can pick up your Cross and follow Him. As one who was raised Mormon I would say I never could have imagined such a cross in my life. It is authentic and it will not let you down if you can stand at the foot of His cross and forgive, ask to be forgiven. utahmission.com/pages/Forgive.html If only my parents had known God
Rich / www.utahmission.com

*St. Justin describes the Mass. (The year is 150 A.D.; he is a martyr who was beheaded in 165 at Rome Italy) *

“The people gathered together on Sunday, the ‘Lord’s Day’ participated in prayers and hymns, and listened to readings from the Old Testament and from the writings of the apostles. Then as always, bread and wine and water were offered and the words of Jesus at the Last Supper were prayed by the one presiding. The people received the body and blood of Christ, and the Holy Communion was brought to the sick. A collection was taken for the poor and the needy.”
St. Paul* wrote*: “For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” (1 Cor 11:26) He also wrote: “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body for we all partake of the one loaf” (1 Cor 11:16-17 and 1 Cor 12).

Through the centuries, the Mass has remained fully intact.
(1 Cor 11:26).

St. Ignatius of Antioch’s Letter to the Smyrnaeans on the Mass. (The year is 110 A.D.)

He became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He received the martyr’s crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena. He wrote:

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not profess that the Eucharist (Jn 6:66) is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”
It is the Mass that has brought Christ into the present. It is the sign given as you contemplate all of chapter 6 in John’s gospel.

Actually that is not true. The Mass has changed. It used to be a very simple ceremony of breaking bread in memory of the sacrifice of the Son of God. All the paraphernalia and chantings and trappings were added later. The theology of it also has changed. It was performed in remembrance of the flesh and blood of Christ. The emblems were not literally changed into His flesh and blood. You have also change the theology of it by turning it into a literal sacrifice. The priest literally sacrifices Christ on the altar every time. That is not how it was originally intended to be performed.

zerinus

 

[BartBurk]

Actually that is not true. The Mass has changed. It used to be a very simple ceremony of breaking bread in memory of the sacrifice of the Son of God. All the paraphernalia and chantings and trappings were added later. The theology of it also has changed. It was performed in remembrance of the flesh and blood of Christ. The emblems were not literally changed into His flesh and blood. You have also change the theology of it by turning it into a literal sacrifice. The priest literally sacrifices Christ on the altar every time. That is not how it was originally intended to be performed.

zerinus

Prove what you have written. The Bible and the Early Church Fathers contradict you. What are you basing your statement on?

 

[rich123456]

The Mass is of Christ, the central act has remained the same. The real Apostasy is Mormon, in not accepting what Christians have accepted for 2 thousand years because peer pressure has been the center of family. In blind acceptance of that which has been deeply distorted. Forsaken your own intelligence out of loyalty to something not even understood. The very Miracle that has brought Christ into the present, expressed many times. You say, and many have said that are un willing to learn with an honest heart that the Priest Sacrifices Christ at every Mass. (does a prophet lie? to make a point. Who is the father of all lies?) You could not be more blatantly mistaken. Your ignorance shines bright to a learned Catholic. You have not learned these things on your own, you have accepted others in their distortion of fact. Here is the real Apostasy in reality of authentic Christianity. Read it all in context, the whole chapter of John 6.

John 6:66-67 - many disciples leave Jesus, rejecting this literal interpretation that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. At this point, these disciples really thought Jesus had lost His mind. If they were wrong about the literal interpretation, why wouldn’t Jesus, the Great Teacher, have corrected them? Why didn’t Jesus say, “Hey, come back here, I was only speaking symbolically!”? Because they understood correctly. The 12 stayed with Him.

The Church has always taught that Jesus died once for all (1 Peter 3:18). God is acting outside of time here, making the one sacrifice present at different locations in time. What Jesus accomplished once for all on the Cross 2,000 years ago has the power to save us today. His work of salvation is just as real today as it was then (see Gal. 2:19-21 and 2 Cor. 5:14-15) Satan hates the Mass and the Cross because they are perpetual reminders of his defeat.

Spend some time here:

God Bless
www.utahmission.com

 

[Pjs2ejs]

Zerinus,

Do you have bread and wine like Jesus and the early Christians did at their Sunday gathering? I don’t remember the Mormons using wine. But maybe I was wrong. I wouldn’t want to accuse the Mormons of changing anything from the early church celebration at Sunday service.

You have said the early christians had a very simple gathering and the Catholic church added all the stuff. Can you give me some of your sources for exactly how the Sunday service was conducted? You seem so sure of your information.

 

[PaulDupre]

The priest literally sacrifices Christ on the altar every time.

The priest does not “sacrifice Christ on the altar every time”. That is a common misconception. The one eternal sacrifice on Calvary is made present to us and offered to the Father anew at each mass.

Remember that Christ’s suffering and death on the cross, like everything else that ever happened or will happen, though it seems like past and future to us is eternally present to God. The same eternal event can be offered to the Father in real-time every day.

Paul

 

[Jerusha]

If anything, the Danites were (are) practitioners of such a perversion of Chrstianity, by practicing “blood atonement”.

Paul, I enjoy your posts. :yup:

 

[zerinus]

Prove what you have written. The Bible and the Early Church Fathers contradict you. What are you basing your statement on?

The Bible. This is how the Lord instituted the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper. There was no theatre and no fanfare. All the theatrics were added later, after the Church had apostatized:

Matthew 26:

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 14:

22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.

24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Luke 22:

14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

That set the pattern that the early Christians followed in celebrating the sacrament. That is what the Apostles had taught the to do:

1 Corinthians 11:

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew * the Lord’s death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.*

There were no chantings, no theatre, no new sacrifice, none of the paraphernalia of the Mass. And it was done in remembrance of the Lord’s sufferings. There was no suggestion of the emblems turning to flesh and blood. All of that was added after the Apostasy.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

In relation to the above post, I forgot to mention that the last quote, from 1 Corinthians 11, was written by Paul in order to chasten the Corinthian saints because they had already began to corrupt the Sacrament. The three preceding verses make that clear:

1 Corinthians 11:

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

The sacrament of the Lord’s Supper began to be corrupted by the Christians at a very early stage, when the Apostasy was beginning to affect the church.

zerinus

 

[Erich]

There were no chantings, no theatre, no new sacrifice, none of the paraphernalia of the Mass.

No chantings, no paraphernalia? Have you forgotten what the Last Supper started out as?

Hint: Matthew 26:17-20

17 On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples approached Jesus and said, “Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?”
18 He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The teacher says, “My appointed time draws near; in your house I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples.”’” 19 The disciples then did as Jesus had ordered, and prepared the Passover. 20 When it was evening, he reclined at table with the Twelve.

It should be noted that Jesus participated in activities that were already innovations from the Passover as recorded in Exodus. For example, the first Passover meal was eaten in haste, but by the time of Jesus the custom was to recline or lean in token of one’s freedom. Yet, it goes almost without saying that even though there were alterations, these changes were not anti-Scriptural.

And it was done in remembrance

of the Lord’s sufferings.

When you celebrate Thanksgiving, are you simply remembering the first Thanksgiving, or participating in the Thanksgiving? At the Last Supper, were Christ and the Apostles simply remembering the Passover, or were they actually participating in the Passover?

Hint: Exodus 12:24-27

24 “You shall observe this as a perpetual ordinance for yourselves and your descendants.
25 Thus, you must also observe this rite when you have entered the land which the LORD will give you as he promised.
26 When your children ask you, ‘What does this rite of yours mean?’
27 you shall reply, ‘This is the Passover sacrifice of the LORD, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt; when he struck down the Egyptians, he spared our houses.’”

Remember that by the time the Israelites reached the Promised Land, the LORD had already smitten those who sinned by having Aaron fashion the golden calf almost 40 years earlier … clearly, anyone celebrating the Passover then (as now) who refers to “our houses” (as directed to do so by v27) obviously cannot be referring to his own house in Egypt at the time.

There was no suggestion of the emblems turning to flesh and blood. All of that was added after the Apostasy.

So, now we know exactly when the Apostasy occurred… somewhere between Matthew 26:18

He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The teacher says, “My appointed time draws near; in your house I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples.”’”

and eight verses later in Matthew 26:26

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

Thanks for clearing that up for us

 

[BartBurk]

The Bible. This is how the Lord instituted the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper. There was no theatre and no fanfare. All the theatrics were added later, after the Church had apostatized:

Matthew 26:

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 14:

22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.

24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Luke 22:

14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

That set the pattern that the early Christians followed in celebrating the sacrament. That is what the Apostles had taught the to do:

1 Corinthians 11:

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew * the Lord’s death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.*

There were no chantings, no theatre, no new sacrifice, none of the paraphernalia of the Mass. And it was done in remembrance of the Lord’s sufferings. There was no suggestion of the emblems turning to flesh and blood. All of that was added after the Apostasy.

zerinus

Of course we remember Jesus during the Eucharistic service. But how can you ignore the obvious statements about the body and blood of Christ in these packages. You have a weak argument and no tradition which supports your interpretation. We still have the Bible and the Early Church Fathers. It’s as if you are blind when you read these passages.

And you might want to look at 3 Nephi 20:8 where Joseph Smith copied the New Testament account of the Eucharist:

“And he said unto them: He that eateth this bread eateth of my body to his soul; and he that drinketh of this wine drinketh of my blood to his soul; and his soul shall never hunger nor thirst, but shall be filled.”

 

[rich123456]

For Zenius

We do exactly what Jesus asked us to do. When He looks to us and asks does this offend you? We say no as you have the words of eternal life. His words leave no room to believe anything else. We do this in memory of Him. We do what He asked us to do. We feed off of Him. Receiving Holy Communion is a Miracle given to us. We receive Christ in us in Holy Communion as He is our spiritual food. It is at the table that eyes are open as to whom Christ is. His one sacrifice continues on even today for one like you to have your own eyes open. Jesus is not our big brother who died for us. He is our Lord and Our God who died for us, the eternal Son of all of creation. We come to know that we have been created by Him as He created all things seen and unseen. He being the loved within the One Holy Trinity as the Godhead is love. . It is his very breath that sustains us. He being the only thing Holy about us. All good comes from Him and he shares it with us as Created beings. He being Love in which he shares with us and only asks us to share His love with others. Love not being possessed by us rather love that possesses us. These things come to light with a Christian Baptism, with the Holy Spirit, with Eucharist. Not just Catholics but all Christians around the world. Christian / Christ in us. One life giver who is life itself. Our goal being to be with Him forever. You find Christ at the center of all things that exist including nothing at all, you have found His Church. We being the Cross upon His back. The lost lamb being carried home.

Hope that helps
Praying for you
www.utahmission.com

 

[PaulDupre]

There were no chantings, no theatre, no new sacrifice, none of the paraphernalia of the Mass. And it was done in remembrance of the Lord’s sufferings. There was no suggestion of the emblems turning to flesh and blood. All of that was added after the Apostasy.

zerinus

Z,
When was the last time you attended mass?
Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

“…paraphernalia of the Mass.”

Sort of the like the paraphernalia of the Hebrew temple and synagogue which was commanded by God through revelation to Moses. Zerinus should read the Old Testament and see that it was not until the 19th century (in America) that any Judeo-Christian religion did not use paraphernalia. The Mormons just imitated the American Protestants.

Mormons have no sense of history, biblical or otherwise.

Paul

 

[Pjs2ejs]

Zerinus,

Do you have bread and wine like Jesus and the early Christians did at their Sunday gathering? I don’t remember the Mormons using wine. But maybe I was wrong. I wouldn’t want to accuse the Mormons of changing anything from the early church celebration at Sunday service. Now that I think about it, you must have wine because you wouldn’t do anything contrary to what Jesus asked us to do.

You have said the early Christians had a very simple gathering and the Catholic church added all the “stuff”. Can you give me some of your sources for exactly how the Sunday service was conducted? You seem so sure of your information.

 

[swariffin]

YOU SAID: "God “gave us” the Bible through His Chosen prophets and Apostles. The Bible was written by the Jews. Both the Old and the New Testaments were written by the Jews. The canon of the Old Testament was well known and established among the Jews long before the Catholic Church came along. For the Catholic Church to lay exclusive claim to the Bible, would be like the Jews claiming the exclusive right to the Old Testament!"

Dear Pjs2ejs,

Luke was not a Jew, but surely He was a christian.

 

[swariffin]

In relation to the above post, I forgot to mention that the last quote, from 1 Corinthians 11, was written by Paul in order to chasten the Corinthian saints because they had already began to corrupt the Sacrament. The three preceding verses make that clear:

1 Corinthians 11:

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

The sacrament of the Lord’s Supper began to be corrupted by the Christians at a very early stage, when the Apostasy was beginning to affect the church.

zerinus

Dear Zerinus,

What 1 Corinthian 11:21 means to you with respect to your posting?

 

[BartBurk]

Zerinus,

Do you have bread and wine like Jesus and the early Christians did at their Sunday gathering? I don’t remember the Mormons using wine. But maybe I was wrong. I wouldn’t want to accuse the Mormons of changing anything from the early church celebration at Sunday service. Now that I think about it, you must have wine because you wouldn’t do anything contrary to what Jesus asked us to do.

You have said the early Christians had a very simple gathering and the Catholic church added all the “stuff”. Can you give me some of your sources for exactly how the Sunday service was conducted? You seem so sure of your information.

Mormons think God exempted them from using wine. See:

scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/27